PT AOTC without bad dialogue and romance scenes. How good is AOTC for you now?

If you are going to compare what Anakin did to cops killing those people then the cops would not just kill those that did the killing but also their entire family and all their neighbors.
Say 50 people in total. Including women and children.
I think that some would have a thing or two to say about that.

.

That what Anakin was vengeance that I agree with. But Padme can show sympathy but also suggest that Anakin talk to Obi-Wan about this.
Anakin did not drop a bomb on a village, he cut down every last person he could find. He searched the camp for people to kill and chased after those that tried to run.
That makes it different.
Plus Anakin is powerful, if he looses it again, he could do a lot of damage.

We do have the concept of warcrimes, that some actions, even in war, are not deemed acceptable.
Sure far from all that commit atrocities face the consequences.

Anakin knew what he did was wrong and yet he took no steps to do anything about it.
He did not tell Obi-Wan or the Jedi. He kept it from them.
And Padme never suggest talking to anyone, to get help.
Keeping quiet about a person's problems isn't always doing them a favor. Instead it can be enabling.

Kylo Ren says he is being pulled towards the light, that he is conflicted and yet he keeps doing evil things.
Is he not evil?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I guess if you want characters to state exactly what they're feeling and thinking with literally no subtext, then yeah it's good dialogue...

 

Of all the dialogue, I think that dialogue isn't really much of a concept of stating exactly what he's feeling. I think that dialogue isn't particularly bad.

 

Indeed. Her reaction in the garage is meant to contrast with the scene in her (Naboo) bedroom. She kept a picture on the wall of the children she was unable to save. Clearly she doesn't take the death of children lightly.

 

One of the crucial things of the dialogue is the context. This particular part fits in, so yes, that's why it works. If you take out some random quote (in general, not particularly this one) and analyze it as such without the context, is useless. Like "There’s comfort yet; they are assailable" which is quote from classic drama yet out of the context it looks rather odd and nonsensical. And yes, people most of the time say straight things and don't recite poems a la James Joyce metatext and subtext so if you expect that...well, is rare in the movies. Although this particular quote is obviously not literal.

 

I think someone can be slaughtered in a battle.

 

It makes sense if you turn your brain off.

It makes sense that Padme would marry Anakin if you turn your brain off.

 

The above are examples of why I am so frustrated by this attitude regarding Padme. So many people have criticized her character for not being ideal or not saying "the right thing" to Anakin. She was never perfect. Padme had her own flaws. And according to the movie's novelization, she had no problems with the fate of that Tusken village, due to her own prejudices and what happened to Shmi. I'm not making an excuse for Padme. Her behavior was wrong. But it was not about Padme being badly written. It was about her being flawed in her own right. And for some reason, many fans still continue to harbor this unrealistic belief that she was supposed to be ideal.

 

All that happens in the adult novel is that Padme tells Anakin "And they earned your anger".


"They're dead. Every single one of them."
He looked at her then, and it seemed to her as if he had suddenly returned to her from somewhere far, far away.
"You did battle…" she started to reason.
He ignored her. "Not just the men," he went on. "And the men are the only fighters among the Tuskens. No, not just them. The women and the children, too." His face contorted, as if he was teetering between anger and guilt.
"They're like animals!" he said suddenly. "And I slaughtered them like animals! I hate them!"
Padme sat back a bit, too stunned to respond. She knew that Anakin needed her to say something or do something, but she was paralyzed. He wasn't even looking at her - he was just staring off into the distance. But then he lowered his head and began to sob, his lean, strong shoulders shaking. Padme pulled him in and hugged him close, never wanting to let go. She still didn't know what to say.
"Why do I hate them?" Anakin asked her.
"Do you hate them, or do you hate what they did to your mother?"
"I hate them!" he insisted.
"And they earned your anger, Anakin."
He looked up at her, his eyes wet with tears. "But it was more than that," he started to say, and then he shook his head and buried his face against the softness of her breast.
A moment later, he looked back up, his expression showing that he was determined to explain. "I didn't… I couldn't…" He held one hand up outstretched, then clenched it into a fist. "I couldn't control myself," he admitted. "I… I don't want to hate them - I know that there is no place for hatred. But I just can't forgive them!"
"To be angry is to be human," Padme assured him.
"To control your anger is to be a Jedi," Anakin was quick to reply, and he pulled away from her and stood up, turning to face the open door and the desert beyond.
Padme was right there beside him, draping her arms about him. "Shhh," she said softly. She kissed him gently on the cheek. "You're human."
"No, I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this." He looked at her directly, shaking his head. "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry."
"You're like everybody else," Padme said. She tried to draw closer, but Anakin held himself back from her.
He couldn't hold the pose of defiance for long, though, before he broke down again in sobs.
Padme was there to hold him and rock him and tell him that everything would be all right.


At no point in her inner monologue does she imply that she's OK with the whole village being destroyed. And it's clear from the junior novelization by Patricia C. Wrede, that she wasn't.


"I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. Not just the men. The women and the children too." He looked up at last, his face working, and Padme had to force herself not to back away from the look in his eyes. "They're like animals," he spat, "and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them!" Then the angry mask crumbled away, and he broke into sobs.
Without thinking, Padme stepped forward and cradled him in her arms. Part of her was still shocked and horrified - Women and children? My Anakin killed them all? - and she knew she ought to tell him so. But she couldn't bear to add to his grief.
"Why do I hate them?" Anakin stammered between sobs. I didn't - I couldn't - I couldn't control myself. I don't want to hate them ... but I just can't forgive them."
"To be angry is to be human," Padme said.
"To control your anger is to be a Jedi." Anakin sounded lost, and she could feel him shaking. That's it - he's afraid they'll tell him he can't be a Jedi, she thought. But Jedi aren't superhuman. He knows he shouldn't have done this. They'll understand.
"Shhh," she told him, rocking him gently.
"No," Anakin argued. "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this. I'm sorry - I'm so sorry."
"You're human. You're like everyone else. Shhhh."

 

I think the key for Padme is that Anakin immediately feels great remorse for what he did and she understands his pain having had been there when he was separated from his mom at 9.

 

And I can get frustrated with this type of defense,"Oh you just wanted the character to be perfect."
I have seen this with TLJ and how Luke acted in that film. I took issue with that and didn't think it fit his character and others have defended it by saying "Oh you just wanted a perfect, flawless Luke."
No, I thought that his actions did not fit how he had been established in the OT:

One can have issues with the writing even when not expecting "perfect" characters.

In Padme's case, she had not been established as bigoted, biased against non-humans or such things.
In TPM she reached out and made a connection between the Naboo and the Gungans.
So for her to go "Anakin killed children, well as long as they were non-human children then I don't care."
That I don't think fits with her character.

Also there is consistency.
Padme was told that Anakin killed children in AotC and had a very minor reaction. Then in RotS she is told that Anakin has killed children again but this time, she is very distraught and does not believe it possible.
She knows that Anakin is capable of doing this so why is she so upset the second time?

Then we have Dooku. At the start of AotC Padme accuses Dooku of being behind her attempted murder but she offers no reasons or explanation as to why. And not long after, when talking to Anakin and Obi-Wan, she says that she wants to know who is trying to kill her. She already said that she thinks Dooku is behind it. So she knows or suspects who is doing this. The dialogue is odd. This would be a good time to talk about why she suspects Dooku and we can get some feedback from Anakin and Obi-Wan.
The only reason why Dooku is brought up in the first scene is because the character does not show up until about half-way through the film so they needed to mention him and establish a little about him.
Regardless if it makes any sense.
It also is odd that Padme thinks that the seps can be negotiated with while at the same time their leader is trying to assassinate her.

@dagenspear

What would you call what happened at Wounded Knee? A battle or a massacre?

In this case, since Anakin makes a point of saying that he did not just kill the men but the women and children as well. Then I think he is making it clear that he killed those that didn't fight as well as the warriors. And since he didn't use a bomb or something, he had a lightsabre and thus would have cut down each and every person he killed. Those that tried to run, those that hid, small children or even infants.
That, to me, makes it a slaughter and not a battle.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The way you people over analyzing the AOTC can be used to destroy every OT movie.

1.Why the rebels never tried to evacuate Yavin 4 at the final battle ?
2.Why Vader was never punished for choosing to pursue Han and Leia instead of the rebels ?
3.Why Vader never force gripped Luke when he decided to kill himself ?
4.Why Luke endangers the whole Rebellion mission at episode 6 by surrendering himself to Vader ?(Which easily gave imperials a clue that rebels are planning to attack the Death Star shield and made them deploy more soldiers at Endor.It also made the Empire to gather all of it's fleet there.)
5.Why no Death Star turret managed to kill Han when he sneaked on Vader and why no one ever informed Vader that "A new ship is coming at you at 6'o clock lord Vader !" ?
6.Why the imperials tried so hard at killing the trio at the Death Star while according to the story they were told to "let them escape." ? Falcon could get destroyed by 4 tie fighters that never held back. And stormtroopers tried very hard to capture the heroes and fired at them at every possible situation.
7.Why Luke should even feel sympathetic for his father ? Vader did nothing for him at all other than bringing him and his friends pain. And yet from the moment that he revealed that he is Luke's father, Luke instantly falls in love with a father whom killed 2 of his best friends.(Biggs and Ben)
etc.

Finding story issues within a movie isn't a big deal at all.

 

Why does Padme have to be this bastion of perfection? Or some ideal feminine figure? Leia wasn't. Neither was Rey. Or do many believe that the other two were?

Actually, Luke was horrified when he first learned that Vader was Anakin Skywalker. To the point that he had refused Vader's suggestion of a team up. He also went out of his way to speak with both Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghost about this revelation before he set out to "save" Anakin. All of this took a year. Nor was it instant.

Who in that Tusken village took part in the torture of Shmi? I've always wondered.

 

I wasn't saying Anakin engaged in battle. While I think with some he may have fought, I wouldn't suggest it was like that. Based on the situation presented by Lars' statement of them being vicious violent animals, I wouldn't necessarily 100% assume Padme couldn't see the situation as a battle ensuing. I'm not stating that's what happened. But I think it's not an out of nowhere option.

 

Thank you.

 

But given that Anakin says that he killed not just the men but the women and children as well. And he killed ALL of them. Then that Padme might think that it started as a battle, with the warriors but then Anakin searched the whole camp and killed everyone he could find. That makes it quite a bit different from a battle.
And I find it very unlikely that Padme would think that small children or even infants would run and attack Anakin.
Instead it was a slaughter, which is the word Anakin himself uses.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Based on the Lars statement of them being animals, in theory, I think someone could see, even something that's referred to as a slaughter, being a battle, even with the women and the children, in theory. In the movie, Anakin doesn't give details of it. I think Padme doesn't really know anything about the sandpeople.

 

Lars never called them animals. He called them monsters. And mindless - which is self-evidently not true, so the "monsters" bit shouldn't be trusted either.

Anakin said that they were like animals.

He said enough.

 

Padme reached out in a moment for help. In the movie Jar Jar accuses the Naboo of not liking the Gungans. I think their leader says they think they're better than the Gungans or something like that.Also, I think she may not know much about the sand people other than what she hears there.

In my opinion, I've seen this as Padme being in disbelief due to her being pregnant and not wanting to, with them about to have a child, would do that. I also think there's potential for her to view the 2 with different context, in regards to what's happened in the 2 situations. And I don't know if she doesn't believe it's possible, so much as, to me, that she doesn't want to believe it's possible.

I don't necessarily think it's an inconsistency for her to suspect Dooku, but still want to know whose doing it, to be sure, if that's the intention writing wise.

If Dooku is the leader of the separatists, I don't know if it's unbelievable for her to suspect him. Not to say it's explained strongly.

If we're to buy into the idea that Padme doesn't want war and such, in my opinion, I wouldn't necessarily think say she'd be against negotiation.

I think that shows what I think Padme hears in regards to the sand people. She hears that they're mindless and monsters.

Maybe. But is what he said enough that Padme would think that Anakin slaughtering them all wasn't in battle?

 

She's a diplomat. Smart diplomats would be expected to be aware that there are two sides to every story.

 

Maybe so. Maybe in this situation she doesn't regard it situation like that. She's not bartering a peace treaty between them and the sand people and I think she sees what's happened to Shmi. Even if, to her, there was another side, she may not have been able to ask it, had there been survivors.

 

What happened to Shmi is not relevant to the question of whether Anakin's killing children was morally wrong or not.

Two wrongs don't make a right, after all.

 

I wasn't discussing the morality of it. I was pointing out a potential perspective, from Padme, on creatures that are called mindless vicious monsters, who killed Shmi, seemingly over a period of time, and how she may see the situation, and whether or not she'd see even the children as being something that would attack someone. I wouldn't suggest Padme would think Anakin was right, more that she may not necessarily see the situation, based on everything the movie shows her see and hear, as Anakin walks into their camp and murders all of them in anger.

 

If Padme goes that far into "giving Anakin the benefit of the doubt" and assuming the worst about Tusken children, after hearing his words and seeing how guilty he is and how he feels he's "better than this" - then there's something fundamentally problematic in her character.

There are reasons why many readers/watchers don't like Protagonist-Centered-Morality.

 

I'm not talking about morality. Anakin feeling guilty I think doesn't actually make a difference in the situation. I think someone can feel guilty for killing in anger or even killing in general. I'm not stating factually that she'd assume the worst in the tuskens or the best in Anakin. Creatures can fight back and not be the worst. Anakin can battle these creatures in anger and kill them and not be the best. And Padme can take the info she has on them at face value. In a hypothetical scenario, say, where Anakin may not have flown off the handle in rage and murdered an entire camp of tuskens, he could have lashed out in anger against those who did it and the others attacked him and he killed them in battle.