PT Are Sith inherently evil?

Let's look at the sith code line by line

"Peace is a lie"-strife and conflict do bring devastation but they also bring growth and progress

"there is only passion"- all sentient beings have emotion and that is a good thing

"through passion I gain strength"-even in RL think about how this is true the ballplayer that wants to make it has to get up every day and show passionately day in day out he or she wants it. Passion is the fuel of growth

"through strength I gain power"-this is rather obvious to be strong is to be powerful, strength whether physical, mental, or spiritual is the stepping stone to power

"through power I gain victory"-power in any sense and in any context is the path to victory against whatever or whoever stands in one's way

"through victory my chain's are broken"-this is Nietzchean to gain victory over one's failures, one's enemies, one's imperfections these things are the metaphorical chains gaining victory is the shattering of these chains

"the force will free me"-here is the non-nietzchean part, the deeper a sith grows in the dark side, the more he surrenders himself or herself the truly more free he becomes.

 

But taken as a whole that is essentially a massively extended and philosophical way of saying that Might Makes Right. Power is the only thing that matters. The Sith Code is not necessarily inherently evil, but it is by it's very nature extremely selfish and lends itself very, very easily to ''justifying'' (in the Sith's mind) all sorts of atrocities and crimes.

The Sith/Jedi dialectic is not necessarily as much one about bad/good or dark/light as it is self/others. The Jedi code is about accepting that you are just one part of something bigger, using power to benefit as many as possible. The Sith code is about making yourself as powerful as possible. Both Sith and Jedi have ideas of immortality using the Force - but where the Sith see the path as using the force to ensure they live forever in a physical form, the Jedi's equivalent is shedding your physical body entirely when it dies.

 

The Jedi at heart believe the Jedi should submit to the force, the Sith believe the force is a donkey to be broken into submission.

 

I disagree.

All Force-users submit to the Force, and the Sith do not seek to "break" the Force into submission. They use it and submit to it as much as the Jedi do, though they may be more daring in their use of it.

 

The Sith philosophy is like our dark or black magick; power used for selfish purposes, the left-hand path is forever soaked in malicious intentions and never for good. Evil is subjective, but at its very core the Sith are selfish whereas the Jedi are selfless.

 

I disagree.

The Sith do not believe in following the will of the Force; their goal is to impose their will on the Force. They bask in the dark side but they certainly to no "submit" to the Force. Even they know they cannot be a slave to their emotions, they must use their negative emotions to improve their focus.

 

I think the argument hinges on whether or not there is a "will" of the Force. I do not believe so, and I feel the Force is a neutral..uh...force, lol...and therefore doesn't have a certain Will that you either follow or disobey.

The Will of the Force is Jedi rationale, in my opinion, lol.

 

I have always viewed the force as at least semi-sentient.

 

Which is the same as destiny vs free will. That equation can be just as easily rephrased as the force's will vs free will.

 

It is, at least in a sense. That's why Lucas introduced the dichotomy of the Cosmic Force and the Living Force. The Cosmic Force is more like a capital-G God with a will and an intentional mind as found in the Judeo-Christian tradition, while the Living Force is more like the non-intentional, impersonal life-force found in Eastern traditions. But at the end of the day, they're both part of the same unified whole, which means that the "will" of the Cosmic Force is in fact identical to the free-flowing web of mortal consciousness and choice which defines and shapes the Living Force. They're really just two ways of looking at the same thing. It's essentially a reflection of the way Lucas himself views all the world religions as being part of one greater universal truth.

 

I think in SW everyone has a destiny and whether a character choose to follow that destiny is up to them. For example Anakin rejected his destiny to bring balance to the Force in RotS and chose to join the Sith instead but ultimately he did fulfill his destiny in RotJ by destroying the Sith and bringing balance to the Force.

 

The Sith remember are a religious organization. Heck in Legends material they banished "heretics" from their ranks.

But they emphasize self-ascension, and mastery.

 

Hail President Skroob!

 

I agree with this. Unless you're like poor Darth Maul, who was given no choice.

 

If you are a true Sith you're definitely evil. Sith use fear, hate and anger to grant them power.

 

The basic question remains what is the definition for evil.

I for one wholeheartedly concur with psychiatrist M. Scott Peck who defined evil as militant ignorance (I believe 'militant disregard' would also be applicable).

Then we have the evolution concept of "survival of the fittest". Brought to its uncomfortable conclusion (IMHO) I'd say that the more people are evil and selfish, the more they ensure their survival which often Comes at the expense of others.

Essentially, it's a natural concept but inevitably carries the tag of "evil", hence Yoda's "illuminated beings we are, not that crude matter" in ESB to provide a clear but IMHO necessary distinction.

 

It seems a little unfair to identity selfishness, which admittedly can be taken too far but is probably necessary to a degree and isn't necessarily malevolent to others, or fear and anger as evilness rather than something like hate. Fear and anger or greed can indeed lead to hate and suffering but the connection is only possible and probably is a long road.

I suppose a Sith could be honorable and productive rather than evil if he limited himself to righteous anger or fair competition although given the depths of emotion it could be difficult to draw the right lines.

But how do the Jedi deduce that the Force has a will that they follow and how do the films support the notion that it has one (and the Jedi follow it)?

 

CLee, you're right. It isn't explicitly stated in the films like it is in some other EU materials. One of my faves is the CW-comic "Seige of Saulecami" where Quinlan Vos has a beautiful monologue titled "If the Force wills."

In regards to the films, the hint that the Jedi believe in a "Will" of the Force:
- In the opening of TPM Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan to be mindful of the living Force; and to Anakin that the midi-chlorians "talk" to the Jedi. What else could the Force be saying to them other than it's Will/intentions?
- The prophecy; the Jedi seem to have a fascination with pre-ordained destiny. ie the Force has selected Anakin, so he MUST do blah blah blah
- Qui-Gon, the Jedi who had the deepest connection with the "living Force," is the first among the modern Jedi to achieve ghost-status. He was also the only among them who unequivocally followed what he perceived to be the Will of the Force. The Force had Chosen Anakin, and Qui-Gon would see to it that he was trained, with or without the Council's permission.

That's all I can really think of on that.

 

Qui-Gon is indeed presented as someone who has a preoccupation with the Living Force, but I believe the part of the Force which has a will is still firmly identified with the Cosmic Force. I think the thing with Qui-Gon is that he emphasizes the Living Force in his teachings simply because he believes the modern Jedi have become overly detached from it--but he isn't a dogmatist, and he places just as much importance on the Cosmic Force, as evidenced by his ardent belief in prophecy.

Really, I think Qui-Gon is presented as a proponent of a balanced approach to the Force more than anything. It's just that he never happens to mention the Cosmic Force by name, even though his steadfast belief in it (by virtue of his belief in the Chosen One) is actually a major part of his character in the film. This makes sense, because achieving such a state of balance is essential to the feat of transcending death which he accomplishes at the end of the film. It's also why he's presented as having such an affinity for the midi-chlorians: They're the embodiment of balance between the Cosmic and the Living, and are in fact the agents through which Qui-Gon is eventually able to return to the latter realm from the former.

 

Qui Gon Jinn was very much interested in the present or the Living force instead of constantly scrying and searching the future as Cosmic Force oriented Jedi often are.

At the same time he recognized the importance of prophecy and future events.

 

I'd say no. A Sith Draws from emotion and many emotions can be good, but sith tend to lean on darker emotions like Fear and hate

 

The Sith code after all does advocate the liberation of the individual.

 

You're definitely evil if you're Sith.

 

Well the Jedi aren't exactly purely good.

 

I think the fact Jedi can become Force ghosts proves the Force is a living thing. The Force is something the Sith use more as a tool, bending it to their will. Such as making kyber crystals bleed to get red lightsabres.