Full Series Asajj Ventress in the Clone Wars discussion thread

Wow, yeah, you're right. Palpatine is 20 years younger than Dooku! I guess we're just so used to thinking of the Emperor as this ancient thing, that we never considered that the man himself is not that old.

 

Given how the TCW team have insisted that Ventress will be a very different place by the end of Season 3, I'm reasonably confident that they're not going to press a reset button at the end of her arc. Also, how great is it that they're willing to tackle the inevitable 'Dooku/Ventress betrayal' so relatively early in TCW's run? Like most people, I was convinced that it would happen during the latter half of the final season simply to explain Ventress' absence from ROTS.

Makes me wonder what GL has in store for us Season 4 onwards.

 

Ventress in a different place eh? I can only imagine...

She started out on Teth... traveled to Rodia, Kamino and Dathomir, now, she's over there

 

I am wondering if season 3 will kind of serve as a wrapup for this section of The Clone Wars (that started with the movie). Storylines such as Ventress as Dooku's assasin and Ahsoka's current phase of life seem like they will be changed considerably by the end of the season. It would be similar to how ROTS and ROTJ ended their respective trilogies. Like ROTS though, season 3 would not be the end of the overall storyline.

This would explain a bit of what we heard about the show jumping forward chronologically towards the end of the upcoming season. It reminds me of the jump between ROTS and ANH (though on a smaller time scale). By the start of season 4, we would have started the next section which could last two or three seasons before moving forward again, continuing to remove more layers and explore new territory. In the end, it would be like several shows in one. It would allow the show to continue for a long time.

 

Ohhhh I would LOVE that! Sort of a second phase for the show starting in season 4. Assajj is out of the picture, Ahsoka has decidedly changed from a brat to a proper Jedi, the clones use Phase 2 armour, Jedi such as Adi Gallia and Eeth Koth die to make way for the new ones like Bultar Swan and Agen Kolar, Obi-Wan wears less armour. If this is what they mean by "moving the chronology along" it would be awesome. Even though we can't really tell the passing of time through the individual episodes, if they made these "phases" then at least we would have big blocks that work in chronological order.

 

Yeah, I too would love to see season 3 as a sort of "crossroad" in the series.

 

Personally, I'd like it more if the show went from point A to point B on a straight line. No jumping around, no shortcuts...

 

It's going to bother me to no end if Dooku actually follows Sidious' order to eliminate her, or even sincerely tries to.

The Sith are bound by personal oaths of loyalty (as in ROTS) to one another, and Lucas has established that once the apprentice surpasses the master, that bond is broken. I'm a bit of a history geek by hobby, and I'm reminded of the Sengoku Jidai period of Japan, in which samurai, despite any sworn oaths of loyalty to their masters, often did not hesitate to overthrow their superiors by military force if an opportunity arose. The bond created by the sworn oath is only as strong as the lord. In Episode III, Anakin gets on his knees and swears his allegiance to Palpatine, but by the time he's on Mustafar he is convinced that he has surpassed Palpatine and tells Padme that he can overthrow Palpatine. Already breaking the bond (which gets reformed after Anakin is crippled and can no longer challenge Palpatine).

Dooku is sitting on top of a huge power base and aside from occasional hologram transmissions from Sidious, he is able to operate away from the eyes of his lord. Sidious may be the nominal leader of the CIS, as he is Dooku's master, but the greatest bonds of loyalty within the CIS seem to belong to Dooku. For instance, there was dissent between Grievous and Nute Gunray once Dooku was killed, and Grievous in talking to Sidious seemed pessimistic of the CIS holding together after Dooku died.

Until the Death Star is completely operational in ANH, Motti even questions how the Emperor will maintain control of the Empire without the bureaucratic Senate giving legitimacy to his rule.

There is no bureaucracy allowing Sidious to control the CIS. He is completely dependent on Dooku's personal loyalty (which is supposed to be fragile among the Sith), and has to trust that Dooku is honoring that bond when he is carrying out the administration of the CIS, away from Sidious' eyes. It would be one thing if Dooku makes a power grab, loses, and then gets the order to execute Asajj as terms of proving his loyalty and re-submitting himself to Palpatine's will. That's what I'm hoping for, though I doubt it will happen.

I'm just hoping that, at some point in the show, Dooku realizes that the economic power, political power, military power, and privacy entrusted to him by Sidious could be used in a serious attempt to usurp power from Sidious. If Sidious preemptively orders Dooku to kill her out of his mistrust of her, then I feel that would rob TCW of the potential for episodes with the Sith actually acting in the manner Lucas describes of them.

 

Well, yes, but Ventress is not a Sith, though. Unless I'm mistaken and that's what you meant.

 

Yes, but she could become one if Dooku overthrew Palpatine and made her his apprentice.

Would she keep her name and become Darth Ventress or would she take new name like Darth Harpy.

 

I mean that the privacy that Dooku has would allow him to train Ventress as his secret apprentice. her Starwars.com databank implies that Dooku has given her some Sith training, but in the series itself we only really ever get Dooku referring to her as an assassin and teasing her with the prospect that he may one day take her as an apprentice if she proves herself worthy.

We know in Season 3 that Sidious orders her execution, but we don't really know the context for why he all of a sudden orders that. Asajj has failed in missions before and Sidious has questioned Dooku's faith in her abilities. For all I know Sidious orders her execution simply because she failed in another mission. I mean Vader didn't tolerate incompetence in the OT, and the Emperor was said to be less forgiving. So that might be the extent of it, but I hope that's not the case.

Lucas describes the Sith as being these self destructive individuals that always want to usurp power from one another, with the apprentice wanting to kill the master. But we've hardly seen it. In TPM, Maul followed orders and never really said a whole lot. In ROTS, Vader talks about overthrowing Palpatine himself after a very short time as a Sith, but that never happens due to him being injured. He talks of overthrowing him again in ESB, but since he never became strong enough to do it by himself, he had to try and recruit Luke. Luke never joined him, so nothing ever happened with that. But then there's Dooku who has been Palpatine's apprentice for over a decade, is allowed greater autonomy than Vader and has the privacy to potentially train Asajj as his secret apprentice, but so far hasn't.

Maul was not a thoroughly developed character in the films, and Vader's attempts at usurping power never went further than rejected offers to his wife and son. But Dooku has Assaj who is more than willing to serve him and become his apprentice and he has the power base to challenge Palpatine. I simply hope that writers realize that the elements are there to actually show a Sith (Dooku) behaving in a traitorous capacity, because it's been alluded to in the films and mentioned behind the scenes, but we've not really seen in culminate into action. And I hope that Dooku makes use of Asajj in a traitorous capacity before she dies or fades out of the story, rather than have her discarded like Vader's "secret apprentice" was (in that he was never actually secret, nor ever intended to become a Sith).

EDIT: I don't think it would be that hard to write an episode in which she is used in an effort for Dooku to usurp Palpatine. For instance, they could write an episode in which Dooku sends Asajj to Coruscant on a mission to assassinate Palpatine. With Asajj and the rest of the CIS not knowing that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same, they'll not think anything of it. Her mission fails, and Palpatine then realizes that Dooku just tried to have him assassinated and in response orders Dooku to execute Asajj in order to repent.

 

In The Force Unleashed, The Emperor orders the death of Starkiller and Vader messes him up, only to save him to fool the Emperor. But I would never take a bond of loyalty to mean much with the Sith. I don't think Palpatine surpassed his master when he killed him in his sleep. It was probably just a dirty trick at the brass tax of it.

 

But that wouldn't make sense on the part of Dooku IMO, I mean he knows Sidious role as a double agent, why would he want to kill him at this stage of the war? Dooku's goal is to turn the Republic into an Empire of man, to do that he is going to need Sidious to achieve that. IMO, it makes more sense for Dooku to defer to his master for the rest of the war, and if his orders includes eliminating Ventress, then so be it. But I would also like to see hints that Dooku would have made a power play after the war.

 

So from footage in this video, can we assume that she dies?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=felyewIWgmw&feature=related

 

I don't see how. Certainly she's in jeopardy, but it doesn't suggest she actually dies, unless I am missing something.

 

I believe there is a short clip of some people carrying her body on a stretcher type thing.

 

Ah, okay. Didn't realize that was her.

 

So should we merge this thread with the (now with more posts) Savage Oppress thread?

Also, thanks for Leland Chee for letting the cat outta the bag on this one! SW fans aren't stupid... we can figure things out lol.

 

I hope that we see Sidious tell Dooku to off Ventress, and Dooku does only a half-hearted effort, and allows Ventress to escape. Maybe Ventress goes to Dathomir and learns more Force skills and then goes back to Dooku to show him what she's learned, and just how powerful she really is. I must say that I am enjoying Ventress in TCW, and, after not seeing her for all of Season 2, I was really happy to see her take a prominent role in ARC Troopers. That scene between her and Grievous was awesome, and I was really glad to see her hold her own against Anakin, and then Force push all of those clones. I personally think that after having difficulties with Savage Opress, Dooku will welcome Ventress back with open arms, and will teach her more Sith tricks, which will eventually result in them trying to kill Palpatine. Ventress will die in the attempt, and then we will get to ROTS, where Dooku is unable to act against Sidious, he has to tread cautiously, as he has no apprentice, and Sidious suspects him of betrayal.

 

I'm skeptical that Sidious will order Ventress' death. If you listen vlosely to the preview, it sounds like they strung together two different lines of dialogue. Or maybe I'm just hoping for good continuity.

 

knowing trailers Sidious is probably talking about someone else... maybe Padmé or Bonteri but it can be Ventress too- still i hope they won't copy TFU too obviously "By taking this girl to youy apprentice- you have betrayed me- now you will kill her or i'll destroy you both!" it would be kinda fun but different choice of words at least would be more believable...

 

I think that if Sidious actually orders Dooku to kill Ventress outright then her time as his apprentice will be over for good. I think she is going to cross the line of how many times she is allowed to fail. Maybe the battle of Sullust (were she is seemingly rejected in the series) and the battle of Boz Pity (where she was rejected in the comics) will be ret coned to be the same battle.

I think she might end up staying with the witches for the rest of the series, being a prominent figure in that group. If she returns as Dookus apprentice after being rejected it would feel too much like they are hitting the reset button.

 

yeah no resetting please.... Ventress is not really that evil what if she turns back (Obi wan could be the key ) and is killed by Dooku, Savage or even Grievous... well too exotic... I think it's Ventress who attacks Dooku with invisibility skill and that dart- with nightsisters- so Ventress will revenge Dooku's betrayal and fails.... i hope battle of Sullust will show sullustans... and maybe ... Tarkin ... well probably not though but you can never know Eriadu is close to sullust- Katie Lucas explored EU and they promised OT-links... greedo and snootles were there of course but.... yeah there were those ot links with cantina and Alderaan....

 

Darth Tyranus obviously is the most powerful Sith apprentice of the entire Bane line. He was in charge of the one side in the Clone Wars, it really makes no sene to see Sidious as the guy directly in charge of the CIS as he almost exclusively acted through Tyranus. I can't imagine Sidious interacting with the CIS Parliament for one thing, nor was anyone in the CIS besides some of the corporation guys (San Hill, Nute Gunray) really familiar with Sidious. Ventress usually is kept away from Sidious by Tyranus, and even Grievous only meets him later in the war I assume.

Darth Sidious really was just a living hologram for most of the CIS guys, and I really don't see him wielding any lasting influence over the CIS without Darth Tyranus. The latter could die late during the war when the CIS really was nearly defeated on all fronts, and its leaders on the run, but Dooku's death during the early/middle Clone Wars would have a devastating effect on Darth Sidious' control of the war.
Dooku was extremely crucial to the whole Separatist movement and Clone Wars scheme, as he had the necessary charisma to feed the anti-Republic sentiment. I don't see Darth Maul fulfilling that part of Darth Sidious, nor any of the corporation guys. And Tyranus' Jedi background also was somewhat important to make the Jedi responsible for the whole war.

I always wanted (and found it stupid that none of this happened) that Darth Tyranus would plot against Darth Sidious. If he had killed Darth Sidious at a time when the CIS was on the advantage, he might have really been able to conquer the Republic by force. Without Sidious coordinating the Republic war effort the Jedi might not have been able to win. And TCW now even confirmed that Tyranus' cronies in the IBC and the Trade Federation still wielded tremendous influence in the Senate. Tyranus could have easily been able to make a Sith strawman Palpatine's successor as Supreme Chancellor. And then the Republic truly would have lost.

I really could see the whole Ventress/Opress arc as a test for Ventress to show how strong she is with the Dark Side. Trying to kill her master for abandoning her and showing him that she is really capable to pull this off, is an essential part of many EU Sith training lessons. So I really could see Savage Opress and Asajj Ventress fighting for the right to become Darth Tyranus' 'secret apprentice'. There is little chance, I think, that they would really kill off Asajj, nor is anything we know about this arc indicating that we see a reformed Ventress rejoining the Jedi, or at least forsaking the darkness.

 

I heard a rumor that Asajj will be nearly killed this season and will only survive by getting some major cybernetic implants.

I honestly hate this idea but it was something I heard so I thought I would add it to the conversation.