main
side
curve

Lit At what point did Jacen change the future?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    It’s in the title.

    As we well know, Jacen saw a vision of the Dark Man on the Throne of Balance surrounded by his acolytes, one of which was Allana Solo. He discovered the future between 29 and 35 ABY. This was while he was walking Beyond Shadows towards Abeloth - though he did not go any further into her otherworldly domain and left her prison in the Maw thereafter.

    The original vision placed Darth Krayt on the throne, presumably in the life time of Allana, and thus considerably earlier than his eventual seizure of the galaxy in 130 ABY.

    However, by the time of the Battle of Shedu Maad, which ended the Second Civil War, Jacen saw the throne differently, with various permutations of himself, Jaina and Luke on the throne, before it settled on a vision of Allana in white, standing surrounded by Jedi and surrounded by a gaggle of species as friends. Leia also saw this vision, and Luke himself saw it when he found the Throne of Balance in the Beyond Shadows realm.

    The Thuruht Killiks describes the changing of time as a chain of events, and not just one moment. However, it is relatively simple to pick out the moments which were likely going to happen, or could change. There may be others.

    1. Jacen and Tenel Ka have Allana during the Dark Nest Crisis.

    Said Crisis was already germinating before Jacen went on his Sojourn. Rayner, Lomi and Welk had already crashed in Killik space and as such the confrontation with the Chiss was already due to occur. Rather clearly this was somewhat inevitable as the vision suggests. Events here occurred much without Jacen (or Lumiya’s) hand, as Lomi Plo pushed events along.

    2. Sal-Solo pushes Corellia to War

    The secret Corellian assault Fleet was germinating from 30 ABY. Similarly, progress towards Centerpoints activation and Corellia’s political stance generally existed far before Jacen attending Beyond the Shadows. This generally is going to happen, similarly the shape of the opening failed regime change at Corellia and the retreat to Talus. There is no one moment preventing this - as Leia and Han realise aboard the Errant Venture during their exile, the conflict was an inevitability from the respective stances of Corellia and Coruscant.

    3. Lumiya approaches Jacen.

    This was presumably in motion even before Jacen went to the Beyond Shadows, even if you opt not to take into account what she said to Jacen about Vergere, though the One Sith corroborating at least part of it to Alema Rar does add weight to it.

    Here, Jacen opts to kill Nelani rather than Lumiya. This represents a decision made to save Luke. It also represents a moment where, for Luke, his own Dark Man visions become ‘real’, as opposed to something which ‘did not seem yet exist.’ That appears to imply that the identity of the Dark Man was up for grabs due to Jacen’s foreknowledge of events.

    Had Jacen killed Lumiya here, it’s difficult to see how the crisis with Corellia could have expanded to the extent it did.

    Lumiya, Jacen, Niathal, Sal-Solo, Gejjen, Pellaeon, Tahiri and Daala create the shape of the conflict.

    Coming together as they do, Corellia gains allies, allies which come together into a Confederation, widening a war and progressively forcing the hardliners to become all the more harder in their stance until the coup splits the Alliance’s support into the Jedi Coalition and then the Alliance-in-Exile, with the Hapans backing the Coalition, Daala the Exiled under Niathal, and the Remnant the Coruscant-based Alliance rather than Niathal thanks to Tahiri.

    But take away Lumiya, and Corellia doesn’t obtain its allies in such a swift manner, but Jacen could still work with Niathal to oust Pellaeon and push events from there - but without the Confederation the situation never escalated to enable Jacen to take out Gejjen and Cal Omas; instead the political situation could calm, perhaps even the blockade is never formed, if Lumiya was responsible for the bombing of Coruscant - which basic Corellians would likely argue was the case.

    No bombing means no GAG, means no Bothan secession, no Confederate Fleet marching on Corellia in such strength, and so forth. Could Jacen have forced the issue? Of course - but he would have had less chaos to take advantage of. The Lecerson Conspiracy could have worked as well against Cal Omas and Sarretti or Caedus and Pellaeon as it did against Daala and Jagged Fel... though potentially without Darth Caedus killing Mara, we won’t have Cal Omas dying...

    But even if the bombing doesn’t occur - though it may as a Sal-Solo act - the shape of the blockade against Corellia still occurs; but the Confederation specifically required Lumiya to bring it together; and so forth.

    That being said, more just occurred here than just Jacen’s actions - but would the GAG have happened without him?

    3. Centerpoint is Destroyed

    Assuming Sal-Solo is replaced by Gejjen regardless - also an inevitability one may think, what with Sal-Solo targeting Han and his family regardless of the bombing on Coruscant, the reactivation of Centerpoint was on-going. That forces the conflict to a rather inevitable point - especially as it took no more than six months for the station to be rearmed - again regardless of the bombing. But Cal Omas was happy to deploy a multi-nation force of observers to the station to disarm it. Gejjen was content to allow this, and then to use that as opportunity to regroup - would he thus have used the extra time to draw together the Confederation himself?

    Is the destruction of Centerpoint a given at this point...? Did perhaps Abeloth create the chaos which Krayt took advantage of in the original timeline - rather than setting him so far back?

    4. A coup making a more militant GA, and a civil war within a civil war occurs

    The event which forces a more militant response to matters still exists, be it by Niathal or Gejjen. Lumiya or not, Jacen or not. Cal negotiates directly with Gejjen in place of Jacen - the events of Gejjen’s death and Niathal’s rise occur regardless. The act accelerated the acquiring of Corellia of allies - as Sal-Solo’s death, slyly pinned on the GA, does. Similarly, the Lecersen coup could simply occur now, against Pellaeon and Cal Omas - driving the Jedi and Hapans away.

    A militant streak was running through the GA for reasons separate to Lumiya and Jacen - the fear of the chaos of the Vong War, similar to that of the fear of the Clone Wars that Sidious cultivated - a coup of some kind was on the cards, and as such a civil war within a civil war somewhere.

    So what couldn’t have occurred?

    The shape of events seems to be a given - a Corellia led civil war, against an increasingly militant GA, to the point that it expands to draw in other states and potentially drive the Jedi from the GA. The factors are there already.

    However, there is plenty which could not - some would argue should not - have happened.

    A. Darth Caedus kills Mara Jade Skywalker.
    B. The Lost Tribe escapes Kesh.
    C. Daala is nominated leader of the GA.
    D. Abeloth escapes and causes the Apocalypse.

    As seen above, much of the second Civil War could have occurred, but the personal crisis of Jacen Solo, not so much.

    To answer the ultimate question of ‘at what point’, it would seem a culmination of Jacen choosing to mentor himself to Lumiya, creating the GAG, handing Ben to Lumiya to train him on Ziost, and then unify the galaxy against him, handed Daala the power and the shape of the crisis in 43 ABY.

    A war, widespread militarism, various coups, and Centerpoint being-all-but reactivated were absolute givens. But Darth Caedus is the difference between a second Corellian Crisis or a Second Civil War. One was likely; the other one was not.

    Does it truly come down to Jacen simply killing Lumiya... or not? Does Hapan prominence in the GADF follow to the Hapans providing Krayt with the avenue to seize the galaxy? More speculatively - were we poised to discover that Senator Treen worked for Darth Krayt?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  2. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2010
    What's especially interesting to me is that the true resurgence of the Empire and Sith happened when Allana would've been in her late eighties to nineties - in other words, right around when you'd expect a human to die. Was it her that was holding back the tide, I wonder?
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I always felt Allana was still destined to be Jedi queen. She would succeed her mother in Hapes at some point in her life and would also be a Jedi.

    I suspect her reign was one of peace and goodwill. With Hapes under Allana as a mediator in galactic affairs. I also suspect this did have a spiritual component-with Allana's light in the force holding back Krayt's darkness hence Jacen's emphasis on the white throne and being surrounded by friends.

    I also believe Krayt was right when he said Jacen only delayed Krayt's rise. How precisely is hard to say but I suspect Krayt would have grown in strength and made his move decades earlier if not for Jacen/Caedus' actions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I find it super interesting that one of the first events of the One Sith move was to assassinate the Hapan Queen, Leliah. An effort to ensure the Throne visions were truly undone?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Revanfan1 and Vialco like this.
  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Wait where is your source for Leliah? I've never heard that name for a Hapan Queen.
     
    Sinrebirth likes this.
  6. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Elliah*, not Leliah.

    No idea why I assumed she was the Queen - potentially because the Hapans closed their borders to Fel afterwards. Unsure why I did that...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I suspect there was some sort of marriage between the Hapan Royal Family and Fel Dynasty-her death cooled relations between them.
     
  8. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2010
    If the Fels are descended from Jaina and Jag and the Hapan royals from Allana, they'd already be related, actually.
     
  9. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Indeed
     
  10. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    This just makes me want to know how the Gree fighting whoever it was changed the future, and all the other times as well. Maybe including the Pius Dea era.
     
    Sinrebirth likes this.
  11. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I’m inclined to maybe think that Jacen’s first steps were taken in Unseen Queen and Swarm War. Lumiya worked off the portents she had to hand; which would presumably include his behaviour when he returned to the fold after his sojourn, which included a trip to Ziost...

    ... was it more behaviour of Jacen or Caedus to blast Ta’a Chume’s mind into oblivion, to instigate the Swarm War and to betray his parents mission to Tenupe to the Chiss? He was clearly using the dark side against Lomi Plo after all...

    ... I wonder. I’d need to re-evaluate the comments in FotJ and DNT to work out more of an order to his visits.

    He would hardly head to Ziost first, after all... perhaps after he discovered the future?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    wait Jacen was in Dark Nest trilogy and LOTF? ;)
     
    Ulicus likes this.
  13. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
  14. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I still find Lumiya and Vergere's conversation over which Skywalker to turn bizarre. It's not like they knew all of them in detail in terms of personality or corruptability.
     
  15. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Jacen went to Zoist? Need to glance at the Wook again. Really need to read DNT/LOTF/FOTJ again as well.
     
  16. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    I thought it was Ben that took a trip to Ziost?
     
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  17. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Also interesting: we never found out precisely how Ania Solo is descended from Han and Leia, or how she came by the Solo name, as both Han and Leia's surviving descendants, Jaina and Allana, are female. Though then again, Allana's ascension to Queen of Hapes would make the Solos a royal house, which could easily lead to the name being preserved.
     
    AusStig and Daneira like this.
  18. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    LOTF: Exile for that,
     
  19. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Ania did state her ancestors were "like royalty"

    Her ancestry had been discussed before-here's all the possibilities

    A descendant of Allana-perhaps she or her more immediate ancestor chose to retain the solo name. Hence a descendant of Jacen

    A descendant of Jaina-perhaps a Fel child that went wild or their own child. It's possible given her seeming lack of force sensitivity though unlikely

    A descendant of Jacen through another woman-maybe Tahiri, Danni, or someone else. Possible but unlikely.

    Jaina was unfaithful-hence the solo nam and Marasiah never hearing of her though I doubt it.

    Han was unfaithful-lack of force sensitivity, pragmatic attitude, self interest possible but extremely unlikely

    Leia was unfaithful-maybe but extremely unlikely.

    A descendant of Anakin-somehow extremely unlikely-in fact it's infidelity on one of the other solo's part makes more sense given timeline constraints

    A descendant of a solo clone-possible lack of force sensitivity, but no evidence otherwise.

    That's all the possibilities-the first two are far more likely than the rest but the rest aren't impossible.
     
    AusStig and Hamburger_Time like this.
  20. Yunzabit

    Yunzabit Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2015
    I always interpreted it as Jacen jumping the gun and acting rashly when "always in motion is the future"
     
    Sinrebirth likes this.
  21. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    You clever...
     
    Sinrebirth likes this.
  22. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2010
    While we're on changing the future... if the new continuity and Legends are alternate timelines, there's got to be a divergence point, right?

    Think we'll ever find out what it is?
     
    CLee, Sinrebirth and Force Smuggler like this.
  23. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    For me atm, it would be if Abeloth ever existed or not. Maybe something with the Gods of the Dark Pantheon even earlier?
     
  24. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2010
    One suggestion I've heard, based on the fact that the Prequels and TCW are canon to both continuities but Rebels is not, is that in the Legends timeline the Lothal rebels/Specters were killed before they could do anything noteworthy. Isn't an exact fit, though, as thee are differences further back in the timeline than that - Billaba's fate, for instance.
     
  25. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I don't think that's the case because there seems to be fundamental differences outside of individual agency, no matter how far back.

    A potential example coming up would be the depiction of the Corellia system in Solo.