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Lit At what point did Jacen change the future?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Abeloth was a failure in planning anyway, made worse when Troy Denning shoved in the Mortis connection without build-up.
     
  2. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    Is it just me or did Luceno in Millennium Falcon seem to think that the insane Jedi did have to do with Caedus and nothing to do with Abeloth?
     
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  3. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Whoever the Jedi was in MF used a Force power Caedus used. And didn't that happen in FOTJ as well?
    I'm going off memory. Only read the series when the books first came out.
     
  4. Hamburger_Time

    Hamburger_Time Jedi Master star 2

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    You know, that recent article on cults contains a very juicy hint that Abeloth may have been the power behind Chancellor Contispex and the Pius Dea. It's said their religion's chief Goddess had sharp teeth and pinpricks of light for eyes...
     
  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    He only pulled a bunch of blasters out of people's hands and Leia thought he wasn't powerful enough to do that I guess?

    Allana thought it was Caedus that did it
     
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  6. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    MF and FOTJ came out when? 2009? onwards? I barely remember what I read last night, let alone 10 years ago.
     
  7. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    I don't remember most of the Legacy era novels, but I do remember that because there was a lot of theorizing around Caedus like horcruxing these Jedi or something and maybe Jacen was going to be brought back?

    I also remember the part with Leia feeling Han's grief in the Force at the end of MF.

    Deep in the Force, Leia fed stamina to Poste and strength to Allana and support to Han, whose fear for Leia and Allana's safety was eroding his ability to stabilize the ship. Like Leia, he was desperate to keep Allana from harm. But buried deep under his anguish he was thinking of Jacen.
    Calling to Jacen for help.
    For the first time, Leia realized the full depths of Han's pain and grief.
     
  8. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 29, 2005
    You've left out one significant possibility -- one of the more likely, IMO. Which would be that she's descended from Han, but not through infidelity, just from Han having a kid with somebody before he was with Leia, one he wouldn't even know about.

    Honestly, it could have significantly improved the post-NJO if Han's bastard had shown up in the story. In a cast that was hurting for non-Jedi and connections to the fringe, what could have been easier than having Han find out he had a non-FS kid out there who'd followed his path into smuggling?

    Though I also think the best fix for LOTF would have been for Darth Caedus to be Luke's child with Lumiya, so you probably couldn't get away with two suddenly-reappearing big three bastards.
     
  9. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
  10. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Centerpoint causes Sinkhole station to explode. So it’s conceivable that you could destroy Sinkhole station and Abeloth would escape. Or Sinkhole and Kessel’s gravity management system - and considering a chunk of Kessel is missing...

    @DigitialMessiah - Seff demonstrates a paralysis technique that Jacen used. Probably similar to that which Ben uses in TFA.

    Valin then demonstrates the mind-blanking technique, which is again something Jacen did to sensors during the Dark Nest Crisis. This spurs a connection between Jacen and the mad Jedi, and off Luke goes.

    We see Natua Wen throw her voice across a zoo, and Jysella flow walk. This strengthens the connection between the mad Jedi and Jacen until Barv uses a technique to put his hand though metal - a power which allows him to alter matter, which Raynar points out is a Killik skill. This is the first point the mad Jedi demonstrate powers that Jacen didn’t have.

    I’d love horcrux Jacen to be honest - including a lengthy repentance arc, a la Hal Jordan from DC after Zero Hour.

    @Revanfan1. Potentially by Betrayal the identity of the Dark Man had been pushed to the point that it could have been someone different. Jacen’s moral descent during DNT presumably being the reason... the portents.

    The Old Timeline was on track when Allana was born, but the New Timeline was a possibility by the time Jacen met Lumiya. But even then the direction of the New Timeline - Allana instead of Darth Krayt (or Caedus) on the Throne does not appear to have been solidified until just before Jacen died.


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  11. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    @Sinrebirth Yeah I was disappointed that the Caedus connection was a red herring.

    But still, re: Millennium Falcon, doesn't the way it was written imply that he was involved? We/Allana never saw him do Force stasis before that I can recall (you'd probably remember better, it's been a decade since I read LOTF), and Allana thought Caedus was there.
     
  12. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2012
    I actually find this to be a superb plot twist with the story. I also thought it odd that later writers had no problem having Jedi using Force skills that were absolutely 'dark' when Jacen used them.

    One note: if the future isn't fixed, would not EVERYTHING we do change the future?
     
  13. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    which skills?
     
  14. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 6, 2012
    I was thinking of flow-walking, specifically.
     
  15. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I'm still on page 1 as of replying, but as I've said before. I think the point of divergence might be the Exile going the Dark Side in KOTOR 2 as opposed to the Legends canon Light Side. As a result, Malachor is intact. A Sith Order remains active in the Galaxy in the form of Trayus Academy. The Jedi are still eventually rebuilt but slower. All of this either slows down or prevents Vitiate's invasion. Maybe ironically without the Exile, Revan successfully takes him out?

    And maybe the Restored Jedi Order, this time around NOT restored by the Exile, is set up on Ahch-To?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  16. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    There are actually a lot of "tells" in the post-NJO novels that something is not right in the very fabric of the continuity - the Yuuzhan Vong are all-but forgotten, Jag Fel has blue eyes, and Jysella Horn feels considerably younger than she should be, for example... but most obviously of all, elements of the pre-SbS geography of Coruscant are inexplicably showing up where they have no right to be (the Armand Isard Correctional Facility is the most obvious example of this, but the Prequel-era Jedi Temple is another, although what relation that has to the Imperial Palace now that the Imperial Palace was always the Jedi Temple is anyone's guess - except of course for the obvious fact that the idea that the Imperial Palace was always the Imperial Palace and not the Jedi Temple was something that entered the continuity at around the time that Palpatine hid the Lusankya)...

    Ah.

    When we first see the Jedi Temple in Heir to the Empire, everyone thinks the Jedi Temple has always been the Imperial Palace, a slightly odd idea on two fronts, insofar as the Empire has only been around for a few decades, and the Jedi Temple has not actually been invented yet.

    However, this is the Coruscant on which Palpatine can casually conceal an 8km-long Super Star Destroyer underground, and put the cityscape back on top, then make everyone forget anything ever changed.

    I submit for your consideration the possibility that Palpatine has performed a massive headkriff of some sort to make everyone think the Jedi Temple had always been the Imperial Palace.

    Then Borsk, being Borsk, blows up the Imperial Palace (which is also the Jedi Temple). This is followed up by the release of the Dark Side nexus underneath the Jedi Temple (which is also the Imperial Palace).

    These events cause the nexus of manipulated perceptions cast around the Jedi Palace / Imperial Temple to unravel with some violence...

    This sets off a literal timequake which not only leads to the original, Prequel-era Jedi Temple reappearing in uptown Coruscant in spite of Borsk blowing the place up (and us in the audience belatedly realising that the Jedi Temple was the Imperial Palace all along)... but which literally unravels the entire STAR WARS continuity and eventually creates The Force Awakens.

    Everything else that seems weird is just part of the shuffling process going on (but REBELS!Malachor has to be KotOR!Malachor because of all the Revan/Exile subtext going on)...

    Another indication of some sort of major continuity disruption during Star by Star can be seen in the form of my favourite gratuitous continuity error - in SbS, Kyp rejoins Luke's Jedi, then manages to get his squadron wiped out in the first skirmish of the Battle of Coruscant, ends up leading the Yuuzhan Vong to the Jedi base at Eclipse, and is implicitly aboard the Errant Venture with Booster and Cilghal at the end of the novel; then at the start of Dark Journey a completely different Kyp shows up who has had no contact with the Jedi since before Star by Star, and only shows up at Coruscant just when the Errant Venture leaves, complete with an inexplicably unvaped X-wing Squadron, although Kyp being Kyp, he manages to get them wiped out again in the concluding skirmish of the battle...

    One concluding thought which all this prompts in me is that Palpatine's headkriff about the Palace was not the first - when Maul talks about "revealing themselves" and when Palpatine talks about the Sith ruling the Galaxy "once again", perhaps they're not talking about chronology and history at all - they're talking about the fact that a previous "Sith timeline" had been retconned by some sort of immense Jedi mind trick / battle meditation / timequake....

    Other implications follow from that point, but I suspect I already lost you all before this point. ;)

    On what is presumably a completely different topic, I occasionally ponder Ania simply being a very disillusioned Jaina hiding behind a not-very-convincing anagram as Ania J Solo (reasons why she's not aged in a century are open for discussion), though my headcanon tends to make her Cade and Gunn's middle sibling - the daughter who Corde was pregnant with when she walked out on her first husband.

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  17. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I'll throw up a big post on a Malachor divergence at some point, I think it's fun to speculate, but on Ania I think it's very likely she could simply be a Sal-Solo with the 'Sal' part omitted.
     
  18. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    :eek:
     
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  19. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    palpatine broke the dragon
     
  20. Point Given

    Point Given Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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  21. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 3, 2013
    Interesting point. Perhaps it was a combination of a number of things that ultimately shifted things into the New Timeline. I'm wondering if it might be Allana living with the Solos. If they'd never faked Allana's death and sent her to live with Han and Leia as Amelia, then her upbringing could've been potentially very different. And that only happened because of Caedus' willingness to use the nanovirus (although it was the Moffs who ultimately used it on the Hapans). If Allana had been raised with the Hapans instead of the Solos, maybe she would've somehow been turned to the dark side?
     
  22. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Perhaps that negative politically sharp environment had an impact on Allana that made her a potential danger. If Tenel Ka died, Allana becomes Queen Mother and that gives Darth Krayt a power base.


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  23. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Han does seem like the sort of person to have fathered a child and then moved on not ever knowing it at least Han before ANH. So that is a possibility as well.

    I don't like Darth Caedus being Lumiya and Luke's bastard though Luke having an affair during his rebel years with Shira Brie that results in a child thus greatly complicating his relationship with Lumiya in LOTF is fascinating though Luke strikes me as not the sort of man to father a child and run off not knowing about it.
     
  24. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Well, it's not so much running off as that whole thinking he killed her thing.
     
  25. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 17, 2007
    At any point, did members of your dissertation committee attempt to reenact these scenes?



    Good to see you back in action, buddy.