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PT Attack of the Clones: the film the entire Saga turned on

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The Togruta Jedi, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. The Togruta Jedi

    The Togruta Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 22, 2020
    I looked I didn’t see another thread like this or these elements discussed in this manner (mods) if this needs to be merged do so please.

    The under appreciated AOTC I believe is the film the entire Saga turned on, everything that happened in the film had direct consequences the galaxy still feels today. There are numerous reasons here are some of them that changed everything.

    - the revelation by Count Dooku that the Senate was under the power of a Sith Lord.
    This surprised Obi-Wan and by time Obi-Wan addresses the issues with the Council the war, Sidious stranglehold and influence was set in stone.

    - revelation that for a decade a Clone Army was being built.
    Used as a last resort the Jedi grant Chancellor Palpatine emergency powers to establish a Grand Army of the Republic that would eventually be led by Darth Vader and killed most all the Jedi in the Great Purge.

    - Anakin and Padme secret relationship and marriage (later) pregnancy
    This development further created angst and doubt in Anakin, his love for Padme was forbidden and thus had to be hidden, as such in (III) the fear and sadness of her loss has a centerpiece of Anakin’s seduction to the dark side and his eventual turn.

    But not all bad this came from this relationship he father two twins, one would become the leader of the Rebels and the other a Jedi who would save him and help restore piece to the galaxy.

    There are more interesting plot driven points from AOTC but the above mentioned three were the most influential. Thoughts?
     
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  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    The Jedi didn't grant anything to Palpatine. The senate did.
     
  3. The Togruta Jedi

    The Togruta Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 22, 2020
    They went along with the Chancellor suggestion.

    “If only we had a Senator brave enough.. if only Senator Amidala was here” ~ next scene after the meeting between the Council and Chancellor Jar Jar Binks is seen putting the motion in front of the Senate. (Yes the Jedi did suggestion, grant etc.) they also tried to remove the emergency powers) ask Mace Windu how that worked out or Yoda ...

     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    No. They went along with the decision of the senate they swore to serve. The Jedi have no say on its politics.
     
  5. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    Good thread topic. I think that AOTC is crucial for developing the circumstances that will lead to Anakin's downfall. In addition to his secret, forbidden relationship with Padme, I think the most important thing that happens with Anakin in the film is the death of his mother as a result of the Tusken Raiders' torture and his subsequent slaughter of the Tusken Raider tribe. The death of his mother cements his fear and inability to deal with loss, which I believe was his tragic flaw and the cause of his undoing more than any other single trait, and is also the catalyst for Anakin to commit what is arguably his first Dark Side act. It is also at that point in the movie that we first hear Anakin express the need to stop those he loves from dying, which will drive his desire to save Padme in ROTS. Likewise, his belief in the vision he gets of Padme dying in childbirth in ROTS is likely a product of his vision of his mother suffering on Tatooine coming to pass. I really think that when people understand the transformation we see occur with Anakin in AOTC, his downfall in ROTS will not seem rushed, and AOTC can be appreciated for what it brings to the saga.
     
  6. The Togruta Jedi

    The Togruta Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 22, 2020
    “I... I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead... every single one of them. And not just the men. But the women... and the children, too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals! I HATE THEM!”

    “I wasn't strong enough to save you mom. I wasn't strong enough, but I promise I won't fail again.”


    I didn’t add this but you are definitely correct, you can see how Lucas set this up just the way Williams music portrayed the events, he even shows outright disgust towards Lars and is emotionally traumatized to the point Padme consoles him.

    “You're not all-powerful, Ani. Well, I should be.”

    Yeah the slow burn (build up to the pay off in ROTS) of his turn and his temptation is so traumatizing.

    It provides the foundation of the turn of Anakin Skywalker
     
  7. wobbits

    wobbits Force Ghost star 4

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    Apr 12, 2017
    I just realized while I was reading your post that I had a random thought about the bolded. When Anakin leaves Shmi in TPM he is somewhat afraid but he's definitely not clingy nor acting out in any sort of over the top emotional state. He packs his things cheerfully, says good bye to 3PO and walks out the door. When he asks Shmi "Will I ever see you again" She says "What does your heart tell you?" He says "I hope so, Yes I guess." Then he tells her confidently he will come back to free her.

    He tells the Council that he misses her after just having left her (which is perfectly normal and understandable for a 9 year old), but I don't see anything glaring at this point regarding his inability to deal with loss. There really weren't any disturbing signs when Qui Gon died, or when he and Padme parted ways in Coruscant earlier in the movie.

    I understand that Lucas wanted his parting from his mother to be spark 1 so to speak but it just now made me wonder what he may have seen during his years as a Padawan between TPM and AOTC that would have fanned the flames of this crippling fear of loss Lucas made front and center. He was having visions of Shmi dying at the beginning of AOTC, curious as to what age Lucas would say these visions began tormenting this kid.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  8. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    in terms of narrative AOTC is brilliant, its execution is awful at times which is why it's at the bottom of the pile for me.. but the story is so good it makes up for it and is a vital part of the saga
     
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  9. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 13, 2014
    The argument that the entire Saga turned on this movie could be made about TPM, as well. Finding Anakin sets the events of the other 8 movies in motion. Hell, if they don't find Anakin, none of the other 8 movies happen, or at least don't happen as they were. You could say R2 is the most vital character to the entire saga. If he doesn't fix the shield generator on Padme's ship, they get blown up, and never get to Tatooine to find Anakin. ;)
     
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  10. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 12, 2017
    In all honesty, we could make the case that the saga turned on every one of the episodes. That said, I think that the importance of AOTC is often under-appreciated. AOTC introduces the Grand Army of the Republic and sets the stage for political upheavals and warfare on the galactic scale.

    On an individual level, AOTC established the romantic relationship between Anakin and Padme, which led to the birth of Luke and Leia and precipitated Anakin’s turn to the dark side.
     
  11. KaleeshFett

    KaleeshFett Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 21, 2021
    Fascinating topic, especially for a film like AOTC. Similarly to how I've heard some treat TPM, I've seen many say you ought skip AOTC and just get to ROTS. To avoid the dreaded "bad romance" and the hated CGI of course, among other things.

    I think the whole conversation between Kenobi and Dooku on Geonosis is especially underappreciated as it fully illustrates how much power Sidious has and how blind the Jedi are to his presence in the senate. As the OP addressed, by the time the Jedi heard from Kenobi that a Sith was behind the scenes the war was well on it's way and the Sith's net had been truly cast. The tragedy of this conversation is that despite Dooku outright saying a Sith was controlling the senate, the Jedi still eventually fell to Darth Sidious's sway in the end.
     
  12. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    That's worst advice I've ever heard regarding SW. AOTC is a VITAL chapter in the saga. If something can be skipped it should be the ST, as it adds nothing to the story.
     
  13. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 12, 2017
    A friend once described AOTC as a “conspiracy movie”. In many ways, he was right. AOTC is a movie of subtleties and subterfuge. None of the characters (with the possible exception of Palpatine) fully understand the events that are unfolding or the direction in which the galaxy is headed.

    In many ways, Obi Wan is the most vital character in AOTC, as he plays the role of detective. Obi Wan leads the audience on his quest to unravel this mystery as we try to make sense of the clues he uncovers. This makes AOTC a unique episode within the saga and many people didn’t like this in a Star Wars movie.

    For me, much of AOTC had a distinctly film noir style with hints to Art Deco and grimy urban settings. Obi Wan visits backstreet bars, an old-fashioned diner and fights a dangerous henchman on a dark rainy night.

    For me, AOTC is a movie of contrasts. We have the hard-boiled detective plot, the Arthurian romance and our first glimpse of Jedi fighting en masse in a huge sci-fi battle involving robots and flying aliens. AOTC was a bold movie that combined these different elements and took huge risks with a Star Wars movie. Unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll see this bold creativity in future Star Wars movies.
     
  14. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    AOTC basically has enough ambition and lore-work that in spite of Lucas's struggles to direct the script and actors, it only helped the overall saga in the long run. It's functionality is brilliant even if its execution is highly dubious; if there was any film in the PT that could have perhaps benefitted from Lucas using a different director for a script he had written, this film would be it... but at the same time, there's still so much achieved at the ground level and in the set-up phase that you wouldn't want to risk losing what Lucas put in it.
     
  15. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    even if it had been made a few years later so the technology had been up to scratch too.. if any film needs a SE its AOTC
     
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  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    AotC is the film where much of the plot going forward was established.
    The seps, the clone army, the romance and all that.

    So it sets up a lot.

    But the problem I have with it, aside from the uneven execution, is that it has to do so much and even with all it does, RotS still felt rushed.
    I think that TPM could have done some of the stuff that AotC does. Like have Dooku in it, show the seeds of the seps.

    Now two films have to do the work of three in terms of plot, character dynamics and story because TPM did not do that much.

    The Anakin/Obi-wan friendship is not established, they meet, that is it.
    The romance can not really start given nine year old Anakin.

    TPM does set up some stuff but I think it could have done more.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    We could have used another movie on the intervening ten years. Show Obi-Wan and Anakin’s friendship developing, show Anakin having some kind of correspondence with Padme, show him beginning to have dreams about his mother.

    But I love AOTC. The biggest mistake Lucas made was trying to do a “courtly” romance which led to all those cringeworthy lines, as well as including behavior from Anakin that many found creepy. Anakin and Padme’s romance should have had more scenes like the dinner table and the meadow.

    I really like the few Anakin/Obi-Wan friendship scenes as well as the Obi-Wan detective subplot, and yes, the political scenes, which were brilliant at showing how a democracy becomes a dictatorship.
     
  18. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    It’s the film where Star Wars became legitimately good for me, rather than something I enjoy mostly because of nostalgia.
     
  19. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    I think a courtly romance is quite appropriate given their formal situations (Anakin is quite literally a "knight"). Especially since most chivalric romances (Lancelot and Guinevere, etc.) are about forbidden relationships that lead to the tragedy. But some dialogue should've been tweaked or toned down (plus Anakin only being 9 in TPM didn't help, I think the original idea of a 12 y.o. Anakin would've worked better to set up his obsession).

    For sure, some of their deleted scenes are very good and should've been included in the final cut.
     
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  20. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    No, those lines are EXACTLY what made AOTC so special. Oh, am I the only one who thinks "creepy" is being ridiculously overused, along with "cringeworthy"? I hope those dialogs will NEVER be "fixed" by the Mouse and will always be a part of the saga. SW would not be SW without AOTC, BECAUSE it's so different and daring and "CRINGEWORTHY". There you have it. Not EVERYONE hates those dialogs. The saga would never be the same without them.
    Oh, and I personally applaud Lucas for having the guts to include a courtly romance in a fantasy or sci-fi epic!=D=
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Definitely disagree. Hayden and Natalie weren’t comfortable with those lines and “old fashioned courtly romance” is out of place in a movie made in 2002. I personally found Anakin more awkward than creepy but “cringeworthy” is not overrated when the lines took me out of the fireplace scene, whereas having Anakin give Padme normal lines and not exaggerate about being “haunted” and “kiss becoming a scar” would not have; I probably would have enjoyed that scene if not for that. (Padme’s lines were fairly normal there though, I don’t know why they had Anakin talk like he was badly competing in a poetry competition.)
     
  22. bstnsx704

    bstnsx704 Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 11, 2013
    Probably because Anakin grew up with a group of celibate space monks, his idea of romance is totally stunted and he has no real world context for anything he's actually feeling in that moment, and he can't express himself in this situation in any way that doesn't come across like a guy "badly competing in a poetry competition" because that's his whole skewed idea of what love is.

    It doesn't shock me at all that this form of "love" that he feels for Padme goes on to morph into infatuation and obsession as he becomes further contorted and twisted by the dark side, and that he turns to violence and hatred in the end as Vader emerges from within him. The "courtly romance" is awkward and, yes, cringey, and that is very much by design. Anakin shouldn't be a character that anyone in the audience looks to for dating tips.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  23. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    I disagree. Anakin expresses himself well enough for the style Lucas chose to evoque. It might not be to everyone's liking, but it's not a commentary on the character or the way he was raised. Padmé shares that style of dialogue with him.

    I think people assume too much into the "celibate space monks". The Jedi are not some sort of social inepts. On the contrary. They are ambassadors, diplomats. Reading, understanding and interacting with people is one of their strengths.

    Anakin is a teenager and is in love. Awkward behaviour is to be expected. The style of dialogue has nothing to do with it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
  24. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Force Ghost star 4

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    Apr 16, 2002
    This film was following a very controversial but enjoyable start to the PT. There was a lot of anticipation and pressure to get SW back to where we remembered it from the OT. Not that it couldn't be it's own thing, which it did, and it delivered. Overall it seemed most fans were happy but still left with a "miss the mark" feeling. Despite the dialogue, major CGI and mysterious plot, this film remains a step up and was bold.
     
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    At the time, Attack of the Clones was commonly seen as a major improvement on The Phantom Menace. The idea that it is the most inferior film in the trilogy is something that seems to have developed over the past several years. Why this shift in perception? I couldn't say, as I quite like the film and always have.

    Yes, Anakin is obviously awkward with Padme on Coruscant in the beginning ("Well, for a senator, I mean!"), and this is intentional. But overall, this is not the case. He is depicted as quite effectively romancing Padme for the most part.

    Anakin has grown up in a non-traditional social environment but he is far from socially stunted. In fact, if anything, he has been trained to be a lot more socially intelligent than the average person. His inexperience in romance may give him some nerves, but he's clearly the kind of person who could effortlessly attract lots of women if he wanted to. He's like James Dean.

    The idea that Anakin's dialogue in the love scenes on Naboo is supposed to be cringey and awkward is one of those bad prequel defenses that do more harm and good, because it is obviously not correct, and any interlocutor will thus have an easy time countering it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021