Balance of the Force

"(Maybe Yoda's line- "Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong" could be seen as an acknowledgement that this kind of meddling with the Force for purely personal gain is the Dark Side, which even Yoda isn?t strong enough to handle without being corrupted and consumed?)"

I've often wondered as well, what Yoda might be referring to here. Is this a throw-away line, or will Lucas utilize it somehow?

 

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed... these are the two sides - the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction." - George Lucas

 

"ultimately", yes, but Lucas is clearly making some new distinctions in the Force in the PT. The Jedi are about to learn that there's a much bigger world out there than hag originally been thought (i.e. Force ghosts.)

 

Well, he said that after TPM was finished. It's from the same Time article dehrian originally quoted.

 

FYI, in George?s own words the Cosmic (Unifying) Force is the ?spirit of life,? while the Living Force is the ?physical manifestation of life.? Furthermore, the good side and the dark side of the Force are the two halves that comprise the Cosmic Force. Here?s a couple of excerpts that I posted in another thread that might help you understand Jedi ghosts a little better:

The Phantom Menace established that there is a division in the way the Jedi have come to follow the Force that goes beyond the accepted ?good side? and ?dark side.? Some Jedi are devotees of the Cosmic Force, while other Jedi rely on the Living Force. Wondering what the difference is? If we are to go on what George Lucas tells us, along with what his friend and mentor Joseph Campbell put forward in his books, then we have to conclude the Force represents ?life? and is made up of two halves; in George?s own words the Force is both the ?spirit of life? and the ?physical manifestation of life.?

Still not clear on what the difference is? Simply put, the Cosmic Force is the invisible energy field that Obi-Wan describes in A New Hope. It is the ?spirit of life? that is everywhere and infuses everything in the Star Wars universe. In contrast, the visible universe, made up of all things and beings, is the ?physical manifestation of life,? and for the reason that the universe is ?alive? teeming with all the assorted life-forms that interact continuously with one another and with their environment, this aspect of the Force has been labeled the ?Living Force.?

What?s more, George says that all life-forms in the SW universe generate their own Force, and this Force stays with each life-form like an aura throughout its lifetime. George also implies that this ?Force aura? is comprised of each life-form?s thoughts, feelings, and emotions, and that these things are natural manifestations of the Living Force. Then when a life-form dies, it loses all identity and the Force it generated becomes one with the greater Cosmic Force. This is the life cycle of the Force, and this is what Yoda is referring to when he says that life makes the Force grow. Now for a Jedi, what happens to them upon death is no different than what happens to any other life-form. That person loses all identity and becomes one with the Cosmic Force?that is until Qui-Gon Jinn comes along.

Qui-Gon, as we know, espouses a philosophy that centers on the Living Force. Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan to be mindful of the Living Force, and my take on this is that what he means is to be particularly aware of what people think and about how they feel. In other words, Qui-Gon knows very well that thoughts, feelings, and emotions are manifestations of the Living Force, and accordingly he is readily able to tap this aspect of the Force. That is why it?s so easy for him to put a thought in a person?s head, or why it is so easy for him to read someone?s mind.

What are we to make, then, of Qui-Gon Jinn? As Anakin says, compassion is central to a Jedi?s way of life. Compassion, plus hyper-sensitivity to other individuals? thoughts and feelings, makes for a very unique Jedi, in my opinion. Qui-Gon Jinn was a man who had complete understanding about the nature of people?s feelings because he was compassionate and devoted himself to the service and well-being of others. I remember I was reading Dostoevsky?s novel The Idiot around the same time TPM was out in theaters, and I remember one passage in particular that reminded me of Qui-Gon:

---

In scattering your seed, scattering your ?charity,? your good deeds in one form or another, you are giving away part of your personality, and taking into yourself part of another; you become mutually affiliated, one with the other; a little more attention and you will already be awarded with the knowledge, with the most unexpected discoveries. You will come at last to look upon your work as a science; it will lay hold of all your life, and may fill up your whole life. On the other hand, all your thoughts, a

 

In addition to what I posted above, George says that when a good person dies, that person becomes one with the good side of the Force. In contrast, when a bad person dies, that person becomes one with the dark side of the Force. In other words, if you?re good you go to heaven, if you are bad you go to hell. George has also shown us that the good can?t exist without the bad?any doctor needs disease and any sick person needs health.

This is critical to understanding what balance means in the SW universe because George has revealed to us that one half of the Cosmic Force can grow to envelop the other half. In Clones, so many bad people have died that the dark side of the Force has grown so enormous that it shrouds the good side of the Force. Accordingly, the Jedi can no longer hear the will of the Force (i.e., they can?t see things as they happen, and future is no longer revealed to them). This is their own fault, however, because they have allowed people to die without trying to redeem them. The Jedi have become complacent and arrogant, and Sidious has taken advantage of this. Sidious/Palpatine/the Emperor and his Empire have perpetuated wars in which evil, greedy factions kill one another thus increasing the bad guy body count exponentially. There is hope, though, because by the time of ROTJ, Sidious has also killed too many good and innocent people, so much so, that the good side of the Force has restored itself and thus outshines the dark side. Thus, he ends up having the same problem as the Jedi, when he too loses his ability to see the future and can?t see things as they are happening around him.

 

Excellent posts, bad radio. Excellent. I'll need some time to fully digest them. Thank you.

 

"This is critical to understanding what balance means in the SW universe because George has revealed to us that one half of the Cosmic Force can grow to envelop the other half. In Clones , so many bad people have died that the dark side of the Force has grown so enormous that it shrouds the good side of the Force. Accordingly, the Jedi can no longer hear the will of the Force (i.e., they can?t see things as they happen, and future is no longer revealed to them)."

While I agree that this reasoning seems sound in and of itself, I'm curious to know who are all these "bad people" are that are dying. In addition, I find it interesting that, as "bad people" die, this somehow makes it harder for the "good people" to function adequately. One would think that the opposite reaction would make more sense - having fewer "bad people" around would make it easier for the "good people" to get stuff done.

I would think a prepoderance of live "bad people" (sounds like a circus act ) would be more of a problem, and it would tie into the films as well (all the "living" Senators that are under Palpatine's control.)

Of course, this barely touched on Yoda not being in contact with Qui-gon in the OT. We'll see if that gets explained or not.

 

>>>> While I agree that this reasoning seems sound in and of itself, I'm curious to know who are all these "bad people" are that are dying.

A ?bad person? is anyone who aided in the suffering of others. That could be the person who caused the suffering, or it could simply be the person who turned their back on someone who needed help.

>>>> In addition, I find it interesting that, as "bad people" die, this somehow makes it harder for the "good people" to function adequately.

I?m not sure what you mean by ?function adequately.? I simply said that with the deaths of so many bad men, the will of the Force is not being revealed to the Jedi as it once was. Having that kind of omnipotent knowledge is by no means an adequate function of life.

>>>> One would think that the opposite reaction would make more sense - having fewer "bad people" around would make it easier for the "good people" to get stuff done.

Not when you consider that there is no one person who is good as much as the world is bad. There will never be a short supply of bad people because man is deemed to be bad. And in the SW universe, this problem is compounded by the fact that the dark side is always there influencing people to do bad things.

>>>> Of course, this barely touched on Yoda not being in contact with Qui-gon in the OT. We'll see if that gets explained or not.

The OT is about Luke, thus we don?t get to see every facet of Yoda?s life. Yoda is in contact with Qui-Gon but we just don?t see it. There?s no need to.

 

"A 'bad person' is anyone who aided in the suffering of others. That could be the person who caused the suffering, or it could simply be the person who turned their back on someone who needed help."

You misunderstand. I know what a typical "bad person" is. My question relates to this statement.

"In Clones, so many bad people have died that the dark side of the Force has grown so enormous that it shrouds the good side of the Force."

Which "bad people", specifically, are being referred to here? ?

"I?m not sure what you mean by "function adequately." I simply said that with the deaths of so many bad men, the will of the Force is not being revealed to the Jedi as it once was. Having that kind of omnipotent knowledge is by no means an adequate function of life."

Actually, you almost stated the intent of my phrase. In functioning adequately, the Jedi are able to use the Force. The contention is that dead people prevent the Jedi from using the Force, and I'm trying to figure out who those dead people are.

"Not when you consider that there is no one person who is good as much as the world is bad. There will never be a short supply of bad people because man is deemed to be bad. And in the SW universe, this problem is compounded by the fact that the dark side is always there influencing people to do bad things."

Then it seems you are referring to the deaths of people outside the scope of the film. In addition, you appear to present the "Dark Side" as an entity here, when the Dark Side refers to the intent of the user, not the Force itself. It's not the power, but the desire of the user for such power, that influences people to do bad things.

Perhaps not a huge distinction for most people, but it is for me.

"The OT is about Luke, thus we don?t get to see every facet of Yoda?s life. Yoda is in contact with Qui-Gon but we just don?t see it. There?s no need to."

This is not unreasonable logic, but I do find it lame, nonetheless. Sure, we only see Yoda's ghost at the end of ROTJ, but where's Qui-Gon? That being said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lucas digitally inserted Qui-Gon's ghost next to Anakin, Obi-wan and Yoda in the Archival Editions.

Makes me even happier that I bought the LD's.

 

I have read the links you posted on the AOTC forum MeBeJedi and I have to say at this point my simple understanding of the issue is.

To truly be on the light side of the force (for want of a better phrase) you must only react to and help the will of the force. Once you begin to change the will of the force then you begin to dabble with the Darkside of the force.

This makes sense with what we have seen so far from The Emperor who seems obsessed with having visions of the future, because he uses these visions to try and change any possible outcome?s. Therefore he is changing the will of the force; this throws up some interesting questions about how the Jedi have behaved through out the Republic.

If the Jedi knew someone was going to die, say a Chancellor (before Palpatine) then really they shouldn?t do anything about it, all they should do is react to the circumstances they find themselves in. It is not there place to decide what is best for the GFFA they must only help the will of the force.

The Sith are obviously different in that they use there knowledge of the will of the force to their advantage.

QGJ tells us the philosophy of living for the moment although it is interesting that he cheated to free Anakin and could be said to not be trusting the will of the force at that point. His student OB1 probably gives us the best example of the living force when he allows himself to be struck down by Vader, he knows this is the will of the force and can be seen to be smiling.

If we think of ANH when OB1 asks Luke to join him he says you must do what you think is right (or something similar), this also shows a willingness to allow fate to decide the course of actions that will follow. I wonder what would of happened if Owen and Beru hadn?t been killed, would OB1 have gone off on his own?

This all gives us a very straight line that the Jedi must tread, I wonder if the fact that the Jedi took such an active role in government led to their downfall, were the Jedi in fact dabbling in the Darkside?

 

Ghost in the machine?

 

Bad Radio,

I really like that description of the ?Unifying (cosmic)/Living? aspects of the Force as the ?Spirit of Life? and ?Physical Manifestation of Life.? (Do you know where GL has stated that?) Certainly some food for thought there! (I particularly liked the quote from The Idiot- I love it when something completely unrelated to Star Wars illuminates something from the saga! Robert M. Pirsig?s books often have the same kind of effect for me.)

However, when it comes to the death of an individual, I have a slightly different interpretation to yours;

>>>>when a life-form dies, it loses all identity and the Force it generated becomes one with the greater Cosmic Force. This is the life cycle of the Force, and this is what Yoda is referring to when he says that life makes the Force grow.

As I?ve understood it, the process of an individuals Living Force ?becoming one? with the greater Force is something that happens continually, rather than being released all of a sudden when they die (I don?t know if that?s what you meant, but that?s how I read your post.) So it?s not two separate ?Forces?, but two different ways of looking at the same Force (either from the top-down or bottom-up.) Otherwise, Obi Wan and Yoda?s descriptions don?t sound right- the ?energy field created by all living things? would be better described as ?all dying things?, Yoda talking about ?life makes it grow? would be ?death makes it grow? and so on.

How I see it is that when a life-form dies, it obviously stops generating the Living Force (the clue is in the name! ), but the Force it has generated throughout his/her/it?s life has already become a part of the greater Force.

The reason Qui Gon is different, I think, is because he has lived his live focussed on the Living Force and has such an understanding of it that instead of his spirit simply being lost in the vastness of the Unifying Force, he still has this influence, however slight, in the ?here and now.? (Except without a physical presence, the ?here and now? isn?t tied by the ?crude matter? of his body to any particular point in time or space?)

Also bear in mind what else Yoda hears in that scene- I?ve always thought that the ?Noooo?? sounds more like Yoda than anyone else, and there?s definitely a snippet of Vader?s breathing in there too- there seems to be something from the future as well as the past, implying that the Unifying Force rather than the Living Force is the important side.

>>>George says that when a good person dies, that person becomes one with the good side of the Force. In contrast, when a bad person dies, that person becomes one with the dark side of the Force. In other words, if you?re good you go to heaven, if you are bad you go to hell. George has also shown us that the good can?t exist without the bad?any doctor needs disease and any sick person needs health.

That sounds unlike anything I?ve heard Lucas saying about the good & evil side of things. What?s your source for that?

Also, as MeBeJedi pointed out, that might make sense during the OT when civil war is raging, but in AOTC there isn?t anything to suggest that a huge number of ?bad people? have been dying- indeed, it seems that the Clone Wars are revolving around Battle Droids (with no influence over the Force one way or the other) and Clones (who are only following orders, so don?t seem to be intrinsically ?bad?)- neither of whom seem likely to tip the cosmic balance one way or the other.

My own theory as to why ?the dark side clouds everything? is that it?s purely the work of the Sith. Anyone with the ability to use the Force can see into the future- when the only people who were doing this were the Jedi, who served the Force itself, this doesn?t really ?disturb? anything. However, when the Sith are doing this, and then manipulating events (whether through using the Force or not- their knowledge of the future is what?s important) to change the outcome, then the future becomes clouded- what they originally saw will no longer be the ?true? future, as

 

>>>> Which "bad people", specifically, are being referred to here?

Every bad person that died up to and through TPM. George says the master/apprentice Sith relationship has been around for thousands of years. In other words, the Sith have been slowly turning people against one another, but this change in people?s morality has happened so gradually that the Jedi haven?t taken notice. (As I?ve said, the Jedi have no real understanding regarding the nature of people?s feelings. This is because the Jedi got too carried away with trying to make sense of the Cosmic Force that they neglected the Living Force. Their unconditional devotion to making people?s lives better progressively got erased from their worldview.) This gradual build-up of immoral people has culminated with the dark side eclipsing the good side of the Force. The first noticeable slip in the balance occurs in TPM, and by AOTC Yoda realizes that the Jedi can?t rely on the Cosmic Force anymore because the dark side has grown to become the dominant half. But all is not lost:

---

The midi-chlorians have brought Anakin into being as ?the Chosen One? who brings balance to the universe. The mystery around that theory is that we don't yet know whether the chosen one is a good or a bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, [b]we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out.[/b]

? George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, [i]Star Wars: The Making of Episode I[/i][hr][/blockquote]>>>>[b][i] Actually, you almost stated the intent of my phrase. In functioning adequately, the Jedi are able to use the Force. The contention is that dead people prevent the Jedi from using the Force[/i][/b] [?]

The Jedi?s ability to use the Force has [i]diminished[/i]. They can still use the Force, it?s just that the future isn?t being revealed to them like it was before, and it takes much more concentration to hear the will of the Force in the wake of the dark side?s growing power.

>>>>[b][i] In addition, you appear to present the "Dark Side" as an entity here, when the Dark Side refers to the intent of the user, not the Force itself.[/i][/b]

FYI, the dark side is an entity, which is evidenced by the cave in Yoda?s swamp:

[blockquote][hr][b]LUKE:[/b] There?s something not right here. I feel cold, death.
[b]YODA:[/b] That place? is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is. In you must go.

? From [i]The Empire Strikes Back[/i] screenplay[hr][/blockquote]Rest assured the dark side exists, and it?s not merely ?the intent of the user.? It?s part of the invisible energy field that influences the destiny of all living things in the [i]SW[/i] universe. I posted the following in another thread, and it may help you distinguish ?intent? from ?influence?:

[color=maroon]In the rough draft of [i]TPM[/i]?s screenplay, Shmi hopes that Obi-Wan has been sent to take Anakin away for Jedi training (Obi-Wan was later replaced with Qui-Gon in this scene). When Obi-Wan says that his mission has nothing to do with Anakin, Shmi says the most remarkable thing, and her words really sum up how the Force influences the destiny of every living being. ?Clear your mind,? she says to Obi-Wan, ?[b]and you will see the pattern[/b]. You are distracted, and maybe not as reflective as you should be.? Basically, the Force sets up a pattern, and then a Jedi must recognize the pattern and then make the right decision. And that decision cannot be based on fear, anger, or aggression because these are emotions that are linked to the dark side. That?s why Shmi tells Obi-Wan to clear his mind, and that?s why Yoda tells Luke in [i]Empire[/i] that a Jedi only knows the good side of the Force from the dark side when he is calm and at peace.

George?s filmic guru the late Akira Kurosawa once said that it is the choices that we make within the circumstances of life that we inherit that determine our morality and our freedom. He also said that [b]personality is destiny[/b]. That fate lies not in the socia

 

>>>> I really like that description of the ?Unifying (cosmic)/Living? aspects of the Force as the ?Spirit of Life? and ?Physical Manifestation of Life.? (Do you know where GL has stated that?) Certainly some food for thought there!

He says it in his commentary on the Definitive Edition Laserdiscs (sorry!) and in the book Star Wars: The Making of Episode I. This is also reiterated in Joseph Campbell?s The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

>>>> As I?ve understood it, the process of an individuals Living Force ?becoming one? with the greater Force is something that happens continually, rather than being released all of a sudden when they die (I don?t know if that?s what you meant, but that?s how I read your post.) So it?s not two separate ?Forces?, but two different ways of looking at the same Force (either from the top-down or bottom-up.)

In his story meeting transcripts for TESB, George describes the Force in great detail. He says that every life form in the SW universe creates a Force ?energy? via the act of living, and that this energy grows and envelops the organism like an aura during its lifetime. When a life form dies, the Force that it created joins with all the other energy in the universe, thus giving rise to one giant mass of Force energy in the sky. All life, in other words, is a part of the Force because it generates the power that makes the Force live, and death in the SW universe isn?t absolute?all life continues as part of the Force. My source for this is The Annotated Screnplays, and it?s also restated in The Making of Episode I.

>>>> That sounds unlike anything I?ve heard Lucas saying about the good & evil side of things. What?s your source for that?

The rough draft of Return of the Jedi?s screenplay and The Annotated Screenplays.

 

>>>> I particularly liked the quote from The Idiot- I love it when something completely unrelated to Star Wars illuminates something from the saga!

Actually, I forgot to mention that the two aren?t completely unrelated (sorry MeBeJedi, I know how much you hate it when I post excerpts from books):

---

Complete compassion, complete understanding, the knowledge that warring sides are identical; that black and white are really the same; that there is no high, no low; no heaven, no hell?this knowledge brings about the downfall of the hero. There is often a single scene which illustrates this: Sugata [from [i]Sanshiro Sugata[/i]] suddenly sees judo as meaningless if it means he must fight the father of the girl he is beginning to love; Togashi sees what Benkei is doing [from [i]Those Who Step on the Tiger?s Tail[/i]] and lets him go?and was later forced to commit suicide; the gangster in [i]Drunken Angel[/i] finally understands the doctor, turns and tries to kill his own boss, and is killed; the doctor in [i]Quiet Duel[/i] equates?through the disease?himself and the man who gave him syphilis, thus gives up his girl; the actor in [i]The Lower Depths[/i] gives up drinking, gets money for the journey by working, is suddenly overcome by knowledge, kills himself; the vengeful Mifune in [i]The Bad Sleep Well[/i] brings flowers to his wife, determines to be a good husband, is killed; even Sanjuro in [i]Yojimbo[/i] is almost undone by the compassion that he feels for the abducted wife and her husband; [b]and the Prince Myushikin[/b] [sic] [b]character in [i]The Idiot[/i] is, of course, the prototype of this hero[/b].

? Donald Richie, [i]The Films of Akira Kurosawa[/i][hr][/blockquote]Akira Kurosawa was a huge fan of Dostoevsky?s work. Similarly, George Lucas is a huge fan of Kurosawa?s films. If you didn?t already know, the book [i]The Films of Akira Kurosawa[/i] is the one from which Lucas copied nearly word for word his 1973 story synopsis for [i]Star Wars[/i].

 

"If the Jedi knew someone was going to die, say a Chancellor (before Palpatine) then really they shouldn?t do anything about it, all they should do is react to the circumstances they find themselves in. It is not there place to decide what is best for the GFFA they must only help the will of the force."

"The Sith are obviously different in that they use there knowledge of the will of the force to their advantage."

Actually, I would say that they use their knowledge of the future to their advantage. When Luke had his "vision" of Cloud City, he wasn't trying to use the Force. He was at peace and passive, and ready to "hear" the Force. It was the will of the Force for him to see it. Consequently, when Yoda actively tried to use the Force, he could not divine anything. Luke could tell they were in danger (which they were), but neither he nor Yoda could see if anyone would die. This makes sense after the fact because no one did die, but it was not part of Luke's vision.

In addition to this, I pointed out in Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!! that Vader, himself, has no visions in the OT, but becomes a slave to Palpatine's visions. What few visions he appears to have in the PT don't have much meaning, or he misinterprets them. The only one that really hits him, that he acts on, is the one about his mother. All of his other visions become wishful thinking ("I will stop people from dying", "I will become the most powerful Jedi"). He's so concerned about what will happen, that he begins to ignore what is happening right now!

"QGJ tells us the philosophy of living for the moment although it is interesting that he cheated to free Anakin and could be said to not be trusting the will of the force at that point. His student OB1 probably gives us the best example of the living force when he allows himself to be struck down by Vader, he knows this is the will of the force and can be seen to be smiling."

I would also agree with this. I believe it was Scott3eyez who stated something about Anakin not being intended to be found by the Jedi in the first place. The Jedi aren't the only people strong in the Force, they have merely turned it into a discipline. Unfortunately, Qui-gon has shown a flaw in the standard philosophy, and even goes against his own. This would explain why Anakin was created outside of the Republic, away from the Jedi - so that he would not be negatively influenced by anything other than the will of the Force.

In fact, I can't help but wonder... McCallum said "Tatooine will explain everything in Ep.III." I wonder if Shmi's death wasn't in some way designed to bring Anakin back from Coruscant, away from the Jedi. I know people have contemplated Sidious being behind this, but what if it was the Force instead. Clearly, Tatooine is a hotbed of Force intrigue. This would also explain why Obi-wan risked taking Luke back to Tatooine - there's something very important there.

"This all gives us a very straight line that the Jedi must tread, I wonder if the fact that the Jedi took such an active role in government led to their downfall, were the Jedi in fact dabbling in the Darkside?"

Well, since the government was obviously tainted, and the Jedi were assisting, if not advancing, their mandate, they are at least guilty of not following the will of the Force.

"Ghost in the machine?"

Eh? ?

"As I?ve understood it, the process of an individuals Living Force ?becoming one? with the greater Force is something that happens continually, rather than being released all of a sudden when they die"

As I understand it, all beings become one with the Force when they die - however, not all beings retain their identity when they die. That is a significant difference.

"I?ve always thought that the ?Noooo?? sounds more like Yoda than anyone else, and there?s definitely a snippet of Vader?s breathing in

 

"(sorry MeBeJedi, I know how much you hate it when I post excerpts from books)"

You've apparently forgotten the context of my "complaint".

(Although, you were showing improvement. )

 

>>>> Actually, I would say that they use their knowledge of the future to their advantage. When Luke had his "vision" of Cloud City, he wasn't trying to use the Force. He was at peace and passive, and ready to "hear" the Force. It was the will of the Force for him to see it.

Luke sees the future because that's what the dark side wanted him to see, and it is only revealed to him while he is using the dark side of the Force:

---

It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and that he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts [for [i]TESB[/i]] suggest that although one can?t see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. [b]For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader.[/b] When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.

? Laurent Bouzereau, [i]Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays[/i][hr]

[hr][b]MACE:[/b] The prophecy is coming true, the dark side is growing.
[b]YODA:[/b] And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future. Only going through the dark side can we see.

? From [i]Attack of the Clone[/i]?s screenplay[hr][/blockquote]Luke was able to see the future only at the very same moment that he was using the dark side. The dark side wanted Luke to fall into Vader?s trap so it reveals the future to him to show Luke that his friends are in distress.

>>>>[b][i] Assuming, of course, that this was the will of the Force to begin with...[/i][/b]

It?s only natural for this to be the will of the Force.

More Life = More Force

However, if Sidious is allowed to go unchecked, then the dark side would take control of Life. Then the infighting that exists between two Sith Lords would then spread to encompass all of humanity. The cancer then destroys the host.

No Life = No More Force

Sidious threatens to bring down all of creation.

>>>>[b][i] Assuming this was the will of the Force. Qui-gon [/i]did[i] influence the roll of the die.[/i][/b]

Qui-Gon was sent [i]because[/i] he was able to influence the roll of the die. Zeus had to send Hermes to trick Calypso into freeing Odysseus. Likewise the Force sends its messenger, Qui-Gon, to trick Watto into releasing Anakin.

>>>>[b][i] Besides, to say that the Force uses the Dark Side to influence people is akin to saying God uses evil to influence people. That makes no sense whatsoever. [/i][/b]

No it?s more like saying that God and the Devil are fighting one another for control of all creation:

[blockquote][hr]Hence the new mythology brought forth, in due time, a development away from the earlier static view of returning cycles. A progressive, temporally oriented mythology arose, of a creation, once and for all, at the beginning of time, a subsequent fall, and a work still in progress. The world no longer was to be known as a mere showing in time of the paradigms of eternity, but as a field of unprecedented cosmic conflict between two powers, one light and one dark. [?]

The world, consequently, is a compound wherein good and evil, light and dark, wisdom and violence, are contending for a victory. And the privilege and duty of each man?who, himself, as a part of creation, is a compound of good and evil?is to elect, voluntarily, to engage in the battle in the interest of the light.

? Joseph Campbell, [i]The Masks of God: Oriental Mythology[/i][hr][/blockquote]

 

"Luke sees the future because that what the dark side wanted him to see, and it is only revealed to him while he is using the dark side of the Force:"

For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.

Luke is using the Dark Side to lift the rocks! The reason this is the Dark Side is because his action is going against nature. The rocks are not supposed to be lifted off the ground - this is not "passive" use.

Luke's view of the future is a passive and unintentional use of the Force, moving the rocks is not.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MACE: The prophecy is coming true, the dark side is growing.
YODA: And only those who have turned to the dark side can sense the possibilities of the future. Only going through the dark side can we see.

? From Attack of the Clone?s screenplay
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I explained why this is so in my earlier post. Active use of the Force to see the future is quite different from passive. The Jedi are being beat in the same way that good guys are always beat by bad guys, they are unwilling to use "force" to the same extent as the bad guys.

"The dark side wanted Luke to fall into Vader?s trap so it reveals the future to him to show Luke that his friends are in distress."

Assumption, but certainly not an unlikely scenario. Again, it depends on the extent to which the Force actually controls events.

"Their unconditional devotion to making people?s lives better progressively got erased from their worldview."

"Assuming, of course, that this was the will of the Force to begin with..."

"It?s only natural for this to be the will of the Force."

"More Life = More Force"

I assumed you meant "better lives" in a general sense. There's a difference between life and quality of life. I presume, at this point, you were referring to their lives under galactic rule.

"However, if Sidious is allowed to go unchecked, then the dark side would take control of Life. Then the infighting that exists between two Sith Lords would then spread to encompass all of humanity. The cancer then destroys the host.

No Life = No More Force

Sidious threatens to bring down all of creation."

Agreed.

"Assuming this was the will of the Force. Qui-gon did influence the roll of the die."

"Qui-Gon was sent because he was able to influence the roll of the die. Zeus had to send Hermes to trick Calypso into freeing Odysseus. Likewise the Force sends its messenger, Qui-Gon, to trick Watto into releasing Anakin."

What do the screenplays say about this scene?

"Besides, to say that the Force uses the Dark Side to influence people is akin to saying God uses evil to influence people. That makes no sense whatsoever."

"No it?s more like saying that God and the Devil are fighting one another for control of all creation"

...and if you were referring to Palpatine as the embodiment of evil, I would agree with you. However, you are asserting that the Force is fighting itself (Light Side/Evil Side). As such, this "God", as stated by Lucas, is at war with itself. This is why your "Dark Side is a separate entity" doesn't make sense.

 

>>>> Active use of the Force to see the future is quite different from passive.

You see, now I think that?s where you?re a little confused. The future is revealed; it?s not something that can be ?actively? sought after. In the book Star Wars Mythmaking: Behind the Scenes of Attack of the Clones, George said that all a Jedi can hope for is that the Force is with them, and that it will reveal to them what?s going to happen in the future. One of the reasons the Jedi have become arrogant, George indicates, is that the Force has always been readily accessible to them. What?s more, they think it is their abilities that allow them to see the future, when in reality what little they know comes from what the good side of the Force was able to share with them, or what it wanted them to know. (Likewise, in my opinion, this is the same way it works for the Sith.) The Jedi are accordingly surprised, as shown in that scene with Mace and Yoda, when they comprehend that there is a void where the Force used to be. The Force isn?t talking to them anymore. George doesn?t say why this is, but my guess is that the dark side?s growing dominance has obscured the good side.

>>>> However, you are asserting that the Force is fighting itself (Light Side/Evil Side). As such, this "God", as stated by Lucas, is at war with itself. This is why your "Dark Side is a separate entity" doesn't make sense.

Sorry, but that?s just the way it is. The Cosmic Force is comprised of the good side and the dark side:

---

[b]The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity[/b], a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film. Obviously, in terms of moral issues, you always have what?s considered moral and what?s considered immoral. At the same time [b]if you are dealing with possible influences beyond what we can see, it?s traditionally been that good and bad[/b].

? George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, [i]Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays[/i][hr][/blockquote]

 

"Sorry, but that?s just the way it is. The Cosmic Force is comprised of the good side and the dark side:"

Actually, that's the way it was, in the second draft. In fact, you ignored the first part of the quote...

"I felt the Kiber Crystal was a way of articulating what was going on, but i decided that I didn't need it. It was better to make the Force more etheral than to have it solidified in a thing like the crystal."

The Force was made more etheral, as is described in the third draft on the next page...

In the third draft Ben explains the Force to Luke: "It is an energy field in oneself, a power that controls one's acts yet obeys one's commands. It is nothing, yet it makes marvels appear before your very eyes. All living things generate this Force field..."

Subsequent to this, the Kiber Crystal is dropped altogether.

While I can understand your attachment to earlier concepts, you must admit that later descriptions are more in line with what is described in the films.

"Active use of the Force to see the future is quite different from passive."

"You see, now I think that?s where you?re a little confused. The future is revealed; it?s not something that can be "actively" sought after. In the book Star Wars Mythmaking: Behind the Scenes of Attack of the Clones , George said that all a Jedi can hope for is that the Force is with them, and that it will reveal to them what?s going to happen in the future."

Well, first of all, there's your part from the A-S...

In the second draft Yoda tells Luke that he lacks concentration; Luke says he feels the Force the most when he is angry. Yoda warns him that anger is a dangerous path to the Dark Side. The Dark Side is aggressive while the good side is passive, and a Jedi must use the Force only for defense and knowledge, never for attack.

This makes sense in view of Lucas' earlier description of the Force on the prior page...

Lucas felt at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation.

Sounds like intent to me. Anyways...

If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.

Interesting that there's nothing said to support your assertion that "Luke sees the future because that's what the dark side wanted him to see, and it is only revealed to him while he is using the dark side of the Force." Were this truly the case, Yoda would have warned Luke of this, which he did not.

 

>>>> Actually, that's the way it was, in the second draft. In fact, you ignored the first part of the quote...

Bluff called? They?re two separate quotes on the subject of the Force, hence the new paragraph and the new set of quotations.

>>>> The Force was made more etheral, as is described in the third draft on the next page...

I agree, but I never said the Force wasn?t ethereal. In fact, I said it was an invisible (ethereal) energy field has two sides. ?If you are dealing with possible influences beyond what we can see,? George says, ?it?s traditionally been the good and the bad.? Do you even know what ethereal means?

>>>> While I can understand your attachment to earlier concepts, you must admit that later descriptions are more in line with what is described in the films.

Okay, I?ll bite. Exactly what are you saying is described in the movies? Every SW movie I saw portrayed the Force as being an invisible (ethereal) energy field that had a good side and a bad side. Likewise, everything that Lucas has said on the matter indicates that this is the case. (Unless you can dig up a quote where he says there?s no such thing as the dark side of the Force?it?s merely the intent of the user.)

Again, the Cosmic Force is comprised of a good side and a dark side:

---

The Force itself breaks into two sides: the Living Force and a greater, Cosmic Force. The Living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. [b]But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not.[/b]

? George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, [i]Star Wars: The Making of Episode I[/i], 1999[hr]
[hr]Yes, I know what that is. The groundwork has been laid in this episode. The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion?of not thinking of yourself all the time. [b]These are the two sides?the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction.[/b]

? George Lucas, ?Of Myth and Men,? [i]Time Magazine[/i], 1999[hr][/blockquote]

 

"Bluff called? They?re two separate quotes on the subject of the Force, hence the new paragraph and the new set of quotations."

Hey, at least you're honest. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. I finally got off my ass and bought the book just to double-check you.

"I agree, but I never said the Force wasn?t ethereal."

No, but it's becoming less of an entity. As the text said earlier, the Dark Side was construed as a villain in early meetings, but by Yoda's speech in ESB, it's just something that connects everything, and the negative aspect is hardly touched (though for good reason.)

"(Unless you can dig up a quote where he says there?s no such thing as the dark side of the Force-it?s merely the intent of the user.)"

Actually, you did it for me...

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion-of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides-the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

These are human emotions, which can effect how the Force is used.

Jedi and Sith use all powers equally, but it is how they are used that makes a difference. Mace killed Jango in self-defense, but Anakin killed the Tuskens in a state of rage. Luke almost killed Vader in a similar rage.

 

MeBeJedi

>>>Consequently, when Yoda actively tried to use the Force, he could not divine anything. Luke could tell they were in danger (which they were), but neither he nor Yoda could see if anyone would die. This makes sense after the fact because no one did die, but it was not part of Luke's vision.

The impression I got was that Yoda could see what Luke could, but no more.
I think that had to do with the fact that their seeing what had not yet happened also clearly had an influence on what was going to happen. If Luke had not gone to try to save them, maybe events would have unfolded differently.

?Difficult to see. Always in motion, the future.?

"I?ve always thought that the ?Noooo?? sounds more like Yoda than anyone else, and there?s definitely a snippet of Vader?s breathing in there too-"

>>>It is Qui-gon. Lucas and the novelization both state this. The breathing is foreshadowing.

I know the ?Anakin, Anakin? has been confirmed as Qui Gon, and the Official Site has confirmed Vader?s breathing- was the ?nooo? ever specifically confirmed as anyone?

>>>>Even the Prophecy, itself, is very vague, perhaps due in large part to all this motion. That being said, the Force, itself, like nature, will eventually overcome the acts of man over time, regardless of what one tries to do to create change.

In the context of how visions of the future can affect the outcome of events, the existence of the prophecy itself raises an interesting question.

If the prophecy hadn?t been known to Qui Gon, would he have gone to such lengths to make sure Anakin was trained?
It?s undeniable that the very existence of the prophecy has had a significant influence on the events surrounding what it foretold?

>>> What do the screenplays say about this scene? [?A Wager with Watto?]

I think the film itself makes it clear what Qui Gon is playing with.
?Greed can be a powerful ally?

Qui Gon is using Watto?s greed to get him to make the bet, then manipulating the Force to fix the outcome. I don?t know how this can be seen as anything other than meddling with the Dark Side. At the very least, it is interfering with Anakin?s fate.

I personally think that this moment is the explanation to why Yoda says Anakin?s future is clouded- because in bringing him to Coruscant, Qui Gon has altered his destiny and placed a new path before him.


bad radio

The Force itself breaks into two sides: the Living Force and a greater, Cosmic Force. The Living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not.

As I interpret it, this is saying that the greater force is what is calling the shots- the ?mystical energy field controlling everyone?s destiny.? In learning about the Force and ?seeing? your destiny, this gives you the choice of either following your destiny (?the Will of the Force??) or not- of doing what you think should be done. This *isn?t* the same as the Dark Side of the Force being a separate entity with it?s own Will, making it?s own decisions about what to show people etc. etc. as you say.

As I see it, the Dark Side is something internal, within the individual- the cave scene in ESB makes it clear, illustrating that Lukes danger in his personal war with Vader is of going down the same path and becoming like him. His enemy?s face is his own etc. etc.

>>> No it?s more like saying that God and the Devil are fighting one another for control of all creation

Which is all well and good, but overlooks the fact that no belief system that I know of depicts them as two truly opposite forces. God is always the one God (analogous to one Force), while the Devil is the fallen angel, cast out of heaven and into hell (which is usually defined as the absence of God?s presence- just as going to the Dark Side can be described as ?stepping out? of the Fo