Balance of the Force

>>>> In the prequels, Anakin is the chosen one who will bring balance to the force. Everyone believes that he ultimately fufills that prophecy by killing the Emperor. However, if he had let the Emperor destroy Luke, he and the Emperor would have died anyway- by that point the battle had tipped in the Rebellion's favor. So exactly how does Darth Vader bring balance to the force, then?

I think you?re assuming that the Emperor and Vader would?ve just hung around and waited for the rebels to blow up the Death Star. Rest assured that after disposing of Luke, the two of them would?ve jumped aboard the first Imperial shuttle and escaped (just like Luke does in the movie).

Anakin does bring balance when he kills the Emperor.

 

Maybe, but as Luke said, his overconfidence was his weakness. Was he even aware that the shield was down? Tarkin was overconfident too, and he blew up on the first one.

 

hey the force balance was deminishing only when papatine came before this sith existed but not like this

also from EU in the new republic also there are sith wannabies
the rule of 2 implies only to the sith masters there can be many low level force users
that is what is meant to be conveyed
but due to the jedi the 2 sith masters couldnt make anymore followers
i.e low level force users


many will flame me now but think what i have said it makes sense and certainly binds all the EU, movies games and the balance is not in numbers thing

 

I'm not sure what you said, but this stuck out.

"but due to the jedi the 2 sith masters couldnt make anymore followers"
The "Rule of Two" was a self-imposed rule of the Sith. The Jedi forgot that they existed, remember? If the Jedi thought them extinct, then the Sith wouldn't have to follow a rule that was imposed on them.

 

(from a thread in the 3SA forums)

Here's the way I see it, which I feel is consistent with the films:

1. The Force, by default, is in balance.

2. The existence of beings who can manipulate the Force creates the possibility of putting it out of balance.

3. The Jedi Code is established to govern the activities of these beings, to keep the Force in balance. A Jedi who adheres to the Code will cause minimal disruption in the natural flow of the Force.

4. Individuals who fall to the Dark Side unbalance the Force, as their use of the Force causes a disturbance in its ordinary flow.

5. Palpatine's manipulation of the Force causes such a disturbance, creating the need for someone to restore the balance.

 

bump

Currently discussing parallels to the Tao.

From the Tao Te Ching:

TWENTY-NINE

Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it?
I do not believe it can be done.

The universe is sacred.
You cannot improve it.
If you try and change it, you will ruin it.
If you try and hold it, you will lose it.

So sometimes things are ahead and sometimes they are behind;
Sometimes breathing is hard, sometimes it comes easily;
Sometimes there is strength and sometimes weakness;
Sometimes one is up and sometimes down.

Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses and complacency.


DarthNigel- I also found the word "complacency" to be interesting. I think there is a good parallel to the Jedi- their hesitation to act, with Anakin, the Clone Army, the Senate etc., is really a large part of why the Republic falls. They also became complacent after the first destruction of the Sith. The Jedi believed they could not return and therefore became blind to its eventual occurence.

 

If I underastand what u r saying,it's that the force can only be in balance when only jedi
exist,so if this is true then that sucks for
those of us who have read all the expanded universe books,because in the expanded universe,there r lots of dark jedi(that is the same thing as sith right)which either means that anikin didn't fulfil the prophicy or the writers didn't do their homework

 

First of all, I am reluctant to base an attempt at a coherent theory on anything from the EU.

That having been said, my theory does not require that *only* Jedi exist in order for the Force to be in balance. All I'm saying is that Dark-side Force users present a threat of imbalance. Part of the Jedi's responsibility is to counter and attempt to neutralize the imbalance created by those darksiders. There will always be some degree of imbalance, however minimal, when there exist Force-users with imperfect souls.

I would posit that the prophesy that says Anakin returns balance to the Force is fulfilled when he destroys the Emperor, because the Emperor caused an imbalance so much greater than any other darksider.

 

Dark Jedi are not Sith. There can only be 2 Sith, master and apprentice. The apprentice then becomes the master and so on. Dark Jedi are (former) Jedi who use the force for their own ends.

I'm not that familiar with the EU, past say, the Zahn trilogy... but remember that the EU (with no connection to GL) is not cannon. However, if I had to speculate... the Sith is like a religion, much like the Jedi. They seriously abuse the Force, and they have much more power than your average Dark Jedi. Anakin brought balance by eliminating the Sith (presumably) once and for all. The Dark Jedi, if they exist at the time, pale in comparison to the Sith (in terms of Force abuse). I don't know... again Dark Jedi (past the OT... as Ventress could be considered a Dark Jedi during the CW) are an EU thing and shouldn't be taken as gospel.

 

Agreed. It was but one of many ways he went against the traditional teachings of the Sith (1 master - 1 apprentice, be stealthy, don't fight a war in Europe on two fronts.)

 

Nigel- LOL, we think alike

MeBeJedi- be stealthy, don't fight a war in Europe on two fronts. Love it.

 

The thing that happens in the PT which puts the Force out of balance isn't just the rise of Darth Sidious, but the state of the galaxy beforehand that was in a position where he could take advantage of it. (Remember than he didn't sieze power- he engineered events so that power was handed over to him.)

After Anakin's sacrifice which restored balance, even Palpatine's return (in the Expanded Universe, as I understand it, through having his reincarnated soul transferred into one of the clones of himself that he kept at the ready for when his Dark Side powers had used up his body's life-energy #snigger#) wasn't enough to disturb it's balance again.

 

After Anakin's sacrifice which restored balance, even Palpatine's return wasn't enough to disturb it's balance again.


Whoa... the EU should not be used to prove arguments. That's an individual writer's take, it has nothing to do with what GL orginally envisioned.

 

I agree with RebelScum77 - not to bash the EU or anything like that, but our concern here is how the Force is depicted in the films, which is why we're in the SWS forum.

 

I agree completely- IMHO, the EU is a whole seperate body of fiction to the films.

That said, I think that the rise of the Empire does owe a great deal to the state of the galaxy when Sidious arrived on the scene, as much as his own manipulations.

 

" Whoa... the EU should not be used to prove arguments. That's an individual writer's take, it has nothing to do with what GL orginally envisioned."

EU can be brought in to support an argument. Whether or not you accept it is up to you, but it's allowable nonetheless.

 

well, i think if we want to have really good debats on these fourms that we have to include some EU. To tell the truth, things arn't explained very well at all in the films. Which is why there is still so much guessing.

eu > films

 

I think the best Star Wars debates have nothing to do with a third party author's interpretation of the Star Wars films, but that's just my opinion.

>>>To tell the truth, things arn't explained very well at all in the films. Which is why there is still so much guessing.

Another point of view would be that the films stimulate the imagination of the viewer.

 

" Another point of view would be that the films stimulate the imagination of the viewer."

What about stimulating a "third party author's interpretation of the Star Wars films" ? ?

 

The subject of discussion in the forum is the films of the Star Wars saga. Everyone outside of GL has equal standing to provide their interpretations of the films.

I agree that many of the EU authors do have valuable insights into the films (whether they are explicit or implicit in the books), but so do a lot of other people. Just because somebody is an EU author that does not give their opinion or interpretation any more credibility than the rest of us.

At the end of the day everyone's interpretation has to stand or fall on its own merits, whether that person is a writer, fanboy, doctor, lawyer, policeman, whatever.

I'm not saying the interpretations to be found in the EU have no value, only that in the context of this forum, their source does not give them any special privileged credibility over anyone else's opinion.

 

It depends what school of criticism you practice. The reader-response criticism method focuses on the reader, the author's intention itself is irrelevant. This is a very valid approach to critical thinking when applied to a text, in this case Star Wars.

 

Spook, I am a believer in the reader-response school 100%.

When I said "everybody outside of GL", I only meant that since the Saga is a work in progress, GL is in the unique position to create or alter the work that we are all interpreting.

 

"only that in the context of this forum, their source does not give them any special privileged credibility over anyone else's opinion."

Oops, I hope I didn't give that implication. I just hate to see any EU thrown out simply because its ideas didn't originate from a poster on the forum.

 

MeBeJedi - no, I don't think you gave that implication, I was just attempting to articulate a position on the role of EU in this forum that's all. I think we're on the same page.

 

I agree with you guys as well.

Just because an EU author has published a book, does not mean his opinion is any more valid than anyone else's here. When you use the EU to support an argument, that's fine, just remember that that is only one author's opinion of how a certain story happens. That opinion should not be seen as "more" valid.

You get into grey areas though, like the CW cartoons for example. GL did not write the stories himself, but he did tell them what they could and could not do. He gave them characters to use, one of which will be in the movie (supposedly), and let them use the music and sound effects. He then approved the finished version. This EU material should probably be considered *nearly* cannon, for these reasons.

But anyway... this is way off topic