Balance of the Force

The interesting thing about the cartoons is, they really can't have a lot of specific plot material, since not everyone who watches the movies will necessarily watch the cartoons.

Case in point, TF.n talks about how the cartoons are far more action than words - in fact, an early cartoon has almost no dialogue at all. So now, all we have is the actual "Clone Wars", rather than anything of real substantive......uh, substance.

The reviewer said that the cartoons are essentially smaller versions of the intro to the Clone War in AOTC. Is this what "Star Wars" has come to? ?

 

Well I think we sort of knew coming into these that there wouldn't be a whole lot of substance. I mean they're 3 minutes long each. Nothing important is really going to happen, although related to GL, they still are EU and GL is not going to let anything really important happen. He doesn't want to give anything away before the movie. The main purpose is to create buzz and give us something while we wait. I would go so far as to say this is what "Star Wars has become." The cartoons were never meant to be more than what they are.

Sure I wish they were longer and more indepth, but pratically, these were created before and during the filming of Episode III. GL was rewriting the script all the time. He didn't want to be locked into anything. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know, but it was the situation surrounding the creation of the cartoons and the movie.



edit: I'm as guilty as anyone... but before the mods come lay down the law... STAY ON TARGET.

 

"The lightsaber thing also has to do with overreliance on technology. When you only rely on that, and it fails you, you are in trouble. The climax of all the movies is when Luke throws his lightsaber away."

This quote from another thread brought an interesting thought to mind (just to give you some idea of how my brain works.) First of all, let me preface this by saying that this is simply a stream of conciousness, and I am aware that both Kershner and Lucas did not want to explain the true nature of the Dagobah cave (nor will Lucas do so in Ep.III) That being said, I could help but wonder...

Luke throwing his lightsaber away in ROTJ made me think back to the cave. When Luke asks Yoda what's in there, Yoda replies "Only what you take with you.", which, in addition to Luke's lightsaber ("Your weapons... you will not need them.") would also refer to Luke's fears, doubts, and possibly even his destiny. I couldn't help but imagine what Luke would have seen had he thrown his lightsaber down in the cave upon seeing Vader. Would he have seen the alternate reality which ended coming true instead?

Similarly, Yoda appears to "notice" the presence of the tree before Luke - that is to say, he gives an indication that something's up. My question is, was there really something inherently "dark" in the tree, or was this a place of Dark Side meditation/contemplation for Yoda. I ask this because Yoda is known to dabble in the "Dark Side" of the Force in the novelizations (i.e. looking into the future, hearing Qui-gon, etc.) In addition, the OT novelizations have Yoda telling Luke that he must get through the Dark Side to the other side, something Anakin was unable to do.

What if the cave was actually a "trial" constructed by Yoda to ultimately test Luke? I know the EU has a different explanation for its existence, but this scenario really struck a chord with me. As I've stated before, everyone has a Light and Dark side, the difference being which "side" the user chooses to follow. Clearly, Yoda has some knowledge of the cave, as can be ascertained by his warning. He certainly picked an appropriate time to bring Luke by the tree, and had it not been for Luke's experience in the tree, he would not have successfully accomplished his task in ROTJ, so there are clear benefits to exploring one's "Dark Side" (which, of course, goes against the reasoning that the Dark Side of the Force is at odds with the Light Side.) Also, I find it unlikely that Yoda just "happened" to find a cave already imbued with the Dark Side, much less the fact that a cave, in and of itself, somehow becomes strong in one side of the Force.

Anyways, I just thought I'd put all this down. If it doesn't make sense, I'll try to explain it better if necessary.

 

No, it makes sense. Good theory, I like it alot.

 

I like your thinking, MeBeJedi, and your point toward the end about each person exploring their own personal dark side reminded me of Yoda's line, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..."

Note that Yoda says "Dark Path", not "Dark Side", which leaves space for the possibility that simply exploring the dark side within oneself, when done properly, can be a tool of contemplation, even education, whereas starting down the dark path, i.e. letting the dark side influence your actions, is the thing that must be avoided.

 

[image=http://www.lookalike.com/talentbooking/lookalikes/images/drevil.jpg]

DarthNigel, you complete me.

 

It would appear that the word is getting around. This thread is full of posts about the Force not having sides.

id Anakin train in the dark side? - WARNING: Links to Spoilers Forum

Considering how many PM's I've received in support of my posts, I guess more people have been reading the thread than I ever knew.

I particularly liked this line...

"There is no Dark Side training, even Maul was well trained in the JEDI arts."

Interesting point.

 

Glad to hear people are starting to come around to the "there are no "sides" to the Force" argument I've always believed that. The Force's relation to the Tao is just too strong.

"The Dark Path"- very good. The Jedi are constantly walking that line between Light and Dark. It must be incredibly difficult to not use the Force for your own will- even if it seems like a small thing. But, at the same time, it must be done. To sense someone using the Dark Side, it makes sense that the Jedi have to tap into the Dark Side as well. All that intense Jedi training is understandable. And I also think that people aren't trained to use the Dark Side only. Using the Force is using the Force, for good or bad- the only difference is desire and honing the necessary skills. The Sith can do the same things the Jedi can and vice versa. The difference is, the Jedi choose not to develop their "Dark Side" skills, because they abuse the Force.

 

The meme is contagious, evidently.

I would expect that the "Force has no sides" concept would be difficult to swallow for many fans initially, but it's true, and it's eminently defensible in thoughtful debate. It's nice to know it's caught on.

 

Hey guys, I'm actually making a fanfilm called The Dark Path. We start filming in under a year. The script is written and everything is progressing great. Just thought I'd let you all know. check out the link in the bottom of my sig for more information!

 

I just wanted to copy/paste this excellent post here.

Ransom in SPY REPORT: Balance to the Force in 3SA

"The only reason for putting a prophecy in a story is for the characters to misunderstand it. Otherwise all the prophecy does is give away the end. The deal with prophecies is that they always come true, just not in the expected way. It's dramatic irony. It's also how free will and fate can co-exist. (Be warned Harry Potter fans -- whatever that prophecy means, rest assured it is different from what Dumbledore thinks it means.)"

"With that in mind, this tidbit is perfect. Since the chosen one and the sith apprentice appear to be different people in the prophecy (prophecies always have a deceptive ambiguity that leads to the misunderstanding), at the end of Ep.III we're led to believe that Anakin is NOT the chosen one, that Qui-Gon was wrong. I'm sure that's what Palpatine thinks. Later generations will think Luke is the only one who can destroy Palpatine, so imagine the surprise when he throws down his saber and accepts death over the darkside! The end of ROTJ shows that everybody was wrong, especially Palpatine. The lesson, as always: those who try to master fate will find themselves by fate mastered. (Credit to Tolkien for the last sentence.)"

 

Upping for discussion.

 

Upping this for new users.

 

Absolutly exellent post way to bring it all home.

 

I was thinking that Anakin ultimately kills the Emperor, but he certainly went the long way around to do it. The Jedi prophecy about one person bringing balance to the force is fulfilled by Anakin. But, he only makes it happen when he witnesses his son being fried.

It just makes me wonder what the prophecy of "bringing balance to the force", is all about. Is the destruction of the Emperor, the Sith, and the Dark Side, really a "balancing" factor? I mean, "balance" is all about having equal amounts. Complete elimination of the dark side doesn't "balance" things out, it significantly slants it in favor of the light side.

Maybe Anakin's true destiny is hinted at in ESB. Vader tells Luke that he will complete his training, and that they will rule the universe as father and son. Vader is obviously affected by Luke's presence, and their connection is immediate. I think that Vader saw in Luke, the good part of his and Amidala's personalities. When Vader and Luke meet in ROTJ, I almost thought that Vader was going to take Luke and get the hell out of there.

The two of them could potentially balance each other out. Luke would focus on balancing Vader's dark side tendencies, and vice versa. So when Vader offers to complete Luke's training and rule the galaxy with him, I always assumed that would mean that Vader and Luke would murder the Emperor. This would be the same result as what actually happened, and then the two of them would rule the galaxy in more of a balanced way.

 

When I hear, "bring balance to the Force", I think of a merging of Light and Dark side. A controlled use of the rage and anger of the Dark side, mixed with the compassion and defense of the Light side.

A great holocast of the Jedi Order AND the Sith, is a balancing of sorts, but certainly an extreme way of fulfilling the prophecy. I guess that it's a pretty cool way of doing it, but I don't see that as "bringing balance". When the smoke clears, Luke is left as the sole practioner of the Force. If he is going to restart the Jedi Academy, and base the training on what HE knows, then where does that leave the Sith and the Dark side? Certainly not in "balance".

 

How come my posts never post?! *sigh* Anyway, I basically said what you later said in your second post. In the end, Anakin does bring balance, except that Luke is left. The Light Side has a slight advantage, so the whole thing can start all over again. Either that, or Luke himself is a perfectly balanced individual, and as long as he teaches others the same way that he is, the Jedi themselves will remain a balanced order.

 

I guess I'm caught up on the word "balance" within the prophecy. "Balance", suggests two sides being equal. Maybe the purge of the Jedi Order, and the Sith, is the ultimate answer. Both sides are at square one.

The Jedi are left with Luke.

The Sith are left with maybe some Dark Jedi somewhere else in the galaxy.

 

Mara Jade?

But the Force may not necessarily be in balance at that very moment. It may be tipped toward the Light, as it was again in the beginning. Or you could say that bringing the Light to more power was balance, since the Dark Side was gaining the upper hand all throughout the prequels.

 

Well, as some might have seen, my original post was closed by the moderators. Considering *this* thread hasn't been update in four and a half months, it seemed like it was well within my right to start a new thread. Apparently not.

So, here it is again.

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Greetings all. In some random net surfing on Count Dooku, I found this amazing article that I figured should definitely be shared on this forum. It was written by Ypiana, and can be found at

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Starsider&message.id=223664

For universal convenience however, I'll post it here.

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The Force is the power that animates the Galaxy. In sentient beings it's evident in their imagination and actions. All life in the Galaxy represents The Force simply by the act of living. The power of life and death is The Force. The Force is the imagination - indivisible from energy and power - that built matter from energy and life from matter, and willed the Galaxy. It's an imagination so broad and unimaginably powerful that it has willed the entire Galaxy into being and all nearly all actions within the Galaxy - from a rain forest growing on Naboo, to the violent volcanoes on Lok, are carried out to the ever-flowing will of The Force.

Sentient beings are created by The Force as well. While nature is the face of The Force, sentience is its reflection. The ability to think, to reason, and to imagine is the essence of The Force. The Force is subjective. It creates and destroys with an even hand. The destructive power of Nature is balanced by the persistent power of peace. The volcano obliterates the land and covers it in death, yet life reclaims those grounds long before geology can repeat the destruction.

Sentient beings are a microcosm of The Force with their free will. They are free to define what is right and wrong, which ultimately makes those choices infinitely important, for they are the ones at the helm of their destiny, their very actions determine the nature of The Force and The Galaxy. Some of these sentients, chosen for reasons unknown and at random, are granted a special connection to the power of The Force through symbiont life forms in their cells called midichlorians. Whether midichlorians are antennae connected to the Force, or simply generators of The Force themselves, is unknown. Those who are strong with The Force have long recognized the two faces of creation: peace and destruction, and disciples of The Force adhere to one or more principles, mainly The Dark Side or Light Side of The Force.

Recognition of the opposing power of The Force rose with its disciples, and with that developed adherents of the two sides. Sentients unusually connected with The Force, through preference or discipline of their school, choose to draw their power and imitate either the Dark Side or the Light Side. Over time, students of the two powers became known as The Sith and The Jedi, respectively, and were antagonists.

Through a series of conflicts extending from prehistory, The Jedi proved victorious, wiping out The Sith. In the aftermath, some students of The Force, those rare independent minds capable of perception beyond instilled teaching, found the new peace in conflict with the will of The Force. If Sith and Jedi were reflections of The Force, the domination of one over the other, while being the natural propensity of both factions, was ultimately wrong. This view was heresay, and its proponents quickly rejected from the Jedi Order who never gained the status to spread their philosophy to others.

For these outcasts, life without an antagonist, while safe and comfortable, was ultimately decadent. The eradication of the enemy guaranteed the fragmentation of the Jedi Order, or an inevitable turnover from good to evil. The will of The Force dictated that an unopposed power of Light would eventually grow corrupt from within. Ancient sages, looking indirectly into the future, had long called for a 'Balance to The Force.' The true nature of this balance was unknown to those who direct

 

I'm rather new here, and have found this topic to be fascinating reading.

However, I don't agree with this last post that Qui-Gonn was in league with Dooku and Palpatine. I could point to many so-called "evidences", but it just feels wrong to me. QGJ's character was too compassionate in TPM.

Additionally, I have my own opinion about the nature of the Force, but since it is my own opinion, and rather selectively reported by nothing more than my own observations (and no Campbell or Kurosawa references), I don't have much hope that this will be of interest to others. But in the spirit of enlightened narcissism, I will share.

I believe the Force to be the motive power in the universe. If living things generate the Force, then the universe would seem to be expanding is to provide room for continuously expanding life and Force. Or, put another way, the purpose of the Force is to foster life.

The Force can be manipulated by those with proper insight, training and talent. A "dark-side act" consists of any action that is counter to the purpose or will of the Force.

This becomes a slippery slope, since to many who become dominated by the dark side of the force no doubt begin by using the end to justify the means.

I concur with the idea that the force is naturally balanced, and that dark side users are a cancer to it.

Thanks for listening.

 

Welcome to Saga, Hightower (must...resist...making...Police...Academy...joke... )

I concur with the idea that the force is naturally balanced, and that dark side users are a cancer to it.

Something just came to my mind. What if part of the loss of balance is the Jedi losing their humanity. Let me explain. Jedi philosophy says that 1. You must never give in to anger or hate. 2. You must never give in to emotion. 3. You mustn't make personal attachements. All of these are parts of the normal human condition. We have to seek intimate connections with other people or we die. We have to give in to anger from time to time, that makes us human.

The Force is created by all livings things, that means that normal humanity makes the Force. Jedis are trying really hard to push away things that make them human, and are thus losing that connection to the Force.

Dark side users, on the other hand, go to the most primal aspects of humanity and forge a more powerful connection with the Force than consumes them really quickly. The DS is the faster path to power because of this.

Anakin and then Luke bring balance to the Force by eliminating these sides of the equation. The Jedi who are losing their humanity, and the Sith who use their feral side. Luke, the first of the new Jedi, is more human. He is allowed and able to make intimate connections with people and does give in to anger from time to time, although he doesn't let it consume him, as we saw in the final TotJ duel.

 

Very interesting ideas!

I have been thinking myself in circles about this...

I like to think that part of the explanation for the loss of Jedi power is the artificial way they distance themselves from the creatures of the galaxy. Obviously, if one cares too much about personal feelings, that could interfer with the ability to sense the will of the force. However, the beings of the galaxy mostly have feelings, and since Obi-Wan and Vader both told Luke to trust or search his feelings, there seems to be an interesting razor's edge dichotomy on what Jedi are actually supposed to do with their feelings.

A possibility is that both the focus and nature of those feelings have to do with whether the force user is using the force in a positive or negative way. Focus on the needs of others in a protective way would be the positive (or natural) method of using the force, whereas focus on the needs of self for gratification is the way of the dark side.

 

In six pages of post I haven't seen reference to The Son of The Suns.


I agree with RebelScum77 about the force and the Tao...
yet I don't think the yin / yang balance fits because the two sides of the Tao
don't actually represent opposing forces (e.g. light/dark, good/evil, male/female)
but rather Wu Chi (the unmanifest world of pure potential)
and Tai Chi (the material world created out of the void).

The play of opposites can exist only in the material world, for in the unmanifest
(what quantum physics calls non-local zones), these distinctions are meaningless.

*sigh* I'm beginning to feel the Wachowski Bros had a better handle on metaphysics than Lucas...
and I'm torn for thinking it...

 

I like your yin-yang theory, T16.

In addition to any "Son of Suns" reference, we have also never seen the exact text of the prophecy, have we?