Basher Sanctuary Episode I: The Phantom Thread

Basher Sanctuary
Episode I

The Phantom Thread

Turmoil has engulfed the JC. The quality of the PT is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a deadly blockade of CGI characters, LFL has stopped anyone from bashing the PT in the TPM Forum.

While the Mod Squad of the JC endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Admin of the Mod Squad secretly dispatches two moderators, guardians of peace and justice in theforce.net, to settle the conflict...

And so the great saga of the Basher Sanctuary begins.... but anyway, enough of the parodies, down to business.

First, welcome everyone. It is a new age for this forum. We've flown passed another 5,000 post count Sanctuary, we've seen the coming and going of our beloved moderators, Quixotic and Oakessteve (who now haunt these forums as a VIPs), we've seen the rise of a new administration to this forum, and the dawn of a new year. As such, it is fitting that we continue anew with the fourth (or should I say first? ) addition of this thread.

Most everyone here is familiar with the Basher Sanctuary and it's rules. I thought about re-typing them, but thought also that Quix did a great job in the last thread, so I will merely copy/paste what he wrote.

The "Rules"
First and foremost, we discuss the films, not the posters. This thread is not a haven for flaming, trolling, or flame-baiting. If these types of behaviors occur, they will result in warnings and bannings. Historically, "bashers" have gotten a bad name - it is within our power to demonstrate what it means to be good netizens. Treat your fellow fans with respect, even if you disagree vehemently with them. If you are flamed, turn the other cheek and contact a mod - that's what we're here for. If a troll appears, don't feed them - contact a mod instead.
Discussions in this thread must remain related to TPM. Discussions of other films, both in the saga and out of it, must be related back to TPM in some manner. Being on topic is what kept and keeps the Sanctuary here - if it is to continue, it must remain topical.
Disagreement is permitted and encouraged. "Gushing", however, is off-topic. What does this mean? I'll give you an example:

"I think that the characterization of Jar Jar Binks suffered from how Ahmed Best portrayed him. He could have been portrayed with a lot more dignity and a lot less slapstick."

This is acceptable:

"I disagree. I think it helped sell the character by making him someone you might be embarassed to hang out with - he's supposed to be awkward and an ill-fit in civilized society."


It allows for a difference of opinion and shows mutual respect.

This is unacceptable:

"You just don't get it."
"Chewie wasn't any better."
"Why do you post on a board for a film you hate?"
"If you only took some time to actually WATCH the film you'd realize why he had to be this way."


This immediately shows disrespect for your fellow poster, and antagonizes someone, provoking an e-fight. This is trolling - intentionally posting in a manner designed to provoke a negative reaction.
"Bashing" occurs in this thread. While discussions and different viewpoints are welcome, you must recognize the slant taken by the frequenters of this thread. Just as the Royal Handmaiden Society would take a dim view to posters denigrating the Handmaidens, just as the TPMDF takes a dim view to unabashed criticism of the movie, so, too, does the Basher's Sanctuary take a dim view to unabashed praise of the film. The crux of this rule is this: the posters in here share a common impression of the film, and as such, certain premises are taken for granted (i.e., that the film is not on par with the previous films). Do not expect to find much support or welcome for statements like "PPOR" when a poster isn't pleased with an aspect of the film. It makes about as much sense as walking into a McDonald's and becoming irate about not finding a bevy of Vegan-friendly wares for sale.


Anyway, bash away! [face_

 

Well, I must say, it's nice to be able to post in the new, improved Gusher Sanctuary, and I'll...

AGH! I'm in the wrong place!

*runs out screaming*

 

damn! I was hoping to grab that first post! and a gusher got it!

 

I hope this thread lives up to the hype. Cuz I already have 20 Mcdonalds Basher Sanctuary Episode I: The Phantom Thread collectors cups. And the new charecter Binary binary Sunset looks like he is going to be pretty KooL.

 

Look, I'm really sorry I corrupted the Sanctuary with my presence. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again, I promise. Oh, wait a minute, I'm here again aren't I...jolly sorry about all this, don't know what I was thinking of...*gets shoved out the door by SW3*

 

Well my preconceptions and expectations mean that this thread is bound to be a disappointment.

g

 

@ gez

This is my worst nightmare - an SE version of the BS!

Why couldn't Luca...Stryphe have left the original for those who liked it the way it was!?!

//pokes finger in mouth

 

Stryphe, I was hoping you'd do this. Good job!

 

I've decided to join you basherfolk for this thread.

Why?

(1) This is a good thread to discuss LOTR and comics and stuff in. Sometimes occasionally Star Wars is mentioned and then we might disagree, but other than that we'll have a jolly good time.

(2) While I still like TPM overall I found it disappointing compared to the OT, and I do have one or two nasty things I can say about it.

(3) To up my post count.

(4) Sometimes I read this thread and say "grrrr, I want to argue the point just raised, but dare I post in the Sanctuary?" Finally I could bear it no longer and decided "Okay, I'll jump in on the next Sanctuary". Ta-da.

(5) I'm hoping you'll give out nifty titles like the DF does.

(6) To better understand the problems other people have with the saga.

(7) Other things.



So! Let me introduce myself in terms that are important to a discussion of this sort.

I've been a SW fan since I was around eight years old.

I rank the SW films thusly:
ANH ... A+
AOTC ... A-
ROTJ ... B+
ESB ... B+ (but slightly lower)
TPM ... B
Holiday Special ... F

Yes, I think ESB is overrated. Let the flame war commence.

I enjoy fan films and all sorts of SW geekery.

I prefer the SEs, support the idea of UEs, don't care who shoots first. However I believe that the theatrical editions (and I mean the THEATRICAL editions, not the versions some of us grew up watching on video even pre-1997) should be made available for purchase on DVD when the time comes.

I enjoy the EU sometimes, but sometimes not. I sort of have my own personal view of canon where I'll discount things if I just plain don't like them. For the most part though I am on the completist side.

I rank the LOTR films thusly (well, it's important for this thread)
FOTR ... A+
ROTK ... B+
T2T ... B

I am a bit of an LOTR purist. Eh.

I don't like The Matrix much at all. Still haven't seen Revolutions. Animatrix is pretty neat though.


And now, time for some healthy SW criticism.*
Least favorite moment of the saga: the eopie fart. Why George why? It's not even a GOOD fart joke. You could have at least tried to make a GOOD fart joke.
Least favorite character: Boss Nass. It breaks my heart to say this as I love Brian Blessed. But Nass did not fit well IMHO.
* Not my best criticism I'm afraid, as I'm a bit tired. Bring up Nass again sometime and I'll rip into him.


Okay, enough introductions. Mesa tired.*
* Yes, I like Jar Jar. Boy, I'm gonna fit well in this thread. Don't worry, I shalll post respectfully at all times, and we'll all have some fun. Other 'gushers' and on-the-fence folk have done well in this thread sometimes.



EDIT:
I just realized.
With my comment about the fart, I am the first person to criticize TPM in the whole thread.
And since this is Episode I... am I the first one in the whole saga?!
My God, some gusher I've turned out to be! Let he among us without sin cast the first, etc.!


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Adam, I can forgive a lot to anyone who places the 1977 SW film at the top of the list with a grade of A+.

 

"(5) I'm hoping you'll give out nifty titles like the DF does."

Yeah! About time! I wanna be in Rogue Squadron!

"Let he among us without sin cast the first CGI stone!"

Adam, welcome. It's truly a pleasure to welcome you here.

 

Binary, to put things in perspective, there are only four feature films around I give an A+... Ghostbusters, ANH, Dogma, FOTR.

I'd consider ANH the greatest film ever made, but Ghostbusters remains my personal favorite.

I actually think my love of ANH informs my opinions of the other films, PT included. What I so love about ANH is the tone, a tone of freewheeling, lighthearted, imaginative fun. ANH told an interesting story with some intelligent content attached, but it foremost stayed true to its serial roots and just plain didn't take itself seriously.

One of my fave scenes in the saga is Luke and Leia's rope swing in ANH. I point to it as the scene that sums up "The Star Wars Feel" at its best, the optimal tone to shoot for. A farmboy in silly armor holds a beautiful princess close and swings over a Big Chasm That Is There For No Damn Reason whilst being shot at, all to the tune of brassy bold music. Pure magic.

As other episodes came along, Lucas decided to make more of an epic to accomodate the story. Fine, I suppose, but really, I think his heart was in silly serials all along.

ESB to me is the most 'standard-movie' of all the films. And while it definitely is a well-made movie, even better-made than some of the other SWs, it just doesn't have enough of what makes SW special. I think it might be Kershner's fault. He's actually probably a better director than Lucas -- I'd certainly rather see Kershner than Lucas helm a more typical movie, say, a family drama or a romantic comedy. But to me ESB just feels too safe, too off-the-shelf, for much of its run.

ROTJ, better tone, poorer technical qualities.

Then TPM. Oh, TPM.
TPM is a paradox for me. I think it's got a good screenplay and good ideas. And I think it's the most intelligent of the SW films.
Unfortunately, I don't think its intelligence serves it. It's got some neat subtleties and subtext and what-all, but I shouldn't have to THINK to enjoy a Star Wars movie. The other SW movies INVITE you to think, if you want... TPM MAKES you think. To me that is unwelcome. I prefer my Star Wars as simple escapist adventure.
Couple this with TPM's all-too-frequent "kiddie" moments and you have an uneven film.
Couple this with technical issues and you have a problem on your hands.


AOTC for me struck as good a tone as I think we can expect to get five movies in. (Lucas couldn't possibly go back to simple serial style at this point... the plot's too heavy. Alas.) For the most part, for me, AOTC combines the epic qualities and strong drama of the non-ANH films with the simple fun and wacky off-the-wall over-the-top silliness I so love in ANH.



While TPM blew it for me in terms of tone (and other things, we'll talk later), AOTC proved to me "George has still got it".

So what about AVBE*? Wellll... all this crap about "Episode III has to be dark! I want it to be dark! Dark! Dark darkness!" doesn't float my boat. I'm predicting the darker material in it will turn me off a bit. Still, I've heard some good spoilers and some bad ones... I think AVBE has a shot at third or fourth place on my list, not bad for a six-film list I guess.

'Course, all bets are off if Salacious Crumb could score a cameo.

We shall see.



* Incidentally, what's with the title A Very Big Explosion? Doesn't sound Lucaslike to me. What about "The Explosion of Black Doom" or "Explosions From Beyond"?


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Awesome, a new hangout. And some gushers decided to invade...and disrupt our discussion of Luca$ and his horrid prequels.

 

I'm so tired of Lucas's mega-marketing of SW.

Back in 1976 and 1977, it made sense for Lucas to arrange for Marvel Comics to do an adaptation of the movie, hire Alan Dean Foster to write the novelization, and similar things. At that time, SW was a nothing. But after May 1977 the SW film became its own best advertisement.

I wish Lucas had simply retired from SW after the first movie was a big hit (or, for those of you who like ESB and/or ROTJ, after the OT was completed).

Wouldn't it be beautiful if SW was simply one (or three) movies and that was it? No Hyperspace, no cups, no figures, no toothbrushes, no coloring books, no novels, no comics, no video games, none of the overwhelming nausea that has been smeared over the name "Star Wars".

On the official Dune website, Frank Herbert's grandson (Byron Merritt) said, "We (the family) don't want Dune to be another Star Wars-style monopoly. We want Dune to set new standards, not hash over old ones."

Isn't it sad that Star Wars has become a byword for a soulless marketing juggernaut?

 

Adam, great post. I love your characterization of the 1977 SW as pure escapist fun.

Wouldn't it have been cool if Lucas, instead of making sequels and stuff to SW, simply made other space fantasy movies, unconnected to SW? Imagine if in 1980 a new space fantasy movie was advertised with the very first part of the trailer reading:

FROM THE MAKER OF STAR WARS

That would have sold a zillion tickets right there.

Each SW film doesn't fit well with any of the others anyway. Instead of trying to half-heartedly tie a series of films together, wouldn't it have been great if Lucas had given us a bunch of films that had nothing in common save that they were all space fantasies?

Heck, maybe after the big success of SW in 1977, the estate of Flash Gordon would have been willing to let Lucas make a Flash Gordon movie. Wouldn't that have been cool?

 

New digs and a bit of a legacy to live after my reign ends.

[Wayne Campbell/C. Montgomery Burns]

Excellent!

[/Wayne Campbell/C. Montgomery Burns]

 

Ah, we just couldn't get the smell of the prior management out of the old digs.

<-- Loves being able to tease an ex-Mod

 

Well, my first reaction was... let's just say it wasn't worded with a PG rating in mind.

But I suppose it's nice to start afresh. I missed the beginning of The Third Sanctuary so... what the hell.

I raise my glass to all of my fellow bashers, and the odd gusher, and wish you all a happy new year.

'Here come the days of the King, may they be blessed'.

Given that the general consensus is that Episode 3: AVBE is predicted to be a suckfest extraordinaire, what future films will be there to eclipse its success and steal any chance it has for the effects oscars in 2006?

 

I think that the marketing by-products (be they artistic or merely merchandise) have greatly contributed to the fun of SW. You just gotta learn to take the good with the bad. And, yes, bad exists.



Let's just go in order of your post.
Well, if there wasn't another movie, there wouldn't be a Hyperspace.
But Hyperspace vitriol puzzles me. I don't mind the concept of Hyperspace. It's just another product... like Star Wars Insider, except in online form. I don't understand why people got so worked up over it. Of course this is the same world thinks they shouldn't have to pay for music, so I dunno.

I am not a Hyperspace member, though, simply 'cause the only thing it offers that I can't get for free is the Webcam... and I would very easily get addicted to the Webcam. I'm better off without it.

Some people say their problem with Hyperspace is the fact that it was marketed as something "loyal fans" or "true fans" or something would all want to buy. Ffffft. What do I care what a guy at a desk at LFL thinks? I think I'm a loyal fan without buying said product, but I'm not insulted by his statement. He's just doing his job.


Cups... hey, I liked my Darth Maul souvenir cup from my movie theater.

Figures: I my action figures. I have three of them. Not the world's greatest collection, I know. But they amuse me. I want a Dooku figure. And a Vader. And maybe an ANH Leia that doesn't look like a man, if that ever happens.

Toothbrushes... okay, whatever. I admit there's some things I don't understand. But I don't think the spinoff products cheapen the movie. Besides, it's kind of nice to think that people like SW so much they'll use the toothbrush. I wear my singular SW t-shirt with pride, for example. No toothbrush though.

Coloring books... without them we would not have the "Is My Jar Jar Coloring Book Canon?" thread! Bite your tongue!

Novels and comic books... well, I like some of 'em. I'm not the biggest EU fan in the world, and I even actively dislike some things the EU is done.
BUT
I would not be an active Star Wars fan (as opposed to just guy who likes the movies) were it not for EU. One thing that attracted me to Star Wars fandom and geekery was the fact that every character had a name and a backstory and a reason to be there... there was a whole big universe to get lost in.
So thanks, EU.
If these had just been movies, with no EU of any sort, I probably wouldn't be at these boards. Of course maybe that's just another reason to dislike it all.
People genuinely enjoy the EU, sometimes as much as, or more than, the movies. That alone is reason for me to say "You're okay by me, EU!" Except Splinter of the Mind's Eye. I will never forgive that book.

Video games... well, I always hated the in-the-sandcrawler level of the SNES ANH game.



I know that some people don't like how movies and stuff get overmarketed these days. And I know we can blame ANH for that. But honestly I don't think it's a big deal. I guess this generation of moviegoers accepts it as more commonplace than the last. When you grow up in a world where every movie has a spinoff, an animated series and action figures, you don't see it as something wrong, because you aren't aware there's an alternative.

About the only thing I dislike about SW and marketing is when LFL took Decipher's license for CCGs away and gave it to Wizards of the Coast. Pure moneymaking bull, killing off a perfectly good game. Grrr. Worst. LFL. Decision. Ever.



As for Dune... well... I am not a Dune fan at all, but I wonder if (for all those nice Byron Merritt quotes) Dune fans are happy with the way that franchise has gone.



Heck, maybe after the big success of SW in 1977, the estate of Flash Gordon would have been willing to let Lucas make a Flash Gordon movie. Wouldn't that have been cool?

Certainly. BUT as long as we could still have the present 1980 Flash Gordon movie, which I love to unreasonable levels. It fills me with such glee. Brian Blessed, Richard O'Brien, Max von Sydow AND wall-to-wall Queen music

 

"Certainly. BUT as long as we could still have the present 1980 Flash Gordon movie, which I love to unreasonable levels."

YES!!!! I love that film!

[Queen] "FlASH! Ahaaaaaaah" [/Queen]

 

I was surprised to see this new thread. I also thought it came out of nowhere. Where were the discussions about the closing of other Sanctuary? (Did I not get the memo?) I thought we could've went on to page 300 easily. If I knew this new thread would come I would've worn my nice suit for the occasion. Alas, you caught me in my ALF T-shirt and shorts...

But it is, after all, just a name change. It is still (and will be) the same Basher Sanctuary. I must warn those such as Adam that we will continue to let loose on many things anti-PT/SE just as we always have. I hope others who disagree with our opinions but still read our posts do not fall ill from the poisoned-tipped arrows we fling on a daily basis.

I am capable, on my really "bashiest" days, of letting rip some of the most potent, foulest PT bashings that are stronger and worse than one hundred TPM Eopie farts combined.

[image=http://www.darkjedi-darthmaul.com/Phantom_Menace4HTML/521-Have_Gas1.jpg]
Five years later, this moment gets no better.

 

Three things (EDIT: Four things) --

Binary, I realized a potential flaw in the idea of Lucas making non-SW space fantasies. I think quite simply he'd run out of ideas -- not for individual plot elements or characters, but for 'universes'. Y'know? He wouldn't be able to use anything Forcelike in his other space fantasy, for a start, without seeming unoriginal. And bam, that'd be one piece of ANH magic he wouldn't be able to recapture in teh bottle.

I suppose if he wanted he could just rip off his own movie, the way Ivan Reitman did in directing "Evolution" wherein he rips off Ghostbusters.



Also, I forgot to tell my favorite ANH story. In 1997 -- whilst watching the shot of Red 3 and 6 doing their combined attack on a Death Star gun or somesuch -- on the BIG SCREEN for the first time -- I decided I wanted to be a filmmaker when I grew up.

Well, I've certainly made progress on the dream since then.

Thanks Star Wars. Thanks model-making d00ds and computer animator types who made that shot possible. Thanks Lucas for making a movie in which such a shot was possible. Most of all, thanks Fox for paying for it.


Finally, another round of praise for 1980 Flash Gordon. Imagine if Lucas HAD gotten his hands on the franchise! We'd have to have a movie that made sense, with little to no pure insanity. And I bet no Queen either!
Although, hmm... maybe if George had directed, BUT Dino de Laurentiis had still produced. They seem like the type who would egg each other on.
I think Flash Gordon 1980 actually succeeds due to directorial incompetence. There is no cohesive vision for the film, so the actors just do what they want, the production designer goes delightfully mad and Queen is present at all times. Sublime.



EDIT:
Yes JW00... many things from TPM have gotten better for me, but the eopie fart remains as low as ever.
But that picture you posted. I never noticed before there was an EXTRA in that scene. I wonder if that guy knows where he is in the movie. If he was all excited to see himself in Star Wars...
Think of him on opening day. He probably took his whole family to see the movie. They can't wait to see him in the biggest movie around. "Oh boy!" he says. "Listen to that flag parade music! How great! Aw man, I'm in a Star Wars movie!... Okay, where am I?... Maybe I'll get to be in a shot with Threepio, how truly iconic, I... hey, there's my flag, there I am... I... waaaait... WHAT?!?!?!"
Eh. At least I'm sure the catering crew fed him well.


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Yippie, a new sanctuary! Hmmm...well, I'll just read Episode 3 spoilers again before I start bashing. Oh, what the heck, let me say it: Episode 3 sounds really bad. From what I've read so far, the only chracter that I'll end up liking is Kenobi. The rest of them seem to have lost their minds/intelligence/sanity in the time between AOTC and Episode 3. Well, except for sly old Palpatine, I really hope a certain scene involving him would work out well

And I just want to reply to one comment:

On the official Dune website, Frank Herbert's grandson (Byron Merritt) said, "We (the family) don't want Dune to be another Star Wars-style monopoly. We want Dune to set new standards, not hash over old ones."

BUT...'Dune' has become like SW. They have EU! And not just any EU, but EU written by Kevin J "I like to ruin many great franchises" Anderson (also known as "Hack-who-must-not-be-named" or to use Dune-terms, he is the "Abomination!" )! Nope, sorry, 'Dune' has suffered the same fate as SW

On the plus side, the 'Children of Dune' mini-series is one of the best stuff on TV last year (and waaaay better than all the prequels combined!). There'll be repeat of it here in January 12, I'm gonna make sure I watch that awesome first part again

 

Ooooh! New Sanctuary!

Lurking: any idea when "Children of Dune" will be available on DVD? I'm a poor soul without cable.