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Batman The Dark Knight Rises (Including Batman Begins & TDK) Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Films and Television' started by Jedi_Master_Conor, Feb 24, 2006.

  1. YoungAngus

    YoungAngus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 7, 2005
    Joker is one of my all-time favorite villans, so I hope an actor is hired who can pull of the role well. Don't get me wrong, I really like Hayden, but I just don't see him as Joker material.

    I'm so glad they are completly starting over with this Saga. Good idea to do it again with a clean slate. How many movies are they going to make? What other villans will there be other than Joker and Two Face?
     
  2. DorkmanScott

    DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I badly hope they avoid the animated series and the more outlandish villains like the plague. The villiany has got to be psychological or it's going to be a slap in the face to the "real" world that Nolan has created.

    Joker is all right, if a little bit wonky (I think his makeup will have to be makeup instead of a chemical effect, but I GUESS I could accept it). Two-Face I buy completely.

    Penguin would be starting to toe the line but you could do it. You'd probably have to do away with the umbrella gimmick (or was that just from Batman Returns anyhow? I'm pretty sure I remember it from the series), much like al Ghul's storyline was written without any of that Lazarus Pit stuff.

    Killer Croc is possible, since he was supposed to be a "freak", but not very exciting.

    Poison Ivy? Pushing it almost over the edge but you could still do her toning things down. Immunity to every poison known to man and hemlock lipstick. No plant powers.

    Mr. Freeze? Forget about it.

    Clayface? No way, would never fit in Nolan's Batman.

    Bane? While I'd love to see him done justice, the steroid tube thing would have to go since it's not instantaneous like that.

    Maybe the Hatter or the Riddler.

    I think Raz, Joker, Two-Face is a good arc.

    M. Scott
     
  3. weezer

    weezer Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    :confused:

    Nolan's Batman wasn't a "real world" Batman anymore then the comic Batman. The same elements are there. It was a "year one" approach but its still a comic movie and any villian from said comic would fit.

    In short I have no idea what you are talking about.
     
  4. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga/JCC Manager star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    I kind of do, weezer, this is how I see what he's saying:

    With Nolan, he showed HOW the "real life" man, Bruce Wayne, became a superhero, why he committed himself to the cause, and what he went through to refine his skills. In other words, Nolan doesn't force his audience to just assume that Batman is a man with amped up abilities, he shows how he trained and obtained those abilities, giving it a somewhat more realistic feel, even though I agree with you to some extent--no Batman is "realistic." :p

    But yes, I'd like to see it go Ra's Al Ghul, Joker, and then a mirage in the third film, with a Catwoman/Two-Face duo, maybe. Although, I had heard this rumored at one time, and I don't know how much water it held, but a Superman/Batman crossover was being discussed where Superman had to come to Gotham to stop Bruce Wayne from a rampant killing spree after his fiance was murdered, and then those two paired up against a common foe, perhaps Sinister, but not sure.

    Anywho, just lookin forward to the sequel, I'll look to the 3rd one once we get thurr.
     
  5. weezer

    weezer Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    A "World's Finest" movie was in various stages of development at one point. Peterson was attached to direct but IIRC it fell through when WBs decided on re-vamping the Batman/Superman franchises instead of killing both off with a team up movie.

    I guess I understood what he was saying I just totally and completely disagreed with it. I'll give you the fact that they largely did away with the mythical elements of a "Lazarus pit" for Ra's and just went with the "idea is greater then the man" twist but really that could change in the end.

    If its one thing that BTAS showed us its that even the "mort-iest" of Batman characters have stories and souls behind those stories. Any character from the Batman mythos would be perfectly at home in "Nolan's Batman".
     
  6. Drac39

    Drac39 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2002
    It wasn`t a World's Finest,it was a Batman vs Superman film.The script was greenlighted and Colin Farel was the favorite to be Bruce Wayne.


    I`m glad it didn`t get made,because Superman would have won and I`m not a huge fan of him.

     
  7. Sn4tcH

    Sn4tcH Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Joker will work, because the Jokers back story as told in "The Killing Joke" is one of the greatest things ever written in a Batman comic. The Batman sequel needs to have the same approach to the Joker as they had with Bruce Wayne in Begins. Show us everything. Show us why and how and what. I want to see the Killing Joke brought to life. It's the only real back story the Jokers ever had.
     
  8. Panther50

    Panther50 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2004
    I think Batman Begins is vastly superior to the previous Batman movies and I'm glad that it was a lot more realistic. That said however I was a little bit disappointed that there were no mentions of the Lazarus pits or Talia. Batman does inhabit a fantasy world so things don't have to be exactly like real life. I see no reason why clayface or poison ivy or killer croc can't appear as they do in the comics as long as the makers are sensible with it. All the villans in the previous movies were grossly over the top and were often painful to watch, I make exception for the Joker as hes ment to be that way. As long as they can avoid that I wouldn't see a problem with using any of Batmans enemies.
     
  9. weezer

    weezer Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    World's Finest is Batman Superman. Eitherway I had always heard it refered to as World's Finest not Batman Vs Superman.
     
  10. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga/JCC Manager star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2003
    As long as it's better than Freddy vs. Jason and Alien vs. Predator, I'm down with it. :p
     
  11. YoungAngus

    YoungAngus Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 7, 2005
    Could you elaborate on his story? I think that would be great if they showed a great background story to the Joker, but it would suck that he would probaly have to die at the end after all that.

    Batman 2 should have The Joker, then 3 should have Two-Face. That would be a great trilogy. If the sequels are anything like Batman Begins, these new Batman movies should rock and make us forget about the previous films.
     
  12. RolandofGilead

    RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2001
    I don't want to forget about the first two films. I actually liked them. But we're revising history again aren't we? ;)
     
  13. Darth_Ignant

    Darth_Ignant Jedi Youngling star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2001
    If I remember correctly, in The Killing Joke, he was just an ordinary guy, a wannabe stand-up comic. But he had a wife with a kid on teh way. To make some cash, he agreed to go on a burglary. It was a gang that always used a new guy as "The Red Hood" or somesuch. Anyway, he fell into chemicals. And the wife died somehow, I think...I don't think Batman was involved...

    It's been a while.
     
  14. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    I ordered The Killing Joke on eBay recently, so I will be able to offer a summary. Not that the Joker history in TKJ is strictly canon in the comics; I believe a lot of it is stuff the Joker is remembering, and that he suggests he may not be correct. I also have a vague idea that Batman is somehow involved in the transition from Red Hood to Joker, but I may be all wrong on that.

    After having read The Long Halloween, I'm absolutely convinced that the Two-Face would be amazing for the movie. But I'm also convinced that it has to happen at the end of a movie. It could be the setup for a sequel, but it doesn't even have to be; it would be okay just to have Two-Face disappear (capturing him would be a bit much for one movie as I don't think the attack can happen more than about 30 minutes from the end). I just really love the way The Long Halloween handles this, with his dogged involvement in the case all along only to pay for it in the end. His mental transformation makes total sense in light of the setup. I think it's very possible we could see something like this, too, as the creators of Batman Begins have plainly read The Long Halloween; the opening chapter is even included with the Deluxe Edition DVD.

    It's been suggested that Dent's disfigurement might be related to the Joker's trial. I can totally see this, especially if Dent can be involved in the investigation all along with Batman and Gordon. It seems just the Joker's cp of tea, when finally seemingly bested by Batman, to destroy the body and mind of his best friend. An excellent joke.

    I'm just sorry the Halle Berry movie has pretty much shot our chances of seeing Catwoman. I really admire Jeph Loeb's depiction of the relationship between Catwoman and Batman, as well as Selina and Bruce, in The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, and Hush. There's a lot there. She shouldn't be a main plot, but a figure involved and interfering in strange ways, maybe finally reaching some level of trust and understanding with Batman -- or not. It would also add richness and complexity to the Batman character (as opposed to Bruce Wayne), I think. But I figure the odds are almost zero, which is a real shame.

    If we're looking at a trilogy, as most people tend to think, then, I'd make #2 about the Joker and end with the creation of Two-Face. #3 would be most superficially about another villain, with Two-Face ultimately being revealed to be playing an important background role and coming out to confront Batman in the end. [Edit: Inspired by Dark Victory, perhaps part of what's going on in the third film involes Two-Face hunting down and trying various people who he believes to be associated with what happened to him. I can see a climax in which he captures and tries Gordon, which I believe has happened in some comic although I have not read it.] Catwoman/Selina would be a sort of subplot over both movies, sometimes helping, sometimes hindering Batman as they are drawn to each other. Somehow tying her origin into the events of the first film would not be a bad idea, and I would definitely go with the Year One idea of having her be an ex-prostitute inspired by seeing Batman in action to go do something.

    -Paul
     
  15. weezer

    weezer Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke]Here is Wiki's description of The Killing Joke[/link]. Its all about one bad day.

    Long Halloween and Dark Victory would be excellent paths to explore.
     
  16. Jedi_Master_Conor

    Jedi_Master_Conor Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 24, 2005
    i couldn't see them bringing in Catwoman for this new set of batman movies. i don't think she'd fit in
     
  17. DARTH_GOLLUMSMEAGOL

    DARTH_GOLLUMSMEAGOL Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2003
    well early on it was said (I don't remember the sorce) that Katie was going to be replaced by a "strong-willed woman".......
     
  18. Jedi_Master_Conor

    Jedi_Master_Conor Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 24, 2005
    well i have faith in Christopher Nolan since he did a good job with Begins. so I guess he could pull it off right if they decided to have catwoman in. however, i'd rather just focus on the other characters like Dent/Two-Face and Joker
     
  19. Walken

    Walken Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2004
    Talia Al-Ghul.
     
  20. Darth_Ignant

    Darth_Ignant Jedi Youngling star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2001
    I was going to say Talia, too. The Cat Woman movie is too recent for them to use her, methinks.
     
  21. Jedi_Master_Conor

    Jedi_Master_Conor Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 24, 2005
    i completely forgot about her. i forgot but how does she figure into the batman story?
     
  22. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    Out of curiosity, have you read any of the books written by Jeph Loeb (I'm thinking particularly The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, and Hush)? I'm just curious because I think they tend to show a Catwoman who could really fit in fairly well to the kind of world Begins has set up, and if you've read them and disagree, I would be interested in further discussion there.

    I like the idea of Catwoman better than Talia because Catwoman is supposed to be a recurring feature, and having her in a smaller role, never at the center of things but there all along and with some mystery about her, as well as the developing Batman/Catwoman and Bruce/Selina relationships, as a subplot. Using Talia would make R'as too big a fixture of the series, I believe. I see his story as being completely contained and resolved within the first movie. Bringing Talia into things would be stretching it out too far for me. Although I could probably be persuaded to see it otherwise, especially if someone recommended a TPB with a really good Talia story; I've never actually read her, aside from her brief appearance in Hush, and only know about her through other sources.

    I also have to admit long-standing prejudice. I do think that the Catwoman story would be a great addition and allow superb exploration of the Batman character based on what I've read recently, but I've been incredibly fond ever since Returns with Michelle Pfeifer. So yeah.

    Sadly, I think you're probably right. Which is really annoying, because as I understand it (I didn't see it), the movie had next-to-nothing to do with the actual Catwoman story, besides being bad. If they could just have called it something else, we might have gotten to hang on to this plot for someplace where it could serve a really good purpose.

    -Paul
     
  23. weezer

    weezer Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    I agree that catwoman is a large part of the Batman mythos and would fit quite well into "nolan's" Batman. After all she was prominently featured in Millar's year one and as mentioned above Loeb and Sale's year one-esq Long Halloween and Dark Victory.

    I don't know how I'd feel about Talia. I think she could work in the movies but not without Ra's and that opens ups a whole new can of worms. If you are looking for GN's with her there are only really a handful out there. Daughter of the Demon is general considered one of the "great" Batman stories from the Denny O'Neil days. Birth of the Demon gives some of her background but mostly focuses on Ra's. Then there is the out of continuity Son of the Demon which looks at Talia's and Bat's son.
     
  24. Jedi_Master_Conor

    Jedi_Master_Conor Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 24, 2005
    one thing i'd like in the sequels is a more defining music theme. the music was good in the begins but nothing really stuck out to me like the elfman theme from the tim burton movie
     
  25. stinrab

    stinrab Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    They should just go ahead and cast Tom Cruise as the Joker already. No acting required.