PT Battle Droid Rights

How about this LIVING things that can reason and comprehend to the levels of humans or higher.

 

How about this LIVING things that can reason and comprehend to the levels of humans or higher.
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I will never be mean to my laptop again...

 

Why only living things?

 

Our heroes probably destroyed them knowing their behaviour from years of fighting them anticipating they'd alert others only to return in larger quantities to retake the bridge.

 

Not in general. They aren't alive, period.

They don't have emotions. They were programmed to emulate emotions (probably to better interact with living beings).

 

But our emotions are just nuerons firing in certain centers of the brain. Surely their experiances would make them eventually exhibit 'real' emotions (i.e. I remember being blown apart last time by one of them and I don't want that to happen again).

BTW I agvree with you. I'm just trying to weed put any logical gaps.

 

You know - in the Clone Wars - General Grievous was accused of simply 'leading an army of no spirit - no loyalty ... JUST PROGRAMMING! What has he to show for all his Power - what has he to gain?' Obi-Wan Kenobi cynically commented - I always wondered then about that - given isn't that slightly ironic? I mean the Jedi want Peace and well no attachments and love and emotions - and well Battle Droids - they're practically 'emotionless' putting aside personality quirks if you don't mind-wipe them - they're just practically programmed to be robots ...

Also - then again Thiazzi - true - whilst at times also Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Clone Wars remarked to Anakin one time in the Blue Shadow Virus episodes 'you just cut down 17 defenseless droids...' but you're meaning the ROGER! ROGER! B1 Battle Droids right? They may be an exception and perhaps non-combatants BUT what about the Droideka's or B2 Super Battle Droids or the IG-100 Magnaguards? Or the Tri-Fighter Droids? I mean its not like a Jedi or a Clone Trooper is gonna suggest 'say let's stop fighting and shake hands' and given the Droideka's, B2 Super Battle Droids or IG-100 Magnaguards are not gonna just panic and run like Roger Roger! B1 Battle Droids - and besides consider the fact these Battle Droids are far more merciless and violent and I've yet to see a Droideka go 'PLEASE DON'T KILL ME!' or an IG-100 Magnaguard do the same ...

 

To me, the question of whether they have rights or not would depend on the level of AI. In the case of battle droids, they don't have much in the way of personality or the ability to think freely, so I cant make a substantial arguments for them having rights. However in the case of droids such as Artoo and Threepio, as well as several droids in the now Legends EU, I'd say they have a more advanced AI and therefore should be entitled to some form of droid rights, especially when you consider that droids can be fitted with pain receptors, as evidenced in Return of the Jedi.

 

here are some examples of a waste of droigs

 

Battle droids are programmed for one purpose and one purpose only: to kill. The only way to reform them would be to reprogram them, which the Republic does indeed do on at least one occasion. Unfortunately, that's not really a viable option in the heat of battle.

Again, I have to point out that nowhere is it ever established in any of the films that droids develop personalities "through time and experience." As far as we are shown, droids are programmed with certain personalities and retain those personalities from the moment they are activated to the moment they are de-activated. C-3PO goes through a mind wipe at the end of Episode III and shows up again in Episode IV with an identical personality. It's just the way he is. And when he gets his head swapped onto a battle droid body, he immediately takes on the personality qualities of a battle droid. Because that's just the way battle droids are.

It's a central theme of the films. What sets machines apart is that they are programmed a certain way and can never deviate from that program of their own free will. Machines can be either compassionate or lacking compassion, but either way they are not morally responsible agents, because they have no choice. Humans, on the other hand, do have freedom of choice and are thus morally responsible for their own actions--as well as for the actions of the machines they create.

 

It’s kind of hard to care about battle droids when they’re currently trying to kill you. They’re programmed to kill whoever the operators want dead. If Anakin created and programmed an assassin droid to shoot Gunray in the face, then that’s exactly what it’s going to do no matter how much Nute cried, begged, or showed photos of his (hypothetical) wife and kids.

 

I believe that I have brought up these examples before but take C3PO in ANH.
There he says;

And yet in RotJ he does tell stories to the Ewoks and does it quite well.
If we stick to the films, how could he do that? We aren't shown him being programmed to tell stories and why would Luke do that?

So that is an example of growth and change in a droid.

Or take R2, in ANH he is quite good at manipulating Luke into removing the restraining bolt.
Was he programmed with that knowledge? Why?
R2 is a mech droid, why would he be programmed for deception?
And he is able to lie as is C3PO, who lies both to Luke and later to the troopers on the DS.

Why are restraining bolts even needed?
If droids can't act outside their programming and can't make their own choices, why even have such things?
If droids always do as they are told and can never run away, such bolts would be unneeded.
But they are so apparently droids can run away.

Take the clones, in the films they are made to be totally obedient and they don't need any restraining bolt to stop them from running away.

Other examples, why did R2 start to zap the ewok when he was untied?
He had no orders to do that and I doubt he had been programmed to do that so why?
It mostly seemed like R2 was getting a bit of revenge on the ewok for being tied up.

Why does C3PO care for R2? He express worry when R2 is leaving for the DS attack and wants him to come back so that his, C3PO's, life would not be boring.
And when a busted R2 comes back, C3PO express concern and offers some of his own parts if that could save R2.
Why?
Was he programmed to do that?
R2 and C3PO bicker a lot during the film but it is clear that C3PO does care on some level.
He even makes the suggestion to Luke when the other R-unit broke down.

In short, I think droids in SW do show more potential for growth and independent thought than you give them credit for.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

No, it's not. It' an example of C-3PO being insecure in his own abilities. When exactly did we see him grow as a storyteller in the films? Never. We see him tell a story exactly once, and he's good at it.

Why wouldn't he be programmed for deception? Sometimes deception is necessary to carry out a directive from a master. Which is exactly what Artoo is doing in this instance.

Artoo happens to have been put together extremely well, which is why he functions so much more effectively than other droids of his type. But it's just the way he is.

Because droids are programmed to not want to be abused. It's just the way Lucas established things in order to make the droids sympathetic and for the plot to work. Indeed, why wouldn't droids simply be programmed with an internal mechanism simulating the functions of a restraining bolt? It doesn't make sense either way. There's no deeper logic behind it. It's not a good peg on which to hang an argument. You might as well ask why Artoo can't speak English. It doesn't make sense, but it also doesn't imply anything other than that Lucas wanted to do it that way.

 

Yes it is, we have a character say he is not good at something and later he is able to do that thing. Showing that he has grown.
And it is not consistent with C3PO to downplay or doubt his own abilities. How often does he tell people how many forms of communication he is fluent in?
When talking to Owen, C3PO does a good job of selling himself.
Why would he suddenly doubt what he can do?
And what sense does it make to program a droid to be able to do something and at the same time program them to doubt themselves?
Would it make sense to program R2 to be able to repair things and then program him with doubt to the point where he can not make any repairs?

Again what sense does it make to program an astromech droid with this level of deception skills?
It would not at all be called for in R2's normal function and duties.

You argument is basically that R2, for no reason, was programmed very differently to all other droids of his type and has tons of other programming added to him.
This argument makes little sense. R2 is different just cause, no reason, no logic behind it, he just is.

It makes far better sense that R2 has been able to observe "human" behavior for quite a long while and been able to learn things outside his programming.
That is why he able to do what he does, that is why C3PO can go from not being good at telling stories to being good at it. He has learned.

Which makes more sense?
1) That the people that make droids in SW for no reason adds a whole lot of programming to droids that is not needed and in some cases makes the droid less good a what they are meant to do.
Making battle droids scared, making droids feel pain, making droids doubt themselves, not programming the droids to not run away even thought they can easily do that.
2) Or, the droids have an actual AI that is able to learn and grow. But this can lead to droids running away and so restraining bolts are needed.
And in the EU, which might not be canon anymore, droids are routinely memory wiped in order to prevent them from getting new ideas or independent notions.

The latter makes more sense to me and fits the films. Droids can learn new things and grow beyond their programming but people on the whole, with a few exceptions, look down on droids and don't want them to be too smart or too independent so their minds are wiped from time to time and they have "slave collars" at times.
Why not program the droids to always be docile and never run away?
Well a possibility is that making a much more limited droid brain makes the droid far less effective.
It reduces the number of tasks they can do and they need way more in terms of specific instructions.
So the trade off to having smarter droids is restraining bolts and doing memory wipes.

What Lucas intended is not always the same as what eventually wound up on the screen.
His ideas grew and became more than what he might have initially thought.
Lucas intended for C3PO to sound like a used car salesman but changed his mind.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor