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Amph Black Panther (Wakanda Forever)

Discussion in 'Community' started by Sith_Sensei__Prime, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Nay-Sayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    What we're saying, and I'm sure it's a pretty radical concept, is how about waiting for the movie to actually come out before passing judgment?
     
  2. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    dp4m: Yes, black people. Shut up and be happy you get any movie, regardless of what it says or means. You're never more than a token in a white society and you should be thrilled at the privilege.

    Merkurian: I think you should temper that a bit. First off, this is a teaser trailer. They released it because they wanted people to react. I don't recall seeing you chide any of those who expressed enthusiasm about the cool action scenes to "wait until it comes out" before deciding if the action was really fun or exciting. Similarly, they put in the El Dorado lines because they thought it would have some sort of resonance. I think it's fair to point out how it doesn't.

    More to the point, though, it's not a criticism I volunteered. It's not something I would have ever said unbidden. I'm open to the film being good and I'm trying to wait on things. But a poster commented on that particular point about El Dorado. I felt compelled to explain how that actually made me quite uncomfortable/unhappy, relative to everything else in the trailer.
     
  3. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015
    If we are going to call the Black Panthers a "terrorist political party"... that certainly doesn't bode well for the southern democrats (dixiecrats) who later became republicans who allowed, participated in and end encouraged rampant lynching, beating, rape, execution and false imprisonment (among other things) throughout the southeastern united states for 100+ years after the civil war ended.

    The police routinely attacked, beat and terrorized people engaged in peaceful marches and protests to the point where the national guard had to be deployed.

    http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lbj-pledges-federal-troops-to-alabama-civil-rights-march
     
  4. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    Answering more temperately than before, I'm not having this narrative at all. No one owes this movie anything. Yes, it's nice that there's a film like this with a predominantly African cast. But the reality is that we had a highly successful superhero movie with a predominantly black cast in the 1990s. We're just talking about the second one almost twenty years later. The issue here is not that they need to prove the commercial viability of movies with non-white actors.

    These films aren't made because Hollywood doesn't want to make them. That was true before this movie, and it will in all likelihood be true long afterwards. It is cynical in the extreme and frankly disgusting to pretend that people who criticize this film are somehow jeopardizing the prospects for non-whites to have any place in the future. If you really care about these issues at all, lay blame at the feet of those who deserve it.
     
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  5. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 9 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 21, 2002
    Black Panther, the modern incarnation at least, is a black power fantasy (what if a small region of Africa had managed to escape all colonialism and eventually became the most advanced nation in the world?), so we shouldn't expect anything other than that, as Wocky is saying. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but it is what it is. Escapism, no matter how specifically targeted it is, will never lead to social change.
     
  6. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    True, but Wocky's schtick is old and tired and I don't care what he thinks since he's getting close to a term I can't post here on the forums. It's the reason people complain about Friends, Seinfeld, anything popular from the 90s - now. Representation matters. Simply being seen matters to some people.

    The complaints here aren't really any different than I saw about why people care why "there are no women toys/merch from The Avengers / Star Wars / etc." or "why does it matter there's not a female-led superhero movie." I bet Wocky probably hates Empire too, if I were guessing, despite it being (for all intents and purposes) as groundbreaking as The Cosby Show.

    I don't think anyone's arguing social change from this, other than perhaps changing the narrative as "Tyler Perry can only make black people movies," but simply being seen in a modern-tentpole blockbuster is important to people.
     
  7. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 9 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Yeah, saying that representation is worthless is silly, but it's not a zero-sum game.

    I'm saying that, by itself, on-screen representation is useless. You need to qualify it. It has to be good, and it has to resonate, and for now we don't know how this movie is going to be. Being cautious is my preferred stance, especially when it's a clearly calculated effort: "we'll make twelve WASP movies and then one starring a woman and one starring a black dude and that way we cover the whole market." My original major was marketing, after all, and I'm very familiar with market segmentation talk. Marketers don't give a flying **** about equality or civil rights :p

    So yes, it's really nice, as Wocky said, but not really that groundbreaking per se. We'll see how it goes.
     
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  8. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    JTS: A little more complicated still. This isn't just a black power fantasy. It's a white person's idea of a black power fantasy. There are more than a few reasons that's exasperating.

    I don't contest this. What I am pushing back on is your idea that this film is going to be some huge sea change. Representation is something apart from tokenism. Minority led tentpole films are rare only because the executives who green light such films don't seem to particularly like stories about minorities. It has nothing to do with their underlying commercial viability, and your implication that this film represents something brave or laudable from Hollywood is disgusting.
     
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  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I think the newest Ghostbusters is an example of how representation for its own sake is not good enough. I get what Wocky is saying. Although I am all about a power fantasy with a small African nation overcoming colonialism and white supremacy, and I do think this film looks good.
     
  10. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001

    So, just to be clear -- you don't trust Ryan Coogler (and Joe Robert Cole) to steward that? As well as possibly basing off of stories written by Ta-Nehisi Coates (who's writing the current run)?
     
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  11. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    I'd love to have an enjoyable film with a black superhero. I would have enjoyed it even more as a child. But I can only judge by what I saw in that trailer. With all those things in mind, "El Dorado" does not encourage me at all, no.
     
  12. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 9 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 21, 2002
    If you mean the character itself I can't agree with that, as this is the man that redefined Black Panther and gave it the power fantasy angle (before him it was little more than token black Batman):

    [​IMG]

    If you mean the movie... yeah, 100% with you.
     
  13. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    I just want the superhero era to be over.
     
  14. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    I think this is the key point here. Or, more broadly, corporations don't give a flying **** about equality or civil rights. It just seems so transparently cynical and an exercise in box-ticking, though I suppose I think everything about the MCU is cynical.
     
  15. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red 3X Hangman Winner star 6 VIP - Game Winner

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    Apr 25, 2004
    So from what we've seen of this character so far in Civil War, is there really reason to be worried that this will amount to tokenism? I mean, we had that bit where he says "I don't want to find inner peace, I want revenge" but then later he comes to the realization that revenge isn't worth it after all. Seems like they've done a decent job of showing that he's got flaws, he's human, and not just going down the "black man is morally superior to white man" route.
     
  16. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 19, 2015
    Even a terrible movie like Thor paid at least some token respect to Norse mythology. Black Panther's backstory/origin seems to be an outright ode to western ignorance of African cultures, both relying on that ignorance to offer up something western audience will accept as seeming vaguely African in origin and informing itself from that very same level of ignorance, what Ramza might call an ouroboros of self-referential stupidity. It's not for me to say, but I won't be surprised if others find this whole endeavor to be insulting and patronizing, unless of course the Disney marketing team does what DC did with Wonder Woman and have its PR managers fan out through the entertainment industry to make sure that every media outlet in the known universe is pitched with a story touting its significance as a symbol of equality and empowerment.
     
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  17. grd4

    grd4 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 11, 2013
    JediJadeSkywalker: I'd recommend you watch the recent PBS documentary, The Black Panthers: Vanguard of the Revolution. It will dispel the spurious assertion that the Panthers were in any way "terrorists."
     
  18. Diggy

    Diggy Force Ghost star 8

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    Feb 27, 2013
    WW was the first female directed film to top $100 million opening weekend domestic.

    Black Panther will probably be the highest grossing weekend for a black director in history.

    Neither will bring about massive change, but they are small steps in the right direction, because they show it can be done. I don't think it's a bad thing, despite the massive amounts of cynicism from every possible angle. My kids are so white they'd make Hitler blush, but we'll go see this, and I'm glad they get an opportunity, and as a bonus, they'll see it without all the baggage you bastards are giving me.
     
  19. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
  20. Diggy

    Diggy Force Ghost star 8

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    Feb 27, 2013
    Ha, I suppose I should pay more attention to those films!
     
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  21. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 19, 2015
    I thought Marvel/Netflix did a commendable job with Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, but "Black Panther" seems like the kind of unfortunate miscalculation that you'd never make, Diggy , like naming one of your kids "Heinrich."*

    *joke shamelessly lifted from Don Delillo
     
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  22. Diggy

    Diggy Force Ghost star 8

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    Feb 27, 2013
    $98 million domestic seems beatable. Not getting near that international, though.
     
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  23. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    I guess it's logical that, on a film forum, people delude themselves into thinking that films are important.

    And on an action movie forum people delude themselves into thinking action movies are important.
     
  24. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001

    Not unheard of, but it's being released in February in the Deadpool slot -- and the normal February opening isn't anywhere close to Deadpool, plus the US is horribly racist. I'm just playing the odds. I'd love for it to crack $100 million opening weekend.
     
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  25. Diggy

    Diggy Force Ghost star 8

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    Feb 27, 2013
    It will all be in the marketing, and they are more than capable.

    Now, let's see if this post is worth the thirty minutes it will take to actually post.

    Edit: Woohoo!
     
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  26. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Well, "important" is a subjective and arbitrary term and really nothing is important and reality is an illusion and we're all just a bunch of particles randomly interacting with one another until the force driving the expansion of the universe ultimately tears everything apart...

    ..Where was I going with this? Oh right, if your contention is that film, as an art from, does not and cannot have a big influence on human society, you're wrong and it's quite easy to demonstrate it. I'll use Birth of a Nation as an example-- one of the first feature films and the first "blockbuster" ever. It was single-handedly responsible for the rebirth of the KKK. D.W. Griffith made it so that the Klan was not simply a Reconstruction-era terrorist organization; his film made it into a modern terrorist organization that dwarfed its first incarnation and had tens of millions of members at its peak. So, yes, film is "important."

    That is not to say that the safe, made-in-a-boardroom "the algorithms say the time is right for a black guy now!" MCU could ever have that level of influence, however. It's just not correct to use it to generalize film as a whole.
     
  27. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

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    Apr 17, 2006
    ITT people who aren't fun at parties.
     
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  28. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 19, 2000
    "People delude themselves into thinking films are important" is not the same as "no important film has ever been made". The films discussed on this forum are generally not important in the way this movie has just been discussed, as a compass for societal change.
     
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  29. soitscometothis

    soitscometothis Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 11, 2003
    Heroes are important and always have been, even ones created by money-grabbing corporate entities. I think the movie will make a lot of kids feel happy and empowered, especially children of colour who have had to make do with heroes in the MU who have, up till now, been treated as second rate; the fact that the parents of these kids will have to shell out hard-earned for overpriced Black Panther action figures is neither here nor there. Yes, it might not be the altruistic game-changer that Marvel's PR department will try to sell it as, but it's a positive thing all the same, imo.