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Amph Black Panther (Wakanda Forever)

Discussion in 'Community' started by Sith_Sensei__Prime, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Yeah, the humor is generally bad, it shows up in the worst places and undercuts what little passes for character development in these movies.

    Marvel humor is the awkward guy who just can't help but make really terrible jokes, that aren't funny in any way, at the most inappropriate times. It's like a tic, and when its possessed by a real person, I feel bad for them, because it's obvious that they are awkward and really struggling to just exist as a human being. DON'T come at me with "that's the point, these characters are traumatized" nonsense, because that's not it at all.

    I feel bad for whoever has to write this crap. It's clear that they have no choice but to follow the formula, so every time they write something dramatic and/or emotional, something that might even feel real or personal to them...they have to follow up with some stupid joke. I bet they die inside every time.
     
  2. DarthIntegral

    DarthIntegral JCC Baseball Draft/SWC Draft Commish star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2005
    I don't think RDJ is the only one who can pull off the right comedic timing. I think Chris Pratt also does it just fine. It's just that Marvel seems to expect all their actors and actresses to be able to channel RDJ and Pratt, and that's asking too much.

    The issue I have with the humor is there's just too much of it and it's oddly placed. When it's natural, it enhances the film (like Bucky and Falcon in the car in Winter Soldier, or Loki as Cap in Thor: The Dark World), but when it's forced and derails ... it really negatively impacts my viewing experience.
     
  3. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    I'll read the rest of your post later, but are you saying I'm a Marvel Super Hero? Because that would be squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

    Edit: nm
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  4. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Way to play to your strengths, Digster. =D=
     
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  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I do agree the film was dragged down by formulaic elements, but before I get there I want to address the weaknesses it had in its own right.

    Forest Whittaker's death was probably the most bizarre of all. He was killed during a duel that he wasn't even a part of. Does that grant someone the right to randomly murder senior officials? No one questioned the legality of this move at all? This is even stranger when people described T'Challa's defeat as murder but not the literal killing of someone that had no part in the proceedings. The other thing that was really discordant was the blatant disregard for national customs. For instance, when T'Challa reappears to resume the duel, Eric just shrugs it off and says "We're done with that bull [crap]" even though that is, again, a sacred ritual for generations and the way he gained power. No one would care that he did that? Similarly, I know we were supposed to feel some horror when he burned the herb garden. But it seemed overdone. From the prologue, that was literally the seminal moment of Wakandan society. They have used it for centuries, if not millennia. It would be like someone elected President who immediately after inauguration lit the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence aflame. Colonial powers sparked rebellions doing things like this (eg the Ashanti started a massive uprising against the British for merely threatening to have their sacred objects, let alone destroy them). Yet here, it's just met with some implied discomfort.

    I know they tried to justify it by saying he was intentionally destabilizing the country. But. . .why? If he wants a global empire, they kind of need the center to be logistically functional. If he just wants to demolish Wakanda, he didn't need a global empire. Similarly, did it matter that the weapons shipments made it out if T'Challa could just reverse the orders to the War Dogs after the fact? How did Eric know that W'Kabe would respond so strongly to seeing that he'd killed Klaw, and how much did that ultimately matter to his plan? How come no one pointed out that this was the same guy who had rescued Klaw to begin with? Why give the heart-shaped herb to M'baku if he would have to be stripped of its power to challenge Eric anyway?

    But stepping back from this a bit, the Marvel formula really did encroach on things. The film was at its best exploring some of those tensions of normal humans that the MCU lacks. For instance, the head of the royal guard confronting W'Kabe, contextualizing their relationship and the relative importance of the nation. But instead of exploring those tensions, we got a big stupid fight scene for thirty minutes prior. The challenge of the worse combatant being the better ruler was an interesting dilemma, especially in a context that already stressed the Wakandan system of governance. Again, though, rather than trying to explore how to resolve this, or perhaps even offer some sort of non-violent side-step, we just had an overly long karate fight. Over and over, elements that might have humanized the film further were ignored in favor of things that could make it louder and stupider. In that way, there was some disappointment.
     
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  6. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    It could be worse. It could be Pacific Rim: Uprising.
     
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  7. Darth_Invidious

    Darth_Invidious Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 1999
    Alright, valid comments all regarding the humor. Again, I usually don't do repeat viewings of these films and perhaps the reason may simply be that I subconsciously know they are deeply flawed and terrible films, intentionally aimed at a much, much younger audience because, well, Disney. Thus, the abundance of Saturday-morning-cartoon quality poorly written humor?

    I've always been a Marvel Zombie as far as I recall, and I always relished the idea of seeing movies made out of these characters just like they did with Batman or Superman when I was growing up so, yeah, kinda biased here. But I do acknowledge that there's a formula in place that has repeated itself in these films time and time again to a tiresome degree, although thankfully more subdued in the Captain America sequels and in Black Panther. I do fear though that the seriousness of the situation in IW might be completely undone in just one scene with a poorly placed joke.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
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  8. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    You do realize that this was the catalyst for the Dora Milaje turning on him, right?
     
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I do.

    But that’s fundamentally less interesting than a scenario where, for instance, everyone refuses to fight for him even though they also aren’t prepared to turn against him.

    Maybe we’re too deep in the age of Trump or that would have been too on-the-nose, but I feel like there are much more interesting things to explore in the paradox of a leader radically undermining their own rationale for power than just a laser beam karate fight.
     
  10. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Laser Beam Karate Fight is actually the name of the first MCU Phase 4 film, but I suspect you know that, @Jabba-wocky
     
  11. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    An inanimate CGI-rendered laser beam would have the same depth of character as 90% of MCU characters in that it Looked Cool. So long as they could provide some snappy dialogue and terrible jokes, I am sure it would be just as popular.
     
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  12. Darth_Invidious

    Darth_Invidious Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 21, 1999
    I take it back: Bring on more bad humor, Marvel. If it keeps faulty AIs from going rampant, I'll sleep better at night.
     
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  13. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    [​IMG]




    @Jabba-wocky thanks for providing an earnest and in-dept opinion of the film. It far more easier to respect and engage movie opinions when they're more than "It's a Marvel movie therefore it sucks" or the converse of that statement. Your perspective of the film has some similarities with certain critics that found the social and political overtones of the film to be very questionable and/or illogical. Additionally, your thoughts about the long term goals of the villain and the Wakandian rituals and traditions also fall into similar negative critiques about the film as well. I don't agree with them, but I appreciate the different interpretation of the elements and themes of the film.
     
  14. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
  15. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2012
    U.S. digital-May 8th, Blu Ray - May 15th. It is still playing a town away from us, but rental for me.

     
  16. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    So there's probably one more piece to this.

    I have to recall the first time I read the Epic of Sundiata. I was very much enjoying the whole tale, and plenty of moments stick with me even now--for instance, Soumaoro catching an arrow fired at him before teleporting away. Just then, though, what struck me was that I had no idea what people were wearing. The descriptions were pretty plain in the text. All the detail you would want from a story like this. But in my mind's eye, I couldn't conjure up anything at all. It was a sort of sobering moment. Both I and my family had invested considerable effort into making sure I was especially familiar with African-American history and several of the major African empires. But for all the supplementary reading, lectures, museums and trips, I still couldn't figure out what the ancient warriors of Mali were supposed to be wearing. It was a sort of object lesson about the way culture can limit one's imagination of blackness.

    It crops up every once in a while. For instance, some years later when a white classmate commented that as she read as selection of the same story for an assignment she had to remind herself "that the characters weren't white" though they were doing very exciting things in the narrative. Being honest with myself, I have to say that this film is another sort of iteration of that question. In the run-up to the film, I complained pretty bitterly about some elements. Why was the myth of reference the distinctly Latin American city of gold? I feel that was true, as was the weirdly discordant reference to "Hanuman"--what, because there was no simian god or mythos native to Africa they could reference? All non-whites are the same, even the Hindu's explicitly color-struck caste system?--among other things. But I was wrong about it being for lack of trying. They clearly did, in the visual homages to the Dogon and Masaai and the aural nods to the Xhosa. These were serious efforts to root the story in something authentic to Africa, its history, and its diaspora.

    But then there were these moments referenced above, as dumb and inexplicable as my own struggles to clothe Sundiata in my mind's eye. This film was enjoyable for me, if slightly uneven at point, dragged down by the limits imposed by the MCU, but perhaps also the challenge of what he was attempting. In that sense, it reminds me instead of Birth of A Nation. That was a film I pretty immensely enjoyed, and even now think that in it's own way was much more innovative and ground-breaking than Black Panther. After all, it reflected modern scholarship about the partial retention of African custom by slaves, demonstrated their agency in firearm usage and passive resistance strategies, offered an onscreen illustration of things like the ring shout, and gave a more nuanced examination of the complex role of religion in the institution of slavery in any major film I've seen (and even several more minor, art house ones). Discussing it with a friend, though, they correctly noted many of the lame, recycled tropes in the narrative and other structural problems with the film. At the end of discussion, I concluded that it was a "black person's slavery film." So maybe that's where we end up with Black Panther: a black person's MCU film. It certainly wasn't perfect. But Coogler was trying, and he got somewhat further than my young self did. I have to hope that the film pushed the limits of the black imagination just a bit further. Enough so that the next generation might get that much closer to a film that is truly excellent.
     
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  17. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    @Rogue1-and-a-half, have you seen it yet? Post a review of it if you have instead of those Thomas Edison 5 second shorts of people eating poop or whatever.
     
  18. Rogue1-and-a-half

    Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2000
    Yeah, I saw it. Loved it. I only have forty more of those Edison reviews to do, so I'll get a full review up soon.
     
  19. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    @Jabba-wocky , I posted (a few pages back) the below some tweets regarding the costume design of Black Panther and why it feels so authentic.

    I do feel Coogler and the rest of the creative team understood the cultural importance and significance of the film and took it to heart. I mean, there was something that Marc Bernardin said on the "Fatman on Batman" YouTube channel where he described that most cultures in the U.S. have a history or a lineage to could trace their roots to, whether it be a small village in Italy or perhaps a hut in Asian, it's a place that a current generation to visit. Whereas many Black people in the U.S., this is not possible because of slavery. Many African Americans have a piece of their history and heritage erased and so Wakanda offers that imaginative place of heritage. That's one of the many elements that makes this film so powerful and resonates with its viewers, it gives everyone a chance to feel connected to an idea of roots.


    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/black-panther.50045690/page-13#post-54905254
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  20. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Somebody should write a book about African-Americans and their roots. But what should the title be?
     
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  21. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    I was wondering if someone would pick up on that. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  22. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    There should also be a sequel about "the next generations" of people after Roots... maybe Roots 2: Electric Boogaloo?
     
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  23. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Finally got to see this , I rather enjoyed it , the Wakanda stuff looked great , the bloke playing Black Panther was very good , and the story for the most part was involving , even the 2 baddies were well played .
    3rd act was a bit of a , well , 3rd act in an action movie .

    One note tho - so at the end he gave a speech about barriers and borders being bad , but is he saying that Wakanda's borders will be coming down ?
     
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  24. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    His speech was about Wakanda not cutting itself off to the rest of the world and reaching out with their resources/technology to help the rest of the world.
     
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  25. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    Really? I thought it was about Wakanda getting a Starbuck's cafe and hosting the Olympics.