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Amph Black Panther

Discussion in 'Community' started by Sith_Sensei__Prime, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Yes but it was a fundamentally dumb goal. Take a step back. It was a government initiative for superheroes. Even if he "succeeded":

    1. The government could just get different superheroes to be the Avengers. Even the MCU itself doesn't hold to the philosophy that some jerk in a robot suit and someone with extremely mild superhero powers would be irreplaceable.

    2. They all understand duty. Several are literally soldiers. If actually needed, they might well fight alongside one another even begrudgingly.

    3. People have the capacity for change and forgiveness. Which again, you know, actually happened. In about 3 films. So what was even the point?

    It was better than most Marvel villain plots, but not very clever.
     
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    No I understand; we're talking about this because I saw it expecting it to be a watershed and finding it instead, very similar to the rest of the MCU.
     
  3. DarthIntegral

    DarthIntegral Baseball Draft Commish star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Zemo's motivation is fine. It's the beyond-stupid and asinine convoluted plan he needs to have executed that makes no ****ing sense at all and downgrades him as a villain. Eric Killmonger has no such issue - his plan makes sense, his motivations make sense, and he's a sympathetic character.
     
  4. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    I think a distinction between Zemo's plan and the Sokovia Accords should be noted, as they seemingly been blended together.

    The Sokovia Accords as a result of the collateral damages caused by the Avengers and them operating with any government sanctions or oversight. Since the fall of SHIELD, Tony Stark has been housing and funding the Avengers privately. But because of the events in Lagos and the guilt trip laid on Stark by Alfre Woodard's character, Tony feels the Avengers should be held accountable to some governing body. However, because of SHIELD's infiltration by Hydra and the restrictions of the proposed Sokovia Accords, Steve Rogers feels governing authorities can be comprised and their motives self serving. Additionally, innocent lives could be lost if things are discussed in committees when action is needed immediately.

    Zemo's plans were formed with Black Widow releasing all of SHIELD's files on the internet. Zemo learned of the December 16, 1991 Mission Report, and therefore, devised a plan to force Bucky to come out of hiding/have him become the world's most wanted man. It's really not a far fetched idea to think the Avengers or government intelligent agencies would be able to track down and capture Bucky. And as thought, Bucky was captured and Zemo got the information he needed. Bucky told Cap what Zemo wanted which was where in Siberia he was kept.



    They figured that Zemo wanted to revive a group of super soldiers for his own machinations. Zemo successfully predicted the Avengers would come looking for him in Siberia, where he would reveal he wasn't interested in more "supers" but rather creating a rift between Iron Man and Captain America. No one felt it was out of place or out of character that Tony and Cap would come to blows after what Zemo exposed on the videotape, which was Bucky murdering Tony's parents. In the end, it wasn't the Skovia Accords that ended the Avengers, but Zemo's reveal.

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    The Sokovia Accords resulted in heroes being locked up in the raft, at least those who did not sign the accords. Those that did sign the Accords were allowed to operate and remain free, such as Iron Man, War Machine, Vision, Black Widow and Spider-Man. Spider-Man Homecoming alludes to the Avengers are still in operation after the Sokovia Accords were signed and adopted.

    Zemo's plan forced the Avengers to be dissembled and he succeeded by playing to their emotions and convictions.

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    Zemo was not out to topple governments or rule the world (or a portion of it) in any capacity, but rather see the Avengers fall from within.

    The Sokovian Accords' goal was to provide accountability and oversight of the Avengers. Which as still in play in Avengers: Infinity War.

    Zemo's goal was to see the Avengers divided. So, despite the Sokovian Accords, Zemo would have still be able to create a right between Tony and Cap because of Bucky's murdering of Tony's parents.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  5. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    As for Erik Stevens, aka Killmonger, his grievance come from a different place, and the subtext of racial inequality. It's no mistake the films opens with a scene set in 1992, the year of the L.A. riots sparked by the Rodney King incident. Moreover, one of the films underlying theme is identity as noted in this io9 article:
    So, one of the watershed moments of Black Panther, was to give the audience a good idea of what it means to be black in america, and Killmonger represents that frustration and aspect. It's the reason why that character resonates with so many people. Therefore, ultimately, it's not Killmonger's goals that distinguishes him from other Marvel "villains" but rather what he represents. I think it's pretty naive to look at Eric in a vacuum and not take into account the subtext of his character.

    And I'll post the following videos as to why Black Panther is a watershed film, in that it provides representation, inclusion and inspiration.




     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  6. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    SSP, those are two great, thorough summaries.

    But what did Siberia have to do with anything? Why add that component? And why leave clues it was hard for them to figure out hoping they might get to Siberia in time? That whole plot element is the Canto Bight of this film, and its a good 2/3rds of Nemo’s “plan.”

    As you pointed out, the Avengers fighting and arresting one another came from an event that he had nothing to do with. It would have happened anyway. Stark would have been equally angry about the video no matter what continent he saw it on, so why all the machinations to put him in Siberia? His whole plan could have been simplified by sending Tony an email with a link to the footage. That’s one of the only substantive things that even happened.
     
  7. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    In the video I posted above, it notes Siberia was the place were Bucky brought the super soldier serum that Howard Stark was transporting and the place where the failed super soldiers were kept on ice.

    Remember the movie opens with 1991 Siberia, which Bucky being mind controlled and given orders, and he returns to the facility in Siberia with the serum. It's a very key place for the Winter Soldier and the Winter Soldier program (it like Alkali Lake for X-Men/Wolverine). It's where the orders to kill Tony's parents were given.

     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  8. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Watershed moment for America, sure. Outside America, it doesn't really land. I mean, look, as white antipodean of means I can't experience the lense of racial inequality, but having hit the half-way mark on Luke Cage Season 2 I feel like it's giving me a better insight in. I think there's a reason why this film didn't outperform the domestic market...
     
  9. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Yes I know the locations historical significance. But why does that matter? How does it at all add to the present day plot?

    Ender, I think it’s probably true that those outside the US are less interested in the particulars of the African-American experience. I’d still call it a watershed, though. Can you point to another mass market film of this sort of budget that centers on a minority experience and critiques the dominant culture this way?
     
  10. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I thought it was rather contrived and inorganic, seeing how they had to invent a secret past. If you can't get them to come to blows without contriving something out of thin air, that's because what you're trying to sell just isn't there.

    Civil War is the worst movie in the MCU (yes, even The Incredible Hulk is better). Good Guy Action Figures Fight Each Other Because We Want Them To: The Movie. It's complete garbage and entirely unconvincing. It's a child taking his Iron Man action figure and his Captain America action figure and thinking what if they fought and proceeding to smash them together. It is the BvS of the MCU.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  11. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I don't know that we're less interested, Wocky. I've never seen a busier session of the now-defunct Festival of Dangerous Ideas in Sydney than when Alicia Garza came to speak in 2016. We're definitely aware of the experiences of African Americans. But it's not our world. So the watershed moment doesn't land because there was never really a point where blackness was something Other here like it was there. Even with First Australians; we grow up being educated on the Dreamtime in school, on indigenous culture and spirituality, and never in a "isn't it fascinating how quaint these primitives are.." kind of way.

    So watching this or Luke Cage S2, the reality is - and I'm not ashamed to admit it - I didn't get the hype.

    Also I've not disagreed with you regarding the subversive narrative, but I do think the ending scored a point for Hollywood liberalism over radicalism so...
     
  12. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Well then I guess we mean the opposite when we use the word “watershed.” The film only alludes to the African-American experience. There are many more and better explorations in film. In most parts of the country there’s at least some reflection on black, history and culture in schools. That’s not what people found revolutionary here.

    The better comparison is this: How often have the biggest film studios in the Asia/Pacific region gave topline budget to a film about its minorities? What is the biggest budget film Australia has ever made about First Australians, and how does that compare to the biggest budget films there?

    I get that emotionally, you’re outside the cultural context for it to hit home. But in terms of either cinema as an industry or global mass entertainment its still unusual.
     
  13. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Zemo doesn't have the actual recording until he finds the Winter Solider base, right? it wasn't posted with SHIELD declassified files that Black Widow uploaded but the breadcrumbs where there ("I have experience and patience") which led Zemo to The Last HYDRA Agent.
     
  14. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  15. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    There's several Batman-like superheros in Marvel's tent. Tony Stark isn't far removed from Bruce Wayne, and Marc Spector/Moon Knight has a bit of a reversed variation of that going for him as well.
     
  16. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2012
    Thankfully, Marc has his own stuff going on and some crazy mythology to make him different (and better IMO) than Batman. I am not scared of Batman. Moon Knight? Yes, yes I am scared of him and that is part of his appeal to me (and I still want Anson Mount to play Marc).

    Not sure where I stand on Civil War after thinking about Avengers Infinity Wars, specifically Doctor Stange and Thor’s roles. It is so great to see them at full strength it makes the super soldier/tech heads/spies a bit lackluster for me, because I have been wanting full on magic and mythology in my MCU for awhile now.

    If T’Challa and co. take Stark or Captain America’s place in the MCU, I am fine with that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  17. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
  18. Bilbo Fett

    Bilbo Fett Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 19, 2017
    It's been working on that last million for over two months now. I really expected Disney to have fudged it to the mark by now. I guess they must be running it in some doubles with Christopher Robin this weekend which would explain the upswing in it's per theater average.
     
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  19. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
  20. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

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    May 22, 2000
    Oscars: Marvel Aiming for Best Picture with ‘Black Panther’ Despite Popular Film Category

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    I think because of the social significance of the film as well as its overtones, Black Panther has enough merit for serious considerations for Best Picture nominations.

    And, some unfamiliar with the rest of the MCU films, might see some religious overtones. :p

    [​IMG]
     
  21. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2012
    ^ [face_rofl] Oh, man. First, Frozen, now this. [face_laugh]
     
  22. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Best cosplay ever?

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  23. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 18, 2012
    ^ Best BP cosplay ever? Sure.
     
  24. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
    watched Black Panther a few days ago (just hit Netflix today!) and two bits stuck out at me:

    the only time we see T'Challa's eyes in the Black Panther mask is when he confronts Klaw in public, which is a unique choice since we don't see it happen again at any point in the movie. But there is a line where Black Panther says "Look at me!" so I guess that is why T'Challa decided to drop the glass over his pupils so he could look at Klaw eye to eye.

    Other thing which I am sort of confused by - so Killmonger has the war dogs ships loaded up, one of them takes off about 50 feet, and explodes and crashes, out of the wreckage emerges Black Panther, proclaiming he is still King. Awesome moment, great scene.

    How did the War Dog ship crash? Why did Black Panther emerge from it? It was shot down? Did T'Challla run really really fast and just clamber over the wreckage to make his entrance? Did he sneak on board, blow it up, and then come out of the crash? Or, this is my favourite, theory since his suit absorbs kinetic energy and could be used to take down a ship, did they shoot Black Panther out of a canon at the war dog ship and blow it out of the sky with his suit? Like did the stuff him in an old school civil war era canon and fire him? Cuz that would be great.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
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  25. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    The way I saw that scene is that T'Challa jumped into or onto off screen the War Dog ship as it was taking off and just released the kinetic energy that was stored. The kinetic energy stored in T'Challa's suit could have been created numerous ways, such as landing or colliding into the War Dog ship.

     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018