Borrowing from other people's work

In general, sarcasm does not translate well into print. It needs the nuance of visual cues.

 

I think lazy brings up a great point. I'd say interpreting the fact that LFL hasn't cracked down on this or similar other sites implies the fandom is sanctioned leans more on the side of wishful thinking. I'd tend to believe it's tacit consent, especially what with the fan writing contests they've done, but the argument doesn't cover the distinction between author and owner (though I know what you were getting at Ale, and I particularly liked the band analogy).

Lucas owns the rights to the professional work the various Star Wars authors have created, including their OCs. I'd argue, by virtue of what we're doing, he could claim ownership to my OCs, too. That doesn't mean I didn't create them.

I tend to shy away from canon characters - though I'd by lying if I said this was my primary reason - but I certainly make heavy use of events, settings, technology, and the Star Wars lexicon in my stories, and I never use disclaimers, either.

lazy said it perfectly - "and I didn't really care what the authors thought." It's never really entered my mind. When I use a professional author's character, I never think twice, but it would never occur to me to yank a character from one of my fellow OCers without permission. And I would feel the same way if that happened to my own work (unless it was really good, and then I'd be like 'that's my OC!! I made them!!" )

Is it because it's far easier to get another TFN writer's permission, whereas it would be a rare thing for one of those pro authors to write back to me (and expect to see 'permission granted')? Or because in doing so, I feel like I'd be drawing attention to something that's already rather tenuous, at best, when it comes to the law? Or am I just a hypocrit? I think it might be a little of everything, personally.

But the fact that I never thought about it in that way to me means lazy has brought up a great point, and when I think about it rationally I find it hard to come up with a logical defense of my indifference.

Whether Lucas sanctions what we do or not, he and his lawyers didn't create the work, and I'm sure we would all raise objection to the idea that because we don't own the rights to our own stories, that means it's fair game for any other fanficcers to use our elements without permission. So why don't we accord that same common courtesy to authors who poured their own creativity into OCs of their own?

Curse you for your moral dilemmas, lazy!


P.S. I agree that an OC swap sounds pretty fun!

 

I've always thought of fanfic as homage rather than as theft. Self-delusion? Perhaps - but that doesn't change the feeling of respect I have toward the original material, even while I snip the cloth into a new cloak. There is never any question in my mind about who the original weaver is.

If we are all thieves, than at least there is honor among thieves, becuase it's really all we have.

 

But again, if it's homage to fanfic a published author's OC's, why is it theft (and a bannable offense) to fanfic a fanfic author's OC's?

 

Kidan: Dunno. Maybe it's because the profic authors are at least theoretically empowered to do something about it if they so choose, while we are not? So we try to create our own informal framework of "rights" within this one community? Just thinking out loud here. I'n not necessarily advocating one thing or another.

 

Because we all know whose OC Mara Jade is. There's no need to tell anyone that it's not your own OC because everyone knows Tim Zahn made her up and that LFL owns her (as Tim Zahn has said many times). You could try to claim her as your own but you'd be laughed off the boards.

However, if you take an OC from another fanficcer without their knowledge or consent and use it in your story, the reader may assume (and rightly so) that the OC is yours, not the original author's - especially if you don't acknowledge it in the story.

That's the difference.

 

For myself, it's disgusting to take another ficcer's characters without permission because the author thief can't know the intentions of the original author. To be more specific, some fan fic writers use the structured framework of a universe that's already been well-established as a means to write about certain characters and situations they might like to transform into original stories of their own. From fan fic to original fic, with some tweaks and rewrites, isn't that far-fetched. But if those characters, ec. are stolen by another author, then that opportunity is taken away.

 

You summed up my thoughts perfectly.

I would be thrilled if anyone thought one of my OC's was worth putting into their fics... but, I would want credit for creating that OC.

If I want to use someone else's OC, I'd ask permission... not only that ask questions about that OC's backround that I didn't necessarily see the creator include in their story (just ask VaderLVR64 whom I PMed with questions ad nausium when I kidnapped... I mean borrowed... Sian Ny )

I wouldn't expect anything less from my fellow fanficcers.

However, it's almost impossible for us to approach the pro's with those niggling little details that may or may not appear in the professional fics.

 

I come from kind of a strange place on this. Most fanfic writers are working mostly with canon characters, with original characters and places as more of a backdrop. Even if you don't count the events of the plot, the dialogue, the situations, etcetera, and go purely with things I could have borrowed (people, places, things, organizations)... I'd reckon still 94% of my current fic is original material. There's not a canon character to be seen. A few references to Imperials, a Corran namecheck, the planet, and the ideas of CorSec/The Empire/The Death Star are what connect it to the GFFA as we know it.

Another percent or two of it is material borrowed from my fellow fanficcer (with permission and he'll be betaing the chapter using his characters when it comes up). So the fact that people assume the author came up with characters/places/things they don't already know to obviously be LFL's is a good point to consider.

 

I have a few fics where there are no cannon characters as well. Two take place on Tatooine before TPM, and a few more take place in the far future (500+ years). Well, a young Anakin does make a brief cameo in one of the Tatooine ones, as does Watto, but it's only in one update. So, they are totally OC driven... even the minor characters are OC's.

 

Before I got nailed to the virtual wall for not seeing the sarcasm, I HAD made mention, way at the start...

Was it because I said it?

 

I think you just about summed it up there. I've always felt the need to write about OCs, and centre it around the planets, etc, which don't normaly come up in profic, with some referances to locations, characters, organisations and events that happen in profic to make it familliar to people. With some of the stuff I do with the Shistavanens, all I had to go on is a short story, a bit of information found only in roleplaying source books and the name of the planet/system where they originate. Everything else, I had to come up with myself. I can see why authors who write OC centered stories can be rattled by this revalation.

With OCs in profic, what you have to remember is that a lot of them have been used by other authors in profic so that it does almost seem like they've always been there. I don't feel guilty about writing fan fic because a lot of other people (including professional authors), wrote stories before me. For that reason alone I wouldn't consider writing a fan fic based on Kelley Armstrong's Women of the Otherworld series, for instance, or even Harry Potter.

 

On the challenges, I remember two, and both were great fun:

The first was in oqi's infamous OC Writer's Anonymous Yod had the great idea to have a Unsolicited, Unofficial, Unrequested, Informal, and Possibly Illegal OC Jumble EXTRAVAGANZA in which we HAD to write one OC that wasn't ours. (It also included loads of death and destruction as is wont in that thread. ) The outcome was hilrarous and wonderful.

The second was in the OC database, and I got the idea from the author inteviews, when Yod (do I see a pattern here? ) answered the question with which OC he'd like to have dinner. The results were great fun again. Replies are somewhere from here on.


On topic

I don't have much to add. Usually, I am not tempted to use other peple's characters. Maybe because of the same reasons I am not that tempted to use Lucas' OCs either.
If somebody wants to borrow them, okay, just drop me a note and put a sign up in your story. I forgot who said that, but it nails my point of view very well. Most people know who inveted the new canon OCs Like Mara or Corran or whoever. Few would know where to place Maitland or Loki.
I once mistook Canderous for an OC. Um, I forgot which point that was to prove. I'll go an ponder on this some more.

 

Perhaps, the crux of it is that every Star Wars fanficcer knows that Mara Jade (just using an easily identifiable example here) was created by Zahn. It goes without saying. We put our little disclaimers up and every Mara fan reads to see if the fanficcer 'got it right' and then we rejoice that Zahn created her in the first place (or not, depending on who you are ).

With fanfic OC's, that certainty of knowledge isn't there. No one knows that Neo-Paladin created the Jedi Master Sanah-Ala and they won't unless I tell them. Personally, I would be embarrassed to take credit for something HE CREATED regardless of how well I write her. Therefore, I am always careful to credit. Always. I will bask in the comments about my writing, but creation and creativity for her go to my friend Neo.

Zonoma

EDIT: HOLY SHAKE!!! I read through the post I quoted and no further before making it and WHOA. dianethx and I basically wrote the same thing. Weirdness. I promise that wasn't on purpose but yeah. What she said.

 

Zonoma - great minds think alike?

 

But as MsLanna so succinctly points out, that certainty of knowledge is not that for profic characters as well. In addition, I've been questioned a couple of times in the past about the use of profic character as name drops, by individuals who thought I was referring to their OC.

Additionally, there's a world of difference between saying "Neo-Paladin created Jedi Master Sanah-Ala in the story XYZ" (which is the same as saying "This story is based upon Star Wars") and going to Neo-Paladin and asking permission to his the character/situation.

 

IMHO, fanfic featuring canon characters is not ?borrowing? or "stealing" from the profic authors. The published creators of the EU do not own the characters they create for the SW franchise. Even if we did, for example, contact Tim Zahn to ask permission to write a fanfic about Mara, his answer would be: ?Ask LFL ? she doesn?t belong to me.?

Everything Star Wars (including our fanfic) belongs to George, but George allows us write without restriction, as long as we don?t try to sell it.

Plagiarism is the bannable offense and is defined as "deliberately copying an author's work and claiming it as your own."



As stated in the section of the FAQ titled: [color=0066cc]Plagiarism[/color]

b) If you borrow material from another fanfic or profic author, or any real-life material in general (such as song lyrics or poetry), the original creator must be credited.

My understanding of that statement is that claiming another fanficcer?s OC as your own character and/or copying their work and claiming it as your own would be what is considered bannable.

Plagiarism of a profic author would be defined as copying page 194 from Heir to the Empire and inserting it in your story as your own content. Writing a fanfic about Luke meeting Mara, however, would not be plagiarism.

c) Before borrowing from a fellow fanfic author, please exercise decorum and ask that author's permission first.

Asking permission to borrow from a fellow fanfic author is a matter of courtesy. Accusations of plagiarism for borrowed content would be handled on a case-by-case basis, I believe.

 

Actually, it's not just a matter of courtesy. It's a fiat, which is enforced with possible punishment, up to and including banning.

From the Fanfic FAQ (General Fan Fic Etiquette--Borrowing section):

When it comes to story ideas, OCs, names, titles - literally, anything that was created by someone else - you must ask the creator for permission to borrow. Failure to do so could result in anything from a stern warning to a ban.

Reading the FAQ literally, I am required to go and get permission from Nancy Richardson anytime I have a story that features either Tahiri or Ikrit. Failure to do so, could get me banned.

And again, the FAQ does not concern itself about copyright issues--but rather explicitly states that you must ask the CREATOR of the OC, name, title, etc for permission to use. So regardless of who 'owns' Mara Jade, according to the FAQ I must ask Zahn for permission to use her, Myrkr, Talon Karrde or even ysalamiri.

 

My $0.02.

Maybe it is a double-standard. My question is, why do people have such a problem with it? It's not like we're comparing apples to apples, here. While it may be somewhat flattering to the OC authors to put them on the same plane as Timothy Zahn, the reality is nowhere near that.

OCs, defined as any character not appearing anywhere in licensed canon of any level, have a very limited readership. I think it's wonderful when someone can create an OC that inspires others to write about him/her. I think it's common courtesy, regardless of what the FAQ does or does not say, to contact the author before going and writing something about their character. Why? This author, like profic authors, has poured a lot of love into the character, but gets very little in return. In fact, pretty much all they'll get for their effort are the reviews. If someone wanted to write about one of my OCs? That'd be fantastic. But I'd appreciate being asked. Not because I think they're violating my copyright or maiming my children or anything, but because I'm easily available. This is a community, not a bookstore.

It doesn't hurt anybody to ask permission, and it's letting the author know that you really inspired them. Sure, you might be turned down. I have been, but it wasn't the end of the world (even though I'm a little sad the world was deprived of seeing Mazaricky MaclaMahoney at dinner- 'twas the oqster's call, and I respect that).

In short... what diane said.

 

Bold added by moi.

The other Mods can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the Fan Fic FAQ applies to Fan Fiction content created by Fan Fiction authors at TFN and it is specific to this board as a privately owned forum.


LFL does not require us to get permission for non-commercial use of licensed characters/material.

 

It's been a while since I've popped at Resource and that serves me right. This is a good topic, lazy, that really comes close to the heart of this community and I guess that's why the discussions have tended to be tense. (For the record, I did see the irony - not sarcasm, by the way - in the starting post right away but that is probably due to my own brand of humour.)

Is it hypocritical for fan writers to cling so firmly to their 'Original'* (used loosely for how Original is my Character or Story when it's defined by several canon parameters?) Characters when by the very definition of ourselves, we don't extend the same courtesy to the original creators? The objective answer - from someone outside both the professional writing and the fan fiction writing world - would be 'Yes'.

But nothing is ever that simple. Someone correct me if I am wrong but the reason copyright expires over time is because law (and society begets law) understands that there comes a time when the created thing outgrows, so to speak, its created and becomes the property of the world. Of course, this is not the case as Lucas and us fan fiction writers are still alive (knock on wood) with his copyright on Star Wars far from expired. It is still something to think about in relationship with this topic.

Another thing to consider is that despite the good fanfic writer's vow to honour the intentions of the original writers, the fact remains that the writers who put an embargo on fan fiction are less popular for that very reason. And even the nicer ones - JK Rowling, George Lucas - have handed out 'cease & desist' notes to websites which have hosted stories that have crossed their personal squick boundaries. There are some Chronicles of Narnia fan fiction that I'm betting the late CS Lewis would not have taken as a compliment. Here's looking at you, Neil Gaiman. (Which of course raises the issue of whether a derivative work ever stops being fanfic.)

 

I must here, to wit:

From the Fanfic FAQ (General Fan Fic Etiquette--Borrowing section):

When it comes to story ideas, OCs, names, titles - literally, anything that was created by someone else - you must ask the creator for permission to borrow. Failure to do so could result in anything from a stern warning to a ban.

I know that a story here has the same title as one of my stories (this was a year or two ago). Now, supposedly that means that other author "took" my created title?

Where it's fuzzy is stuff like: Yoda's stew, or whatever. Is that SOMEONE's original idea? I remember PM'ing an author some years back asking if such and such was "open" source or original.

I very accidentally last December wrote a viggie using a term that VaderLVR64 used in a story predating that by a month or so - when I revisited her absolutely delightful story I promptly PM'd her with my horror and asked if she'd like acknowledgement or a change and she, every so kindly, replied how many names can one come up with for GFFA holidays and don't bother. (You da' greatest, Kim! )

Had it been another author, would I have possibly have been in trouble for using "Gifts of the Heart" day - and in my title, of all things?!?

Do we "own" our titles? The one and only reason I care is - confusion - hey, I thought "insert name" was by so-and-so about such-and-such.

Where's the line on "story ideas?" Anakin's first kill, Obi-Wan's ascent to the Council, heck, Xan betraying Qui-Gon - you could write a million different stories on each scenario, but isn't each scenario a "story idea"?

I suppose all of the above "belong" to GL, so are thereotically fair game for fanficcers.

AW, I'm unnecessarily getting nit-picky so will depart for now, but I am curious about the "duplicate title" issue, rare as it is, just in general terms.

 

No, it's usually accidental and is fine.

Other things have just become part of the fannon and the JC Fanfic knowledge base. I've seen "Captain Cardboard" used as a nickname for Jag Fel a dozen places, all without crediting the creator because it became so common that people forgot (I think Dana created it, but not positive).

 

Valairy_Scot:
I suppose all of the above "belong" to GL, so are thereotically fair game for fanficcers.

Very true. We don't own any of this stuff. Even our OCs belong to Uncle George.



AW, I'm unnecessarily getting nit-picky so will depart for now, but I am curious about the "duplicate title" issue, rare as it is, just in general terms.

I've seen lots of stories with the same title. Ishtar and I both had fics named "Point of No Return" a few years ago (I changed the title of mine when I discovered hers so people wouldn't get confused). I've seen several "Ignite the Stars," and probably a half-dozen fics named "Choices." It happens. We're all playing in the same sandbox and sometimes people pick up the same toys.

 

Do we "own" our titles? The one and only reason I care is - confusion - hey, I thought "insert name" was by so-and-so about such-and-such.

No, we don't own the titles. I believe that even profic authors don't own their titles. So several people could write "Life in the fast lane" and it would be legitimate each time.