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Can we bring a policy back?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Diggy, Jun 6, 2020.

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  1. LAJ_FETT

    LAJ_FETT Tech Admin and Collecting/Lucasfilm Ltd Mod star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    I think we do need to at least address the paywall issue - it's frustrating to click on a link to,say, a newspaper article, and then finding out only subscribers can view the content. If posters link to material they know is behind a paywall they should either add that information in the post or put a short synopsis of the article there.
     
  2. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Paywalls are not the issue. I think the issue is that that Disney era influx of new people (that some thought was going to save the forum) has turned out to largely consist of the same kind of boring people that had already come and gone. With their boring links, their boring stock opinions and their boring random things threads. If we need one rule, it's "don't be boring".
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  3. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I don't post in Senate threads these days, but I do enjoy reading them. Well, I did enjoy it until about 6 months ago, mainly due to certain posters posting almost nothing but negative (and probably inaccurate) Twitter articles with an emoji. It's superficial, and, believe it or not, anxiety inducing. Maybe this is their way of venting? Who knows, who cares, it's frustrating.
     
  4. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    This is most likely the immediate way forward.

    This, and pointing out paywalled tweets.

    EDIT: ima tag a few senate regs - see if this is something they have any thoughts to add.

    @heels1785 @Jedi Merkurian @Healer_Leona @anakinfansince1983 @Outsourced @Lord Vivec @dp4m @Vaderize03 @TCF-1138
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I agree with asking people to elaborate if they just post a tweet with an emoji and no commentary. I also agree about pointing out to people that the article they post is behind a paywall and asking for a recap.

    Right now the Senate tag vs the JCC tag is used to differentiate discussions that are supposed to be more serious from discussions that are more social. I think for the most part the tags have served that purpose. The Amphitheater and Arena tags serve the same purpose for arts and sports threads.

    I think this is something we can self police as a community for right now without us having to intervene as moderators, but we have stepped in previously when someone is doing nothing but spamming a thread and we can do so again.
     
  6. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I think it would be good to differentiate between making short posts (whether tweets or words) for humorous purposes and doing it for other reasons. Even within Senate-themed discussion, such posts between friends/longtime members often goes over well and adds to the community. Really, I think that should be the fundamental question: does something add or take away from the community? That's a subjective question, of course, but it gets answered with some definition over time.
     
  7. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Hi guys,
    Just found out about this thread and naturally, I'm concerned.

    Look, I'm all for a friendly discussion around this subject. Believe it or not, I truly honestly don't mean to annoy anyone, God's honest truth. I do enjoy positive communication. The problem I have as a person with several neurological disabilities is that I'm not always going to be on the same wavelength as everyone else in terms of what constitutes positive engagement. I honestly try to find a way to engage with others positively. When it doesn't happen, it's usually part of a process that's sometimes puzzling to me.

    For the longest time I've honestly felt Darth Punk and @SuperWatto had some kind of personal thing against me, for some reason I didn't understand, and that they were always just out to find some reason or excuse to criticize me, mock me, or otherwise being hostile against me. And I honestly couldn't understand why.

    Do we want to change the ways we communicate with each other in some JCC forums? I'm all for a friendly discussion, bear in mind I've really done my best to follow the existing rules as I understand them.

    And I don't always write extensively before sharing a link because I figure there is already at least a 50-50 chance nobody's going to look at it, or at least not have anything to say about it.

    Whatever you think of me, don't think I'm trying to be annoying or disruptive or anything like that, because honestly I'm not.


    I don't know if you're referring to me, but I don't see how entitlement has anything to do with it. I remember folks posting even more frequently than I do currently, back around the turn of the century.

    I'd like to see the forums being a place of vibrant, joyous communication. At least when the opportunity allows.

    When someone posts any kind of link I'm not interested in, I just skim ahead. I don't start tearing my hair out because the post wasn't something I'm interested in. And I especially don't publicly antagonize the person who shared it, at least not that I can recollect.

    I don't have to tell anyone the last few months have been extremly stressful for all of us.

    Also, KnightWriter, calling me out publicly in the middle of a thread is the least sensitive way you could have to express your concerns. There are more friendly ways to do that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  8. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    That could be a clue as to whether to post something or not. If you don't think anyone's going to look, it's probably best not to post.

    Frequency isn't the issue-- it's the content. Back in the day, there was a time I averaged 20 posts a day. There's no way I could do that now, even if I have days where I go above that number. I also have many, many more days (and sometimes weeks/months) where I hardly post at all. For me, if I'm not getting any kind of engagement with something (be it likes/approval or discussion), there's a good chance that my contribution was unnecessary at best. To be sure, this is an internet message board and no one is doing God's essential work here (that I know of), but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't make a basic attempt to be relevant.

    I have no doubt that you're not attempting to be annoying-- no one thinks of themselves as the antagonist of their own story, or almost no one does (and I'm sure no involved in this discussion). However, as I've learned first-hand multiple times, the impact we have is sometimes different from our intentions.

    Having been here for close to two decades, I can say that this is one area where people's mileage varies. I've never read or heard anyone say that that's what they want out of the JC. That doesn't mean it isn't valid, or that I'm the keeper of all knowledge when it comes to what people want, but I do think you're in the minority. I don't think anyone wants a slugfest of caustic posts, but I think a certain edginess is frequently appreciated, particularly as we (perhaps regrettably, except for the alternative) get older.

    What you you regard as "positive" may strike others differently. I can only speak for myself, but I'm mostly interested in meaningful discussion here, particularly as a way to distill momentous current events. In all my time here, my favorite experience is Game 7 of the 2016 NBA Finals-- shared with people I know in a real way. In order to get to that place, it takes more than empty posts.
     
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  9. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    It's not like that at all, though!

    Sometimes there are genuinely good and relevant bits of news or whatever that for whatever reason don't catch someone's eye immediately afterwards, and yet someone could come into the thread hours later or days later and find that post to be worthwhile, and they may even interact with it... but again, there may be cases where the person(s) who may be interested in something won't see it until much later.

    Just because someone doesn't like it, quote it, or comment on it in the first few hours after you post doesn't mean there isn't someone who may appreciate it later. You just never know.

    But again, I think it makes a lot more sense imho that if you're not interested in something at that particular point in time, you'd just skim ahead. I skim past a lot of stuff in my Twitter feed, and sometimes end up coming back to it later on once I'm done skimming.
     
  10. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I feel like this goes without saying, but the JC isn't twitter and doesn't operate with the same dynamics. Applying the same views to both is probably a source of some people's frustrations here.

    When a post gets made, it moves a thread along-- when it moves to another page, that's where most people go. We go forward, but not often backwards. Anyone who posts something is affecting a thread and accompanying discussion, whether they mean to or not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  11. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    I'm not operating under the assumption that the JCC is Twitter. I'm not assuming that it operates with the same dynamics, other than any one thread being similar to a feed on any other information system. You may be interested in every single item. Or you may be interested in select information. Your interest may vary depending on the day of the week or the time of day. You may not even know about certain things at all that are actually of interest to you until someone mentions them.

    The thing is, if something irritates you when a person is obviously not trying to be irritating, there are more tactful ways to go about it. I've always been suspicious of people who aren't mods but start trying to mod other folks. When that is accompanied by overt hostility, then it really makes effective communication much harder. And for the record, it's not you I'm thinking of when I speak of overt hostility.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
  12. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    I think something needs to be said for the last few weeks having provided an unprecedented onslaught of content that we are not used to seeing at a rate that was hard to keep up with. And a lot of the points made and news provided in various tweets have been worthy of sharing. Especially when it involved video or some other form of media that otherwise could not be embedded in a thread here. If discussion or commentary on that particular point was made, so be it. If not, I don't think it's a bad thing to have been provided, and people could decide for themselves if they want to look into it further. I normally don't get involved in political or current event threads in the JCC, and the past few weeks have been the first time I had done so since a few years ago when I decided to no longer participate in those kinds of threads. I might have popped in every once in a while to say something obvious or make a stupid joke, but that's it. So I don't know the extent that this kind of thing has been happening outside of the past few weeks. As things seem to be simmering down now, perhaps it can be addressed and the JCC can move forward from here and establish a stricter policy about it if they so choose. But I do think we ought to excuse the tweets and links and media embeds as of late just given how crazy the last few weeks have been.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  13. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Eh, I don't care that Tina's post aren't always content heavy - sometimes I like the stuff she posts and it's pretty interesting. I get more annoyed that when she is called out in something she shows no self-reflection.
     
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  14. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Thank you!!! Thank you because I think you're actually hitting the nail in the head. Yes the last couple of weeks have been pretty intense. I am finding myself glued to various means of communication much more so than at any other time in recent months. I don't think it was that long ago that I'd only check in 2-3 times a day.

    I came back to the JCC after a long absence in part because it felt like a proper place to celebrate the end of the Skywalker saga and I missed a lot of people here. I had no idea that just a few months later we'd be dealing with a global pandemic and worse. Nothing like this has happened in our lifetimes, and sometimes it feels good to know there's a friendly place where you can chat for a while.
     
  15. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    When a community has been around as long as this one, with people whose collective years of posting probably qualify for social security at least twice over, it means that there's a lot happening between the lines. It also means that a community is going to speak up and/or take action when it sees a problem. Not through collective discussion, but through subtle means and various methods of signaling.

    If these are things that you have trouble picking up on, it could explain a lot of the problem here.

    Speaking of picking up on things-- here's one. Tina, I don't think it's going out on a limb to suggest that most people you're interacting with on a regular basis don't have much interest in the films these days, or maybe even Star Wars in general. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your interest-- it's great and maybe even commendable. However, earnestness without self-awareness is almost inherently problematic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  16. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    I don't know what you mean, exactly, I think it's more a matter of different ways of interpreting a situation. Like I said earlier, I felt extremely harrased by @Darth Punk and @SuperWatto in one particular thread, I remember asking them to leave me alone and their not being willing to honor that request.

    I have PTSD due to being a victim of a violent crime, and you have absolutely no idea how unsettling and triggering it is to sense there's hostility towards you for reasons you don't understand or have done anything to encourage, and especially if you feel that a polite "leave me alone" just results in further harassment.

    Just yesterday DP made a sexually explicit remark about me in the coronavirus thread, which PG had to edit out.

    That's not the way you make a point if you feel you have a valid point to make.
     
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  17. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Aside from mods, we're all just random people on the internet who decided to make accounts here and start posting. Just because somebody has been posting here longer than somebody else shouldn't grant them any means whatsoever to imply or suggest how another user should go about their posting. Speaking up when a potential issue is noticed and going through the proper channels to address that issue is one thing. But nobody has a right to "take action" on another user just because they've been here and have interacted with other users longer. What you're describing is literally a clique.
     
  18. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I'm sorry about your experience and trauma-- that would certainly affect anyone's perception of hostility.

    I think what people here are attempting to do (certainly me) is to explain where some of that hostility is coming from and why your posting encourages it at times. From what I've gathered here, it has sometimes been expressed inappropriately. That doesn't mean that it too isn't understandable.

    It's not a clique, because anyone is welcome to post and contribute. The catch is that a certain degree of sophistication is encouraged and desired. To post in such a way that seems devoid of real intelligence or sense of purpose beyond posting just to post is going to meet with some derision. You can't get around the reality of either this community's age or the time many of us have known each other. It's part of how things are here. There are no signs on a treehouse saying that outsiders aren't welcome. What I think is unwelcome are cheap posts we've seen made over and over again, or earnestness that seems detached from reality.

    Also, "taking action" is too literal. People communicate in ways that go beyond the surface, particularly if they've known each other for a long time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  19. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Yes, I very much agree with that, and for a very long time I just started feeling that some of the folks with "colors" had a sense of entitlement and having the right to tell people they didn't like "don't do this because I don't like it!" - and in the most unfriendly way possible, to boot.

    Do you see how easily the hostility flows out? Reading that just makes me feel like it's a thinly-disguised way of suggesting I'm just an unintelligent person or someone who has "no sense of purpose"
     
  20. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    You're still describing, and very much condoning, a clique. As moderator emeritus, I don't agree with that as something you should be doing on a publicly available forum.

    We're all just random people on the internet. Nobody knows each other here beyond interacting on a forum. Everybody here just happened to make an account and start posting. Maybe some of you guys might know each other little bit, and that's totally fine. But that certainly should not grant that group of people an ability over any another user to suggest how they post. If they see an issue and want to address it, they should do so through the proper channels. And I'm only referring to users here, not moderators.

    And again, in reference to the past few weeks, I think the excess of media embeds ought to be excused. And from here on out, it can be addressed accordingly.
     
  21. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I didn't say you're unintelligent-- you clearly are intelligent. Instead, I said "posting in a way that seems devoid of real intelligence or sense of purpose beyond posting just to post". There are certain unspoken standards here, as there are in most communities. The most successful people (both in real life and online) tend to pick up on these standards and either live or post accordingly. Speaking from experience, if you go against them, there may be problems, even if you've technically done nothing wrong.

    To be as charitable as possible, this is false. A lot of people here have met each other in real life. Some have been in relationships, including marriages and children. Beyond that, there are many, many friendships that have long since crossed over into real life, or exist primarily there now. There are people here with Real Adult jobs and houses and graduate degrees that I've known since they were in high school. A friend's place in New York is something of a home away from home for me in the City-- I've known them since 2001 and photographed their wedding.

    No, we're not all just random people to each other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  22. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Don't moderators exist precisely to prevent that and to allow users to post in their own manner?

    You are literally condoning a clique on here.

    That's fine. Have your friendships. But it should not in any way, shape, or form grant them leverage over any other users on here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  23. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    You have just said something that actually goes to the crux of the issue.

    And while you may not realize it, while technically accurate, what you just posted is also extremely ableist. For starters, it appears very obvious you are a neurotypical person or, at the very least, one who could pass for neurotypical in your everyday social interactions.

    So, just so you realize why it's ableist: yes, we absolutely live in a world where neurotypical people almost invariably develop multiple unwritten rules. And most of them can be very vicious about enforcing those unwritten rules in their day-to-day lives. And part of the thing about neurotypical privilege is, you don't even consciously realize you enjoy that privilege if you don't actually try to interact and learn from neurodivergent folks, and to understand why this disability can make any kind of social interactions a potential mine field.

    Because I am not neurotypical, I have literally no idea what unspoken or unwritten rules I may occasionally not be fully aware of, even though I'm a college-educated person with an above-average IQ.

    And these days it's even commonplace in TV and movies to poke fun at the misfits who are, in their general behavior, very much caricatures of neurodivergent people. Sure, let's make fun of Sheldon Cooper because he genuinely doesn't understand why he's annoying to some people.

    In case it hadn't crossed your mind, these unwritten rules are terribly unfair to people who, due to underlying neurological conditions, are not fully able to understand or pick up on, or interpret the same way as those people who aren't neurologicallly disabled.

    So I really do think it would behoove you to read a little bit about neurodiversity and try to be supportive of people like us, try to lend a helping hand, understand that many of us genuinely have a hard time processing anything that is unwritten, unspoken, or not articulated in a clear, unambiguous way.

    I've done quite a bit of disability rights advocacy over the years and I'm happy to provide some links and info if you or anyone else wants it.

    And please remember that all of these unwritten/unspoken rules are sometimes very confusing for people who are neurodivergent - whether it be spectrum issues, learning issues, or any other thing. There are quite a few invisible disabilities that can adversely impact a person's ability to have normal social interactions with the other people around them.

    Also bear in mind that the suicide rates for people with some of these conditions are astronomically high, you can Google it if you think I'm exaggerating. This happens precisely because of the hostility we typically encounter from neurotypicals - we call them NTs for short. I'm very lucky to be in generally very good condition psychologically, considering the circumstances and everything that is going on in the world right now. But a lot of people with these disabilities don't even make it to their middle age. And most of society just couldn't care less about it. That's a pattern that seems to exist almost everywhere.

    Feels that way to me too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  24. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Look, folks -- "this is the way we've always done it" isn't going to be a justification for board policy, and it is NOT going to be a justification to try to badger another user to conform to a desired set of behaviors. Boards have their culture, but board culture also changes with the times too. We're a very old messageboard coming up against a much faster-moving news cycle than even we are used to.

    I do not want this thread to become a referendum on a single user's behavior. It's being exactly what I thought it was, even though I was immediately assured that it is not in fact about a single user.

    Part of that is because there's a discussion going on back and forth. I am fine with folks having a discussion and there's something to be said of the community deciding how it wants certain threads to go.

    My feeling is still that I don't want to set any hard and fast rules against linking stories without content -- because sometimes that's a relevant post. The example of the Literature forum was brought up: sometimes the initial post of a thread is nothing more than a link to a tweet or article announcing a new book or project, and plenty of discussion occurs after that.

    If we're talking, instead, about spamming with constant links and no content -- I'd prefer to deal with that on a case by case basis. Talk to a mod about it.

    Is there anything objectionable about that, where a rule would be preferred? Let me know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  25. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    With some fast-moving stories, sometimes everything that one would need to know is right there in the linked Tweet. Sure, it would be easy to add a few sentences saying why it's relevant, but I think in many instances the relevance would be self-explanatory.

    For every single thing that I've posted a Twitter link to, I could easily have paraphrased the exact same information and not share the Twitter link at all. Easiest thing in the world to do, and in either scenario the exact same information would be included.

    It's really about exactly how the same information is being formatted on-screen, that's ALL it is.

    But hey at least we have moved past the times when the single point of contention was about whether or not an emoji was included... o_O
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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