main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Can we bring a policy back?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Diggy, Jun 6, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    This whole thread gives this entire forum a really bad look. If I'm a new user on here, and I read through this thread, a thread that is located in a place that new users are likely going to look at when they initially sign up, all I see are a bunch of people feeling way too entitled and possessive over this forum and considering it their own personal club. A new user is not likely going to be able to distinguish between the JCC and the overall JCF, which would paint the entire forum as being like this. And regardless of what Tina's reasons are for expressing her concerns and whether people agree with them or not, that too also has a bad look to it in people repeatedly suggesting she doesn't belong here. Whatever you guys want to do in the JCC or how you feel about it is your business. But again, looking at this from the perspective of a new user, this thread isn't exactly going to make me want to dive right in and start getting involved. Especially given how poorly Star Wars fans are already viewed by much of the general public, this just looks like more of the same.

    This is a publicly available forum that should look inviting for anybody to come in and take part in the discussions. Mods, you might want to consider removing this thread entirely at some point just for the sake of new users not stumbling on it and getting the wrong impression about this forum as a whole.
     
  2. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    The point, Tina, is that it seems clear that you not only want everyone to get along, you believe everyone should get along. This is unrealistic at best, and it also impedes on the will of people to decide for themselves how they best want to interact with others.

    @MotivateR5D4

    Just go away-- seriously. This discussion is (again) nothing compared to what's come before it. Please stroll through older Communications threads for some perspective. Somehow, their existence has not kept new people from coming here. If any of this keeps someone new from joining in, that's their loss. I'm certainly not going to be concerned about it and I doubt I'm alone in that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  3. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    @KnightWriter: I'll post as I see fit. Like you have suggested to others, if you don't like the things I post, just put me on ignore.
     
    Princess_Tina likes this.
  4. tom

    tom Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    lol it's true that if this is the very first thread someone reads on these forums they probably won't have a very good time. but i can't imagine they'd get very far.

    anyway it's sometimes a good thing to hash out our differences in public. sometimes it leads to progress or the solving of misunderstandings, or at least people feeling their voices are being heard. not sure this is really one of those times, but it's okay to try to work through these things even if it's a bit messy or "not a good look". we hopefully don't need to present ourselves as some kind of utopia in order to attract the occasional new member.
     
  5. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    So, as I asked in the other thread, what is the proposal? What is the goal here? Is there some rule you feel we are missing in YJCC? If so, what would you like to see?

    It's fine to share concerns, but without solutions, there will be no progress. In my opinion, the existing policies on what is and is not appropriate for the forums, as well as the harassment policy appear to cover much of what has been touched on. And there are additional procedures in place should users need to reach out to a moderator, report a post, or place a user on ignore (which seems to be the current decision by many). But beyond that, what is the ask now? If this is not resolving the problem, then perhaps another solution is needed- but I do not see any suggestions for one.

    It seems like we are all in agreement we do not want the place to turn into Twitter. And there are rules being enforced to keep that in mind (appropriate language, spam posts, harassment, etc.). If the ask is for the YJCC to change as a whole, then that is an ask that may well be too big. As we have seen in recent weeks, the change of a culture can be very slow and YJCC has a long history and culture. And while moderators and users have worked together to enact change when it has become necessary, changing the entire culture would need buy in from a lot more parties. And to be honest, I am not sure what is gained by such a move. People who are still sarcastic will still be sarcastic. People who are negative will still be negative. Trying to change every user's behavior (because that seems to be the implied ask by some) is just going to result in more people being banned and to be honest will stifle growth of discussion. Look no further than how the politics threads can sometimes become echo chambers because so many of us are in agreement. Having different perspectives and points of view are how you foster discussion. Now, not every person will agree. Not everyone will like each other. And that is where the policies and features on this board come in. So again, I come back to: What is the ask?
     
  6. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    @Yodaminch . IIRC the policy in question in the thread title was something to do with the Senate threads, but ultimately it was decided that many of the concerns had to do with then pandemic thread specifically. It started out as a JCC thread but was merged with a Senate thread. So, the mods determined to let the pandemic thread to be double-tagged as both JCC and Senate, and I believe that is the most sensible solution.

    So this thread really no longer serves the purpose for which it was started, as far as I can see.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
    Yodaminch likes this.
  7. Boba_Fett_2001

    Boba_Fett_2001 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2000
  8. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    @Yodaminch: I have no solution to the situation being discussed in regards to Twitter posts or the one user who you all don't like. That's your business, and ultimately for the mods to decide.

    The only thing I am pointing out is how much this thread makes this entire forum appear to be a special club that only certain members are allowed in. I've been active here for some time myself, and this thread is the first I became aware of some core group of users who get to dictate how things are done in the JCC. All I ask is a little acknowledgment that this is a publicly available forum, and that people can get involved in their own manner. That just because somebody has been here longer or has established associations with other users should not in any way grant them leverage over how another user goes about their posting. Even if it goes against your supposed established culture here. If you want that among yourselves or whoever you deem as part of that culture, so be it. But not everybody has to abide by that. Take a step back from this level of possessiveness that a lot of the people in this thread feel about the JCC, and remember this is a forum that is available for anybody to partake in, and in whichever manner they choose (obviously assuming it is in the guidelines of the forum).
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
    Princess_Tina likes this.
  9. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Exactly! Possessiveness leads to the Dark Side, Yoda taught us that :p

    I don't think it's unreasonable to expect these forums be a place where everyone is treated equally, so long as we're all following the rules that are in place. And these folks don't get upset because people aren't following the rules, they get upset because they want to change the rules specifically with the people they don't like in mind.

    The rules are very fair the way they are. I don't have any problem with the current rules.

    The other problematic aspect here is that we already live in a society that loves to silence women and put us in our place if we're outspoken - even when we're doing so within the scope of the existing rules, even if we're just asking for the same respect that all the guys get. So it comes as no surprise that so many of the people posting here seem to have this idea that "yeah she's following the rules by the book, but I still really don't like her!!"
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  10. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    No, but there are more than the occasional new members signing up here. You type "Star Wars Forum" into google, and this is the first place that comes up. So I wouldn't place such little emphasis on the value of new users.

    And I brought this up to the mods because ultimately it's up to them to make that determination. But it is a perspective I wanted to address based on reading through this thread.
     
    Princess_Tina likes this.
  11. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    @MotivateR5D4

    Many newer people have come into the JCC and done well over the past few years, like @DarkGingerJedi and @CairnsTony. Their success is no doubt due to their ability to fit recognize the mood of the community and add to it in ways that are both distinctive and understood by all. Contrary to what you may believe, there's no club, and new members aren't kept out or unwanted. People are welcome to get involved in whatever manner they would like. However, that doesn't mean that each way is going to be equally successful or appreciated.


    Earnestly talking up Star Wars or using examples from it is perhaps the fastest way I can think of to be quickly marginalized in the JCC.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  12. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    To be honest, my first profile here was created back in 2002 during AOTC (It had an aol addy and is long gone) after spending a few years lurking (since 99) and building up the 'courage' to post for the first time.

    God. That all feels like eons ago.
     
    Princess_Tina likes this.
  13. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    Can you remember the excitement around 1999? It was something else. Bulletin boards were pretty new to most people. Good memories.
     
  14. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    @KnightWriter: The fact that you can pinpoint new users like that and explain just how well they fit into your supposed community here proves exactly my point. Those are two users out of who knows how many that have signed up since they did.

    And to further say that anybody is welcome to post here but that their manner of posting may not be equally successful or appreciated, preceded by saying that new members are welcome and that there isn't some club here, is pretty contradictory.

    I'm not saying you can't have your core group of friends here and go about the supposed culture you all have among yourselves. But also keep in mind this is a publicly available forum and not everybody has to abide by that culture.
     
    Princess_Tina likes this.
  15. CairnsTony

    CairnsTony Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 7, 2014
    I think the Community tone has changed somewhat recently...

    I first entered this community a few years ago and felt most unwelcome. I tried again several months later, and if anything, felt even less welcome still. Then I tried to contribute to the football thread during the World Cup and that was, literally, the worst experience of all, to the point where I reported someone for what I perceived as bullying; because, you know, it sort of got to me after a while.

    With Star Wars imploding for me at the end of last year, I tried yet again, and so far it has been fine. Most of those people are still here, so I'm puzzled as to why I'm now suddenly OK; I mean I've not experienced those hostilities this time at all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
    Coruscant likes this.
  16. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    I hope you don't mind, but I wanted to address the bold specifically. There may be "regulars" but I really would not go so far as to say they dictate how things are done. That has always fallen to the moderators and the owner. My point earlier was about behavior and culture. The YJCC has always been ironically both the most mature and perhaps immature area on this board in that discussion can range from the super serious topics of racism and government politics to the more lighthearted and wacky threads like the photoshop thread or random song lyrics out of context. Now, the merging of these two personalities occurred some time ago and it can lead to conflicts as a result, but we've also tried it the other way where everyone went to their respective corners - and the overall consensus was it was better to allow some YJCC into the Senate then have it off on its own.

    As to your ask about acknowledging that people can get involved in their own manner, you are correct. Me for instance? I didn't really start posting in YJCC until several years in and only in a few threads that I felt interested in. There are plenty of threads I may read but do not participate in. Ultimately, there is no rule stopping one from choosing to participate or not.

    However, with that, there has to be the acknowledgement that because this is a discussion board if you choose to participate in the discussion, you should be prepared for others to disagree with your point of view and perhaps post something you dislike or disagree with strongly. I understand your ask that older users should not be granted leverage over how another user goes about their posting, but this goes both ways. It does not strike me as reasonable to expect older users to change their posting style to accommodate new members just because they don't like the tone of the post.

    If the post is genuinely offensive or violates a rule, that is different and there are policies and procedures to address that. But to ask users who may post with a far more sarcastic style to change their behavior just because is a bit too far and I would hope that the parties involved would try to resolve their differences first or use the ignore feature if needed (which seems to be where we landed on one of the issues). Having said that, if you or others truly believe there is some issue that needs to be addressed, that is what Comms is here for. In the past we have seen changes like the addition of a harassment policies and words added/removed to the banned word list. The board is not static and it does change with the times. But if that is not the ask, then I am unsure what the discussion is even about at this point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  17. tom

    tom Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    i think you're being a little melodramatic. this has been a discussion, albeit a rather unproductive one. i don't see anyone trying to dictate anything, it's a back and forth. i also don't see anyone who seems to be so lacking in perspective that they are mistaking these for matters of life and death. i won't deny that there is some possessiveness about the forum. "we don't like new people and we don't like change", as the song says. but ultimately that really comes down to the fact that we care about the place and what becomes of it. this is far from the first time that there has been a disagreement over posting etiquette or what constitutes "spam", or whether we need more guidelines in place to encourage better posting. it most likely won't be the last time either. usually it's a chance for people to air their grievances and frustrations and after a few pages of shouting at each other we all agree to try to behave better. or to use the ignore function i suppose, if we really can't reach a compromise.
     
  18. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    TBH you're just clutching at straws now with these types of comments.

    But eh, I'm glad there was consensus that the tag be both tagged JCC/senate. Seems the most sensible decision regarding things.
     
    Chewgumma likes this.
  19. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
    I can certainly relate to that kind of experience....
     
  20. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    She likes to play the victim. This is known.
     
    Chewgumma likes this.
  21. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    I don't really have much more to say about it that I haven't already said. Just keep in mind there are new users who come to this forum constantly. And reading a thread like this does indeed make it seem as if outsiders are not welcome.
     
    Princess_Tina likes this.
  22. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    And, you know, that's okay. People are allowed not to like each other. I frequently can't stand Vivec and have had him on ignore for years now (though I sometimes look at his posts anyway). I'm pretty sure Vivec dislikes me a lot as well. Life somehow goes on.
     
  23. Princess_Tina

    Princess_Tina Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    May 10, 2001
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
    Emperor Ferus likes this.
  24. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014

    ok then... a bit of a curveball of a response, but whatever.
     
  25. tom

    tom Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    or it could send the message that if our community has conflict we will try to work it out, and if there's a perception that outsiders are unwelcome we're willing to talk about it and try to figure it out and make it better, rather than let an unhealthy culture fester because talking about it might reveal that we're not perfect.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
    Diggy, CairnsTony, Coruscant and 5 others like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.