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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Can you be a right winger or a left winger

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by beezel26, Dec 22, 2013.

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  1. FatBurt

    FatBurt Sex Scarecrow Vanquisher star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    I'm tempted to link the "Derp" thread in JCC to this one.


    Same roundabout every time with preachy preachiness from the godsquad.
     
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  2. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Why can't women be "in authority" to "speak about the Word" while men "remain silent"?
     
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  3. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    I don't recall ever saying liberals were evil, but I don't agree with their core worldview, and that's no crime.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The "your" in question wasn't you.
     
  5. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I love how you didn't respond to any of my other points, or respond to the videos... it shows you have no idea how to respond.

    You're idol-worshipping, and your idol is the Bible. The Bible is not God. It's not perfect. Even if it does contain profound spiritual truths from God, it's been filtered through imperfect messengers.

    But even if you continue to mistakenly believe your church's cherry-picking interpretation, while somehow also believing it's 100% true in every literal way, then you should at least watch the videos and think about the Biblical passages that I am showing you. I'm trying to debate you on your own grounds, but you're still refusing to acknowledge most of my points. You can't cherry-pick an argument and expect to win. I've been here for this very debate for over 10 years, and you're not bringing up anything new that hasn't already been disproven years ago.
     
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  6. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    On the note of divine retribution, every event of that nature in the Bible adheres to a set pattern. God first warns the intended victims first, then a length of time passes for them to repent. Its only when they refuse that the punishment hits. God loves all people, but He is not soft on sin.
     
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  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Nope, I'd still rather be hated.
     
  8. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Exactly. And anakinfansince1983, the answer to your question should be obvious.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Apparently it isn't. Are you planning to answer it?
     
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  10. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Interesting phrasing, "victims."
     
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  11. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Oh, way to go. You call me a idol worshiper for standing on the truths that God set down accurately in the Bible through the hand of mortal men? I'll take that as a compliment.

    Even if Jesus said nothing about homosexuality (and He didn't) and even IF Paul was mistaken (which he is not), there is still the fact that in the Old Testament (which, though addressed to the Jews, still forms part of the Christian Bible), God specifically comdemns homosexuality. Are His words to Israel there not to be taken into account because they were not spoken to us and therefore we are under no obligation to follow the moral laws of the oT as we are not expected to follow the ceremonial laws?
     
  12. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Yes, his words to Israel aren't to be taken into account. They didn't need to be taken into account for circumcision.
     
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  13. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    What would you have preferred? I try to mix up various words that mean the same thing, so my writing isn't too repetitive.
     
  14. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    You really don't know your Bible, or your theology.

    Mark 7:1-23
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 7:1-23&version=NIV

    How do you judge what is moral law and what isn't?



    Again... watch this video
     
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  15. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
    Mat 19:5 and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
    Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."
    Mat 19:7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?"
    Mat 19:8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
    Mat 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
    Mat 19:10 The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry."
    Mat 19:11 But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.
    Mat 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

    And here's a cpoy/paste, since so many of you are still fixated on accusations of cherry picking with regard to the OT:

    I find it frustrating when I read or hear columnists, pundits, or journalists dismiss Christians as inconsistent because “they pick and choose which of the rules in the Bible to obey.” What I hear most often is “Christians ignore lots of Old Testament texts—about not eating raw meat or pork or shellfish, not executing people for breaking the Sabbath, not wearing garments woven with two kinds of material and so on. Then they condemn homosexuality. Aren’t you just picking and choosing what they want to believe from the Bible?”

    It is not that I expect everyone to have the capability of understanding that the whole Bible is about Jesus and God’s plan to redeem his people, but I vainly hope that one day someone will access their common sense (or at least talk to an informed theological advisor) before leveling the charge of inconsistency.

    First of all, let’s be clear that it’s not only the Old Testament that has proscriptions about homosexuality. The New Testament has plenty to say about it, as well. Even Jesus says, in his discussion of divorce in Matthew 19:3-12 that the original design of God was for one man and one woman to be united as one flesh, and failing that, (v. 12) persons should abstain from marriage and from sex.

    However, let’s get back to considering the larger issue of inconsistency regarding things mentioned in the OT that are no longer practiced by the New Testament people of God. Most Christians don’t know what to say when confronted about this. Here’s a short course on the relationship of the Old Testament to the New Testament:

    The Old Testament devotes a good amount of space to describing the various sacrifices that were to be offered in the tabernacle (and later temple) to atone for sin so that worshippers could approach a holy God. As part of that sacrificial system there was also a complex set of rules for ceremonial purity and cleanness. You could only approach God in worship if you ate certain foods and not others, wore certain forms of dress, refrained from touching a variety of objects, and so on. This vividly conveyed, over and over, that human beings are spiritually unclean and can’t go into God’s presence without purification.

    But even in the Old Testament, many writers hinted that the sacrifices and the temple worship regulations pointed forward to something beyond them. (cf. 1 Samuel 15:21-22; Psalm 50:12-15; 51:17; Hosea 6:6). When Christ appeared he declared all foods ‘clean’ (Mark 7:19) and he ignored the Old Testament clean laws in other ways, touching lepers and dead bodies.

    But the reason is made clear. When he died on the cross the veil in the temple was ripped through, showing that the need for the entire sacrificial system with all its clean laws had been done away with. Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for sin, and now Jesus makes us “clean.”

    The entire book of Hebrews explains that the Old Testament ceremonial laws were not so much abolished as fulfilled by Christ. Whenever we pray ‘in Jesus name’, we ‘have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus’ (Hebrews 10:19). It would, therefore, be deeply inconsistent with the teaching of the Bible as a whole if we were to continue to follow the ceremonial laws.

    The New Testament gives us further guidance about how to read the Old Testament. Paul makes it clear in places like Romans 13:8ff that the apostles understood the Old Testament moral law to still be binding on us. In short, the coming of Christ changed how we worship but not how we live. The moral law is an outline of God’s own character—his integrity, love, and faithfulness. And so all the Old Testament says about loving our neighbor, caring for the poor, generosity with our possessions, social relationships, and commitment to our family is still in force. The New Testament continues to forbid killing or committing adultery, and all the sex ethic of the Old Testament is re-stated throughout the New Testament (Matthew 5:27-30; 1 Corinthians 6:9-20; 1 Timothy 1:8-11.) If the New Testament has reaffirmed a commandment, then it is still in force for us today.

    Further, the New Testament explains another change between the Testaments. Sins continue to be sins—but the penalties change. In the Old Testament things like adultery or incest were punishable with civil sanctions like execution. This is because at that time God’s people existed in the form of a nation-state and so all sins had civil penalties.

    But in the New Testament the people of God are an assembly of churches all over the world, living under many different governments. The church is not a civil government, and so sins are dealt with by exhortation and, at worst, exclusion from membership. This is how a case of incest in the Corinthian church is dealt with by Paul (1 Corinthians 5:1ff. and 2 Corinthians 2:7-11.) Why this change? Under Christ, the gospel is not confined to a single nation—it has been released to go into all cultures and peoples.

    ...

    So where does this leave us? There are only two possibilities. If Christ is God, then this way of reading the Bible makes sense and is perfectly consistent with its premise. The other possibility is that you reject Christianity’s basic thesis—you don’t believe Jesus was the resurrected Son of God—and then the Bible is no sure guide for you about much of anything. But the one thing you can’t really say in fairness is that Christians are being inconsistent with their beliefs to accept the moral statements in the Old Testament while not practicing other ones.
     
  16. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Answer my question. Are the moral laws of the OT non applicable to us as the ceremonial laws are? What about the Ten Commandments?
     
  17. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    God doesn't ever stop loving anyone, even those who send themselves to hell through rebellion. He won't destroy any of us permanently, but His justice can't allow the unrepentant into His kingdom. Sin exists; its not just some term invented by man for things we don't like. God created this world, which means only He is allowed to set permanent rules...and we broke them. As the Creator of all, God would've been perfectly within His rights to condemn each and every one of us on principle...but instead, He offered us a way of redemption. If that's not love, I truly have no idea what is.
     
  18. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    Was that a Godasm or a Lordasm?
     
  19. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Not all of them are applicable, because not all were moral or true to begin with.

    How do you judge which ones to be moral laws?

    I really shouldn't be answering you at all, since you haven't been responding to all of my points for days now.

    Now watch and respond to this:
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    If the definition of "love" involves being drowned or set on fire for breaking rules--any rules--I'd rather be hated.
     
  21. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Christianity in a nutshell: worship a god that will save you from what that god will do to you if you don't worship him.

    No thanks. I will never, ever believe in a god unless it can be conclusively proven that that god actually exists. Until then, it is just a fiction that was invented by ancient men who feared death so much that they wanted a way to feel good about their inevitable end. But the actual truth is that there is no god, no devil, no heaven and no hell. When we die, we die. There is nothing else afterwards.
     
  22. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    That's not Christianity.
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/understanding-christianity-now-favorite-bible-verses.50007773/

    There are just Christians that give a bad reputation to Christianity as a whole, who have turned away from Jesus's message of love.
     
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  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I would have much less of a problem with Christians if they were all like Ghost , or several people I know in RL who would probably be labelled "not a real Christian" by the fundamentalists.
     
  24. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2009
    Christianity is not ultimately about punishment, but God's love manifested in Christ, who saved us from that by placing Himself as our substitute. Once we accept Him personally, our ticket to Heaven is paid...but its not just intellectual. "Faith that" is very different from "faith in", and being a Christian's all about the latter. For someone who's been redeemed, there's no splitting Christ from their life again; His love and grace becomes an inseparable part of us.
     
  25. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    I reject the idea that we are all born sinners and we need a blood sacrifice in order to be redeemed. The very concept of sin comes from the bible itself. Christianity is trying to sell you a cure to a disease that it gave you in the first place. I mean, would you thank a man who cut you and then sold you a Band-Aid?

    Furthermore, it has been proven that mankind is NOT descended from a single breeding pair. This means Adam and Eve never existed, which means there is no original sin, which means Jesus' death doesn't actually mean anything.
     
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