Lit Chaos, Madness and the nature of the Force

Another metaphysical, force related mystical thread by Yours Truly, Darth Invictus

So in Legends, the Netherworld of the Force has a specific section apparently intended for Sith Lords, and or darksiders(though its unclear if its for all evil people or just evil people tied to the force).

Now this is basically Star Wars hell. At least loosely considered. Sidious said he experienced madness and loneliness without end(though I would need a source on that but I remember the quote). Caedus says he is "in damnation".

And the Dark Underlord is hinted to be Xendor risen from chaos.

Given the nature of the force as we understand it-having been very much influenced by Taoism and Buddhism, over say a western Abrahamic religion like Christianity how does this square together? Metaphysically and philosophically?

The "main" netherworld from what we can gather isn't heaven-but a grey misty realm where those who preserve their individual identity dwell(if only then for a short time).

Is Chaos a place of punishment? If so that would imply the force or some even greater power is dealing out eternal justice, is the Force God on judgement day reading out the names and the Sith found sinners?

Or is it more psychological? In essence, a projected hell? Which torments and nature are reflective of the individual.

Is it some sort of purgatory? And that brings up the bigger question, is it permanent? If so, what does that say about the nature of the Netherworld and the Force? If not, if all eventually leave seeing the error of their ways presumably like Ajunta Pall, what does that mean? Is evil not eternal? Or is the Force inherently universalist?

Thoughts, Reflections, Ideas?

 

There's hell in both Buddhism and Taoism. So I see no problem. In Legends perhaps the Celestials act like some of the deities in the Taoist pantheon.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Hell as I understand it is basically a stage in reincarnation in Mayana Buddhism.

And SW doesn't have reincarnation(though I did read an article where someone claimed Legacy introduced the idea).

 

The way I see it, a Sith will experience the Netherworld transition as Chaos. It's not necessarily a "place" or a permanent state, but it's the experience of having their individual consciousness wrenched apart into the Oneness of the Force. It's essentially the same thing a Jedi would experience, but from the POV of someone clinging to the material world and to ego-self.

The more altruistic a person, the less ego attachment so the more peaceful the transition. For most people, there will be some pain. For someone that has learned to dissolve their ego-self before death it's the most peaceful of transitions... and in the case of Jedi, they are so detached from the ego and material self that their bodies literally dematerialize.

A Sith isn't like that at all, and in Sidious' specific case he's been scrambling to figure out how to remain in the material realm forever. Death sucks for him. Like really sucks. Because th ed very thing that is unthinkable to him, releasing self and becoming one with all, is happening whether he likes it or not.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Strangely that seems to line up fairly well with Plagueis "scientific" doubts of the concept.

Even if consciousness remains.

Though, that does bring up a few examples I mentioned.

Caedus says he is "in damnation" but seems relatively calm about it. Perhaps that's due to prolonging his life not really being a concern of his.

But what of the Dark Underlord? If he is Xendor that is?

 

Got nothing to add, just that this has been my take, as well: the Jedi and Sith are describing the same experience, it's just that to a Jedi it's a reward and to the Sith it's a punishment.

 

@Dawud786 said it perfectly, Sith and Jedi describe the same but given their different point of views judge it differently and therefore experience it different.

That much for heaven or hell, which is basically the same place depending on how you view it. Or as others may add, not just heaven or hell but life itself for one can live heaven on earth, or a hellish live. No need to push it into afterlife (or rebirth).

I too think there is no lack of reincarnation in Star Wars, it just had not been a prominent theme to date, like timetravel. It exists but is not a focus point of stories.

While the Jedi seeking to dissolve into nirvana sounds like the end of the reincarnation spiral, with beings as force attuned as Jedi or other Forceusers probably having had plenty of previous lifes already that opened them up as much to the Force, I do not think their Force power or midichlorian count can indicate how many previous lives they did have.

In that regard the luminous beings are we comment is also interesting in that it does not only refer to the soul or the transcending self that can shed the body. Pair this comment with "All the Jedi" from TROS and you reach the group-soul theory wherein souls are not individual things but part of soul families. Each soul in live consists of several pieces and parts it integrates over the course of life and therefore it grows with each life. Every soul you integrated in the past is a part of you kinda. Carlos Dorofati wrote about this best I think along others. Lack of integrating all parts of oneself, or other disruptive traumata can cause shizophrenia and other issues.

A Dyad also reinforces the idea of souls that belong together living in separate bodies. With the ST filled with notions of Vader/Anakin's soul being reincarnated into Rey and Kylo both given they are two halves of one coin, both have his skills and talents and power and without an Anakin Force Ghost in the ST, that may be because he was there all along within both of them. No wonder the lightsaber is drawn to Rey and Kylo to the Vader helmet. They both are SKYWALKER, Skywalker reborn in a Dyad. They are the Christ that died for humanity in ROTJ and returned once more as prophecised in another life, another body or two (while is lineage founded the Church / Jedi Order that went through Dark Times and middle ages).
Funn enough sidenote: For all Palpatine tried to bodyhop into a Skywalker... Anakin reincarnated himself into his Granddaughter (or both Palpatines choosen potential hosts with Ben and Rey) oneupping his old master

Back to reincarnation: Sith seek reincarnation without passing through the veiled door of death and forgetting past lives by employing bodyhopping. Artificial reincarnation. Jedi do it the natural way by becoming one with the Force until the Force decides to create a new life for them to inhabit for whatever purpose. Jedi neither fear nor try to escape the judgement of the Force. Yet some linger on after death as Ghosts to help others or in selfconstructed purgatory to work up the past life before moving on into a future one through the Force.

Revivification via a cult bringing back long dead Sith Lords or else is another interesting matter, for the Force is timeless. If a Forceghost lingers on for minutes or decades is the same to the Force. Same for a Sith in selfimposed purgatory, for the Force and him it may seem like blink and you are one with the Force, for others in the gffa when channelling him/her it seems as if even centuries after the death he still is in purgatory. Percieving a timeless Force from a not timeless point of view is an interesting matter of its own. One might even say, even a dead Sith is one with the Force if they liked it or not. But when brought back to life they are their old selfs for the Force has one more game to play with them taking the bad guy part.

As for Gods and Choosen Ones, aka children of the God(s)... no matter how powerful and godly some beings are, the Force trumps all (unlike in Supernatural Encounters).

 

Oh, I hope not. If reincarnation DOES exist in Star Wars then I'll be even more annoyed they didn't break it out for the ST.

Reframing the Skywalker Saga as "how the GFFA's avatar cycle began"? Yus plz.

(Or the "Dashavatara in space", if you prefer)

 

The original sin was when the Prime Jedi intended to live forever and became the first bodyhopper. He had no bad intent like Sith might with it, yet he paved the way for others to do like him and with more and more sinister intents down the line.

What if they hoped for an utopian afterlife heaven but when learning reincarnation is a thing, could not bear to be thrown back into life after life again and again. Longing for union with the Force finally in nirvana they sought shortcuts to end the cycles and figured the only way to stop the wheel is to cheat death and live forever as they in life grew to become the Force (Nihilus/Traya/Kreia style?).

In a way they broke it out for the ST but chickend out of actually using the word... but Palpatine, Rey and Ben as dyad all screams it. Heck even broomboy did after Luke died. Farmboy life for life... dusting crops or just dusting with a broom! Pity TROS was no Search for Spock style movie where they need to find broomboy to get Luke back .
Maybe Broomboy will fly his broom to hogwarts instead then... or become a Witcher.

Going all out now: What if Rey was Palpatine reborn as Ben was Anakin reborn? Then the ST tells the redemption of Palpatine in his next life after ROTJ death! And likewise that of Vader in Ben. Only a pity the Sith cultists brought back the dead Emperors body zombie style to face off and try to reunite with his reborn redeemed spirit!

 

This part when combined with what happens to Vader just tell us that the whole afterlife part is a complete mess that doesn´t make any sense:

Over twenty years of evil, including massacring children and being complictic in more than one genoice, then one act of good while already dying earns Vader apparently instant redemption and he stands there with a **** eating grin as a ghost

Less than one year of evil and with the expection of a few murders not doing anything worse than Franklyn D Roosevelt did in WW2(mass bombardment to break the enemy spirit and putting enemy minorities in interment camps) and a true sacrfice in the moment of potential victory earns Jacen damnation.

 

You are looking at it from the wrong angle. Why do you think there is a difference between "times served" by Jacen or Anakin? As I noted above, the Force is timeless (as stated inuniverse often enough). Looking and describing it from a not timeless world as ours may make it look as if it is inconsistent while in fact it is not. For the Force it does not matter if Vader or Jacen spend a blink or an eternity damned and in purgatory, only for us it does. Why does the Force then not show them redeemed or still damned but so different? Because the Force has a will and with every ghost or interaction or vision it grants, it does that based on its intention. If its intention is requiring us to see something we consider good or bad that will happen and be what we experience, so long it pushes us to do whatever the Force intends us to do.

 

I doubt it. Xendor and his group were legitimately not evil. It was the Jedi that were proven dogmatic to the point of 'exterminating heretics' that were the true villains. Unless we're saying he's some kind of vengeful spirit, it could make sense.

 

Most of what we know about them comes from Arden Lyn, who is kind of evil.

 

Give her some credit, she was reawakened to life by a Sith and had to serve him... he may have twisted her before you met her.

 

One was repentant and the other wasnt?

Jacen died unrepentant. Vader died having done repentance. Ben Solo died having done repentance.

One good act is one thing. Jacen could have died doing one good act, but had zero regrets or self reflection about the wicked things he'd done and it wouldn't be a moment of redemption. Looking at his Canon analogue, Ben objectively repented and turned his back on the dark side and First Order and willingly gave his life to save another in service of his mother's cause.

It's the penitent mindset that makes the difference.

None of which is to say any of them might be right with galactic society. Anakin and Ben are right with the Force.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Jacen gave his life to save Tenel Ka and Allana... he gave up his life, his cause and his entire mission to do it.

 

Personally on looking at the context of that conversation, Ben is basically throwing out a teenage insult “have a peaceful...whatever” and Jacen replies “damnation” but I forgot if he says “in” or not.

It could be read as Jacen just filling in what Ben either didn’t have the words or couldn’t bring himself to say.

Basically Jacen was just responding to Ben throwing shade by filling in the blank subject.

Ben was basically being sarcastic or spiteful-and Jacen obliged him by giving him a word to express his feelings.

And Beyond Shadows isn’t really Chaos. I’ve heard it described as a lagoon or harbor of sorts within the broader Netherworld.

As for the dark underlord, quoting Wookieepedia,

“
During this time, the origins of the Dark Underlord remained an enigma, his true nature shrouded behind a cloud of speculation and Sith folklore. One popular theory tied his emergence to the actions of a lone Sith Acolyte, who allegedly summoned the Underlord from the dark, netherworldly realm of Chaos. Another rumor claimed that the Dark Underlord was none other than the reincarnated ghost of Xendor,[2] a powerful darksider who—thousands of yearsearlier—fought during the First Great Schism of the peacekeeping Jedi Order.[1]

Basically his identity and origin are mysterious, but he’s hinted to be something overtly supernatural.

If he was Xendor, or some other spirit, then what does that say about the nature of Chaos?

 

Lets not forget Jacen might have found peace and returned to making jokes and the damnation line is him kidding with Ben knowing Ben expects such.

Regarding the Dark Underlord, why "Under"-lord? Under what? Sounds like he himself is submissive to a higher entity (like the Father of Shadows, Abeloth or another eldritch Sith God).

He could be Valkorion even, or if the lineage of Sith that are ALL the Sith is longer than Bane, it could be any Sith of which Xendor is just a minor part then.

I am more inclinded to think it is someone claiming to be Xendor and using his name for he became legend and his name may hold some sway. So a contemporary of Xendor perhaps.

 

Perhaps. Given the rumor and mystery around him-I lean towards him having an overtly supernatural or ghostly identity.

I think the conversation in Abyss should get more scrutiny in terms of context and word choice than it gets.

I don't recall Jacen explicitly saying "I am in damnation".

It's more a response to Ben's sarcastic RIP statement.

Though in Apocalypse Caedus does basically say "why do you blame the Sith Lord for all your problems".

Then again, he transforms into Jacen when addressed as Jacen.

Personally I am not even sure Beyond Shadows is an accurate representation of what is going on in the Netherworld.

 

I think the line is

Ben: "Have a peacefull... whatever."
Jacen: "Damnation"

Could be a sarcastic quip I guess, or its more a hell of his own guilt as he in contrast to Vader and Kylo is able to be self aware and realizes one decent act doesn´t make up all the bad ones. That´s at least my interpretation.

 

It sort of reads like, Jacen giving Ben the idea he already had and/or wanted.

But its not as cut and dry as people sometime read it as.

 

Yes....

and no.


I never got the impression from that scene that he'd turned his back on the cause of "Uniting The Galaxy With The Power of the Dark Side" - it was just that the cause of Saving Allana's Life temporarily took precedence over it.


No "I was wrong to murder Nelani, work with Lumiya, etc. etc" seemed to be going through his head IMO.

 

Yeah, I never got the sense that Jacen had remorse for all he'd done to that point or recognized that what he did was fundamentally wrong.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Which brings up a broader question.

Is moral judgement in the SW universe based on some sort of karma, or is it personal and scaled like in western theology?