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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Christopher Columbus - legacy and separating facts from fiction

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Jun 26, 2021.

  1. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I'd assume the good Columbus did was that his discovery of the Americas led to the foundation of the United States, and eventually the establishment of liberal democracy as the dominant political system around the world. Well, this is obviously going into counterfactuals, but what's to say that colonies in the Americas were really necessary for this to happen, and that democracy couldn't have arisen under different circumstances? Not to mention, Columbus clearly wasn't acting with this goal in mind.
     
  2. calcmandan

    calcmandan Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Would your opinion be softer of he wasn't white or are you just racist? I couldn't imagine another reason why you'd bring up his skin color.

    Name calling on historical figures doesn't further your point - just appears ignorant.

    There is plenty of reason to celebrate, but I suppose revisionist history is popular these days. The truth is forgotten like the burned books of nazi Germany.

    Here is a name that'll really tick you off: Amerigo Vespucci

    Sent from my SM-T307U using Tapatalk
     
  3. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011

    The colonies in America were not necessary for that to happen, and they were established by the English, which Columbus wasn’t, and Columbus never set foot in the United States.

    The French established a liberal democracy after the Revolution so it certainly could happen, and while theirs had to go through several Republic stages, their government is in less danger of being taken over by fascist alt-righters today than the US government is, so they established a liberal democracy more correctly.

    Plus the United States is not a democracy anyway.
     
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  4. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011


    Firstly, it is true that historical figures should be judged in their historical context. Columbus was regarded as brutal and barbaric even by his contemporaries.

    Secondly, historical events which result in the death and destruction of so many innocent people shouldn’t be celebrated, even if they resulted in what you consider to be the modern world. Not only don’t we know what would have happened had contact been handled differently, but it’s painful for those populations which suffered. It should at most be remembered - not celebrated.


    Ummm…
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  5. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I would say the U.S. was a flawed democracy, but at the time of its founding it was better than a lot of other political systems, and it was a stepping stone towards a more democratic world. We're refusing to fix the country's flaws here in the present day, but that's another discussion. And yeah, it's entirely possible that history could have taken a different course...and even if the U.S. were a paragon of democratic virtue today, it wouldn't justify the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the indigenous people over a century ago.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  6. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Im not justifying any atrocities. But Alpha-Red made a good point about taking what was learned since the deed is done and we cannot bring these people back or alter history. So, if lives are saved due to whats been learned, even through a heinous deed, I dont have a problem with it overall. The goal of course should be to learn from those acts and ensure they never happen again.

    A fair point - and its possible we wouldnt be here if not for what happened. Of course it might have still happened. But, history is history and the guy did kickstart global trade, connecting with other peoples, introducing new sources of foods, spices, livestock, commerce, etc, etc. That has to be viewed as good, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  7. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Which is still ignoring that when you were asked what the "good stuff" was, you listed the devastation of the indigenous peoples as part of your answer of what was "good stuff".



    If you can't imagine another reason why skin color was brought up, you have a very limited imagination. Given how long people would associate Columbus as the first person to discover America, the inclusion of skin color exists as a clear suggestion of what criteria is being used as part of 'first'.


    You didn't give reasons to celebrate Columbus, nor did you explain any truth being forgotten here. It's particularly rich given how often the people who want to say we should care about Columbus act as though his voyage disproved the earth was flat or anything of that nature. So they're dealing in revisionist history from the start.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  8. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    You want your cake and to eat it. Either the atrocities are unconscionable or you don’t have a problem with them ‘overall.’ You can’t have both.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  9. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    No - you can acknowledge the atrocities and ensure they never happen again. But that doesnt mean you cannot also recognize & deploy some things that were learned from them. Lets make this clear: My comment about "no problem overall" was strictly pertaining to using knowledge gained that can benefit other people. Lets be very clear on that. I was NOT implying nor saying that Im OK with the atrocities. Not at all so please scratch that idea.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  10. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    So... the "good stuff" you were referring to was "committed horrible atrocities which we can learn valuable lessons from to not commit horrible atrocities in the future".
    ... which, by your own admission, wasn't even the case until recently. Also, there's nowhere left on Earth to explore with indigeous people, so unless, say, the moon has people living on it, it's not really a lesson that has any practical purpose, is it?
     
  11. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    You don't need to worry about implications, your answer for what the "good stuff" was was to include the devastation of the indigenous peoples. You've made it quite clear you're a fan of the atrocities as a default stance.
     
  12. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    I'm going to have to say that from what I've heard, the bad outweighs the good. Sure, history is history, and nobody is advocating that it should be wiped away. But we do need to ask, does this guy really deserve to be treated as a hero?
     
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  13. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Hero? No - thats overkill even if you do just look at the good items. The Holiday itself does seem odd now that I think about it. He didnt really do anything super spectacular like some other individuals that get a Holiday. Maybe time to get rid of the Holiday then. Wifey and the Feds lose a paid day off but oh well, too bad for them. :)
     
  14. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Glad we agree that we don’t have to feel guilty about living in the modern world but that we should definitely not celebrate the atrocities which got us here, including the man named Columbus.
     
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  15. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Yes, we all know your dislike of government workers is only outmatched by that of college professors, but -as it has been made abundantly clear, it would just become "Indigenous People's Day".
    As lowbacca would say, that's just common sense.
    Oh right, got to add one of these! :)
     
  16. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Yeah we can agree on that. Look - lets be honest: World History for basically any nation that reached a high level of power and sustainability certainly has blood on their hands and in their history. The strong and advanced push out the weaker and less advanced. Been like that forever. Is it fair? Not for the people that lost, no. We can only appreciate what we have and hopefully get to a point where conquering is NOT how new civilizations are discovered/created. Something like that. :)
     
  17. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    “Revisionist history” is a pretty popular talking point, but there really was never anything historic about the carefully constructed Columbus myth to begin with. The brave explorer the proved the earth was round that people celebrate never actually existed, the real life Columbus has about as much to do with that guy as St Nicholas has to do with the fat red suited guy at the North Pole.

    You aren’t celebrating anything real, you are celebrating fiction, and it’s a fiction that attempts to erase a bunch of really awful things that actually happened and that is harmful to a whole lot of people, so maybe it’s time we as a society grow up and stop doing that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  18. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    And we've reached the predictable "everyone did it" answer, straight out of the Tucker Carlson playbook.
    Let's cut to the chase:
    1) Statues of a person striking a heroic pose or looking thoughtful aren't a history lesson. Those are memorials celebrating that person. If that person shouldn't be celebrated, it should be removed. History isn't being erased.
    2) correcting revisionist history isn't revisionist history itself. It's actual history.
    3) As far as Italian-Americans go, there are a thousand other Italians much more worthy of celebration and statues.
     
  19. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Anyways, since no one seems to be discussing the video and instead derailed by QGM again… the thing with the video is that it’s a more nuanced take. Columbus wasn’t some heroic exploring do-gooder. He ushered in the age of colonialism, which is bad.

    But as the video explained, we went from some out of context myths on how he’s a hero to some out of context myths on how he’s a Hitler-level Nazi genocidal monster full of stupidity. Columbus led to the exchange of disease which wiped out so much of the indigenous people. But literally anyone from main Europe at the time that replaced him and led to prolonged exposure and migration to the Americas would have caused that. That the evidence is while he was no moral exemplar, that he was punished and replaced for not being strict enough with the natives, and how some historians lumped in his replacements with him, which isn’t fair. And while he didn’t “discover” mainland US for the European mainstream of the time, he did go beyond the Bahamas to South America and the tip of North America. But anyways. So while I do NOT think he should be celebrated, he was a lot more nuanced. He did morally bad stuff, but he wasn’t the complete monster he’s sometimes made out to be. And that shouldn’t be the symbol and avatar of all colonialism that followed, just responsible for his own actions.

    So I wanted to get into the historical evidence of the claims in the video, see if they’re disputed. And just push beyond the binary “he was either a saintly hero or a demonic monster” black-or-white narratives. Don’t get me wrong, he’s still overall not a good person, but it’s more nuanced than to say he was absolute evil and if it wasn’t for him and his bad example then nothing bad would ever have happened when Europe and the American first made sustained contact within the past 600 years.

    So, going beyond the myths on both sides, what is he actually responsible for? Not colonialism. Not Cortez. Columbus.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
  20. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    As to the video, as was said earlier "An article would have been preferable, as at least then one can move at their own pace."


    I will say that I think there's an element of culpability on the disease thing that really presupposes a greater understanding of infectious diseases than it seems like Columbus would've had. So while the action of discovery clearly had negative consequences for people in the Americas and is a big strike against being a positive influence, that one doesn't really seem like a basis for moral assessment, as such, although I see that happen.
     
  21. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Hey, I want to discuss that video. I haven't been in these forums for a while, but I actually would like to say few things about the video on the first page.

    I know this YouTuber. He made a video about historical revisionism in Japan that I liked.

    Anyway, about the video. I thought it was garbage. It’s poorly researched, full of revisionist rhetoric (ironically), hardly presents any actual academic source, and, seriously, Google Translator?

    Three claims he makes in the first half of the video that stood out to me.

    1. Columbus was just going by what most “any educated person” of that time knew.

    No, no, he wasn’t. Most “educated people” of that time, in Portugal and Castilla, rejected the backward maps of Toscanalli and Behaim. We had long-established “Juntas” (societies) of mathematicians and other scientists who had already figured out where Asia was.KB keeps bringing Toscanalli and others like they were ****ing the Google Maps-sensei of the time, which they weren't.

    Columbus had traveled with Portuguese explorers, hanged out with Portuguese nobility, and had access to updated scientific theories that blatantly disproved his fantasy ideas. He just seemingly chose to ignore it.

    2. He said, when Columbus bumped into some land in the middle of the Atlantic, “He didn’t think he was in China, he didn’t think he was in India, he thought he was in somewhere new.”

    Columbus literally said he found some islands near Ganges in the Indian sea in his first voyage letter to Fernando and Isabel of Castilla. Sure he thought he was near “Cipangu”/Japan, in the Indies. He eventually found out he was not in the Indies, but not before writing his share of letters where he called the natives "Indians".

    3. The translations of Columbus quotes are not correct (except, they are).

    He seems to have an issue with peer-reviewed, academically accepted English translations of old Spanish transcripts, instead preferring trusting the wacky sentences he gets from pasting obsolete Spanish text onto Google Translator.

    I mean, this quote. “I can conquer them with 50 men as I please.” He shows the Spanish, which reads “porq̃ con çinqueta hobres los terna todos sojuzgados; y les hara hazer todo lo q quisere”, which literally means what that English translation said. But he says he doesn’t, because that’s not what his genius inferred from Google Translator.

    I don't have a solid knowledge of American history and I'm too lazy to fact-check everything he says in the second half of the video. So I searched on Youtube for a response video, and I found one!

    So here is BadEmpanada's video response. It's a pretty good one. At the very least, BE knows how to do research better, and makes a good case for Columbus was a Complete Monster.




    Yeah, well. Is there any evidence that he was not a complete monster? Did he fund a school for poor children or something? Honest question.

    I can tell you that the brutality and atrocities committed during voyages from the 16th century onwards by Portuguese and Spanish explorers are quite well documented. Contemporary criticism against the practice of slavery, the abhorrent treatment of foreigners and indigenous people, is also well documented.

    Some historical figures – that may be regarded as heroes now – also had a pretty bad reputation even back then. Columbus was one of them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  22. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    It’s true that the decimation of the native population via disease would have happened anyway no matter what. But the slavery didn’t need to happen.
     
  23. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    The first people he met were, in his owns words, peaceful and helpful and generous an very non-violent. he noted in his own words they would be easy to enslave and he brought 9-10 year old girls into sexual slavery. I don't think there is anything to be celebrated about this man.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    …and the decimation of the native population via disease did not need to happen if Columbus, Cortez, Pizarro, and other such people had not decided they had a right to come to the Americas and stayed, demanding that the native people adopt European culture.
     
  25. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Not in regards to Columbus, but just a general comment on Old World contact with the Americas overall. It is very true that germ theory and immunology were not well-developed enough for their to be too much intentionality in the whole disease issue. But the potential excuse is much diminished by the fact that so many colonizers so openly reveled in what was happening. If you include long celebratory passages about how infections are killing everyone, you can't later claim that you shouldn't be criticized.