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Cliché Fan Fiction Elements

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Lady_Moonbeam, Apr 18, 2003.

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  1. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Cliched fan fiction elements-

    I would have to say - making the SW characters act completely out of character. Obi-Wan as the perfect Padawan or Qui-Gon always being an ogre come to mind immediately. Neither is completely one or the other. However, since some characters are so cliched, it is quite refreshing when a story comes along that turns the cliche inside out!


    As for the telepathy issue, I'd have to respectfully disagree. I thought about it long and very carefully before I had my characters use telepathy (sparingly). To me, it looked as though Luke and Vader were having a real conversation at the end of TESB. Sorry, that means telepathy (IMHO)- even if it only shows up in highly stressful situations.

    Another cliche that I have real problems with is the whole bond thing. Training bonds, soul bonds, life bonds. Where did that come from? Sounds nice but...don't think so.

    And Jane - love the idea of Obi-Wan getting interested in medicine and asking all kinds of questions. Great plot...someone should do that.

    I don't know if I read it somewhere or it just came up in conversation but the thought of Obi-Wan always going into the bacta and becoming addicted to it was an interesting plot bunny as well!

    Anyway, just my thoughts...
     
  2. obaona

    obaona Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2002
    I would have to say - making the SW characters act completely out of character. Obi-Wan as the perfect Padawan or Qui-Gon always being an ogre come to mind immediately. Neither is completely one or the other. However, since some characters are so cliched, it is quite refreshing when a story comes along that turns the cliche inside out!

    I agree on that completely. How not to do that? Hmmm. ;) I personally try to not only see the faults of a character, but the good sides. Like, with that example of perfect Obi-Wan, remember Melida/Daan? He thought he was wiser than Qui-Gon (which is actually a very typical teenager thing). And Qui-Gon could be oblivious, yes, but take Anakin in TPM - he comforted the kid, and did something foolish and reckless to free him.

    Does that make any sense? :p
     
  3. bobilll

    bobilll Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2002
    As far as writing children, I think that there are children who are mature, not because of their age, but because of their experience. If you make a smart kid be really mature because he/she happens to know their times tables early, that's one thing, but a kid who was maybe abused for a long time, or neglected, might act more mature. yoou're right, a 3yr old probably wouldn't save the day, but a kid could be more mature, if environment allowed.

    the most annoying thing by far is a Mary Sue or Gary Stu. I don't think this is a flame, since this is something most writers stay away from. I guess I fall victem to it also, but I can't stand reading it.

    And telepathy... depends on how it's used. if it's just a way to save a charector, that's annoying. If it's there to prove a bond, that's cool. Although there are so many master-padawan bonds. I agree, they should be close only because they spend so much time together. The bond idea is cool, but overused.

    Another annoying thing- quoting repeatedly. This is something I did a lot, but when I reread my work, I even make myself annoyed. Quoting is cool, but there gets to be a point where the work is hardly original anymore.
     
  4. Mistress_Renata

    Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2000
    My number one main beef with adorable, precocious kids is that they're usually in it for the "cuteness" factor, not because it makes any sense for them to be in the plot line. (Alas, Yub-Yub, I confess I HATE the "tormenting the adults" subplot lines! :) )

    Anakin (in TPM) while I dislike his character "in general" (I mean, he ends up as Vader! :D )was not bad as a child character. He was smart and precocious, yes, he wanted to be noticed (like many kids that age I know, always eager for the attention of a grownup), he DID get himself in trouble, but he tried to follow Qui-Gon's orders ("Stay in that cockpit!") and he did react almost exactly the way you could picture a nine-year old reacting in a similiar situation. I do kind of wince that he saved the day at the age of nine, but I suppose the Great Flannel-Shirted One didn't have much of a choice. Or another good example might be Ender's Game. I actually hated the book, but I give Card credit for making kids in a SF situation reasonably realistic.

    It's a fine line. In real life, kids generally AREN'T playing the central heroic roles in serious situations, though they can be important in smaller ways (like the Jewish children who helped smuggle food to their families under the Nazi regime, or the Danish kids who helped the Resistance by carrying messages).

    There are so many examples of BADLY done precocious kids (and I'm actually thinking of professional writers, TV shows & movies, not of any specific stories here). The entire final season of Battlestar Galactica, if anyone remembers that... shudder! :p

    So...how to break the "precocious child" mode?

    How about using an unprecocious child? Could there be a child hero who is only average, gets tongue-tied around adults, wants to be the center of attention but is regarded as annoying rather than adorable? Throws temper tantrums, gets whiny and cranky, picks his nose, is a total klutz... I dunno. Not all at the same time, but maybe for every adorable precocious trait give the character one sort of obnoxious one! :D And just once I'd love to see one of the adorable precocious children punished for their hijinks. "You disobeyed me, Mary Sue, but you saved the lives of seven million people, and by nearly getting killed you made me realize how much you mean to me... but you're still grounded for six weeks, can't visit with your friends or use the commlink, can't leave the house alone, and have to wash the dishes and empty the trash for the next three months. And you can't come with me on the next three missions either." :)

    And while we're at it... what IS it about redheads? How is it that over half the female characters in fanfic have red hair, spectacular figures and a lot of sass? I think we need more brunettes and a few blondes! LOL! :D While I'm at it, some feisty older women and maybe a few overweight characters as well!

    Maybe we should start a thread under fiction called "The Laboratory." We can write scenes or vignettes, experimenting with some of these cliche ideas and explaining what we're trying out. Not that they're intended to be a story, just an exercise in writing ... description, action, anti-cliche, point of view... dunno. We'd have to figure out which to put it on.

    Yes, right, I'll shut up now... :D
     
  5. Lady_Moonbeam

    Lady_Moonbeam Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2002
    The Laboratory is a good idea to pair this one, Renata--I'm with you on that one. It would be good practice and personally, I'd love to participate, if you want to start it. I like the opinions thrown out so far on the child heroes, particularly the one annoying trait for every good trait.

    How many of you have good examples of children in fan fic that we could link to? I thought that Bali Tiro in red rose knight's An Uncertain Path and it's sequels was done very well, and I'd agree that Denilee is a very well portrayed, also.

    In regular novels, I thought that Lord of the Flies and Ender's Game did a very good job with a child's mentality, and so did, to some extent, Something Wicked This Way Comes.

    I think that one of the keys to writing children is to not make them angelic. Children can be cruel, and have fits of petty anger. They don't forgive instantly, some of them hold grudges and can still be bitter about some things.
     
  6. dianethx

    dianethx Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2002
    The use of children in fan fic is always problematical, especially if the person writing it has no experience with children of that age. Mistress_Renata brought up a good point about children that have real characteristics. I thought JaneJinn's Walk before You Run (in the Archives) did an excellent job of showing an older child with some personality quirks that kept getting her into trouble.
    However, writing younger children is hard and takes a fine control to do them justice without resorting to teeth-clenching cuteness. And I agree that they should only be there to move the plot along! I'm currently working on a fic that has a 4 year old in it - yes, he is cute sometimes but he's only in the few scenes that he needs to be in and he is there to spark confrontations between the adults.


    As for the red-hair syndrome in fan fic, I have fallen to that as well. My only excuse is that I love red hair and wish I didn't have to resort to a bottle to get that color! However, sometimes, I'm sure that people are trying to tie in their characters with Mara Jade or Obi-Wan, both with red hair.

    The idea of a laboratory sounds interesting. I assume that it would be paragraphs, discussions of character motivation, that sort of thing...
     
  7. Jane Jinn

    Jane Jinn Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2000
    And while we're at it... what IS it about redheads? How is it that over half the female characters in fanfic have red hair, spectacular figures and a lot of sass? I think we need more brunettes and a few blondes! LOL! grin.gif While I'm at it, some feisty older women and maybe a few overweight characters as well!

    Hear, hear! That reminds me, I really like Hai Gan's character Gunner from The Lion Sleeps Tonight -- she's a short, dumpy Wookiee and does not have red fur. But in general, yes, we need less red hair and fewer spectacular figures. We need more brunettes and overweight characters. We need more 'real' people with real physical characteristics.

    Maybe we should start a thread under fiction called "The Laboratory." We can write scenes or vignettes, experimenting with some of these cliche ideas and explaining what we're trying out. Not that they're intended to be a story, just an exercise in writing ... description, action, anti-cliche, point of view... dunno. We'd have to figure out which to put it on.

    That'd be good, I'd like that. Let's see how successful Mara Jade would be as a middle-aged, overweight, not drop-dead beautiful, brunette Emperor's Hand ... that could be an interesting exercise.

    Edit: Two people have mentioned Walk Before You Run so here's the link.
     
  8. Kit'

    Kit' Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    The Laboratory sounds excellant :)

    I can think of few stories that actually involve small child characters. My own character Caelum is one, and I can think of Jane's character from "Walk before you run" (which was down right cool!), Gryph Grin's girl character from "When a Child Cries out in the night" as well as Mistress Renata's famous Trent.

    The three last characters I listed are excellant and give perfect characteristics to the child characters within.

    Kithera
     
  9. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    << Is on the verge of serious exaustion so I'll cut to the point:

    Two Childeren in fan fic,


    Longer story

    Childern of Circumstance by Geo3. "Bale" who is an OC is a lovely character.

    Short story

    Bed Blanket Lawn Party

    Pooja Naberrie by me.


     
  10. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999
    And while we're at it... what IS it about redheads? How is it that over half the female characters in fanfic have red hair, spectacular figures and a lot of sass?


    My guess is that since most women aren't redheads, that having "flaming red hair" makes the character stand out in a crowd.


    It's not just fanfic, comics also have an over-abundance of redheads.
     
  11. Melyanna

    Melyanna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2001
    You're probably right, Herman. I have red hair (though admittedly not of the red-gold or flaming variety ;) ), and a lot of people say I stand out because of that.

    Actually, it's more like "I saw you five blocks away from me today - I recognized you by your hair!" :p

    Mel
     
  12. AlrikFassbauer

    AlrikFassbauer Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2003
    Excuse me, but while reading your thread i stumbled upon some words / expressions which are new for me.

    What does "Mary-Sue" stand for (initial posting) ?

    What does "Obidala" stand for ?

    Finally, is there any explanation thread apart from the FAQ about these aconyms / whatevers ?

    About clichés : I've already made up my own:

    I always tried *not* to show great heroes in my writings, that I tend to show only "underdogs" and emotionally unstable people. I'll have to stop this, I think. ;)
     
  13. Lady_Moonbeam

    Lady_Moonbeam Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2002
    "Mary Sue" is a generic term for an original character that seems to be perfect, with no flaws, and is generally irritating to read.

    "Obidala" is the name for the romantic pairing of Obi-Wan and Amidala in fan fiction.

    The Force.net's fan fiction lexicon holds most of the acronyms and terms commonly used.
     
  14. Mistress_Renata

    Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2000
    The only glitch with the Laboratory is I can't figure out where it would fit, now that the Forums are all split up.

    What other cliches does anyone want to discuss? Folks have mentioned a few... Are there any that people have problems with? Do we REALLY want to confront the dreaded "Mary Sue?" :eek:

    (Thanks for the compliment, Kit! [face_blush] )

    And HAPPY EASTER, everyone! I hope the plot bunny--err, Easter bunny was good to you all. :D
     
  15. Melyanna

    Melyanna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2001
    Since this is primarily for test and experiment pieces, it would probably fit quite nicely right in here. Kit can and should correct me, though. ;)

    Why not take a clichéd "unusual" character trait and create a setting where that's the norm? For instance, have a planet where everyone has bright red hair, thus making it very difficult for brunettes and blondes to blend in. See what you can do by taking something we consider unusual and making it perfectly normal.
     
  16. BlindMan

    BlindMan Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2001
    Interesting thread; giving me some good grist for Wink Blasterburn... :p

    As far as little things that nag me (and no offense intended to anyone):

    Crossovers--I find the idea of two completely separate, unrelated "realities" crossing over with each other to be inherently...goofy. If it's played for laughs, that's fine, but I just can't get into a *serious* crossover...

    Earth slang--"Hearing" a character spout some modern-day colloquialism just yanks me right out of a tale. (At least one pro writer for the EU is guilty of this as well. It works in the context of parody, but not in a serious story...

    Star Wars meets Earth--I suppose this could be considered part of the Crossovers section, but this sub-genre makes the *least* sense to me. Too much like Galactica 1980 (Yeah, I remember it too, Mistress Renata. Those flying motorcycles were kind of cool, though... :) )

    Creating new Force powers to suit the need of the story--"Master, we're trapped in this impenetrable cell! What do we do?!"..."Calm yourself, padawan. We'll just use our Force Phasing ability and walk right through these walls."..."Brilliant, Master!"

    And I'm not sure if this is really a cliche, (it was probably just some writing challenge that some people took on) but...there seem to be an awful lot of characters making each other's beds lately. ;) What's up with that?


    :) Blind Man

     
  17. Kit'

    Kit' Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    You're right Mely. I'd say that it should fit right in here. If people were extremely worried then I'd say do it like the FanFic challenge and post your stories in the board to which they belong and put the link up. However, considering some of these are going to probably be less then a page, I'd say start the thread in here and let people post the short ones in the thread and link to the longer ones.

    I'm PM JG and A_S though and chat to them about it first.

    Kithera
     
  18. bobilll

    bobilll Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2002
    Ooooh, I like the idea of a Labrotory here!

    just out of curiousity, why do women ALWAYS have long hair, and kids who aren't neccessarly young enough to be considered cliche, are always small for their age to make up for it? I do that sometimes, yet it bothers me...

    Another thing is when you've got a "good girl" and a "bad girl" who hate each other, and for some reason the "good girl" always wins at the end (at pie eating contests, every single sports game, or fights over boys, whatever). It's a cool plot if the whole story was revolved around one important contest, but when there are fifty trivial such kinds of contests... In a way, Harry Potter kind of does that. I mean, I know he's a special wizard, but does he really have to pick up on flying so quickly? shouldn't he fall on his face a few times? And shouldn't he lose a few matches against Draco, just for the realistic taste?
     
  19. Lady_Moonbeam

    Lady_Moonbeam Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2002
    I'm really excited about the idea of the Laboratory. It sounds like it would be excellent to work in tandem with this thread, or it could just work independently.

    I think we've had some really good responses given out on the "child hero" theme. The general consensus seems to be that the writer of children should study children before writing them, and to have the child, like any other protagonist, not pick up everything automatically.

    Should we broach a new topic soon, or continue for a little longer on the children? I'm open to new topics been thrown out, if anyone has any ideas. Personally, one of the subjects I'd like to discuss (eventually) is where an author chooses their AU to begin, if it's a "What if" type, and consider the backgrounds.
     
  20. Knight-Ander

    Knight-Ander Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2002
    I spent part of my day today in the prescence of a 2 year-old, a 4 year-old (my self-chosen nemesis for the afternoon :p ), a 7 year-old (I think), an 8 year-old, and a 10 year-old.

    Thanks to the discussion on this thread, I paid closer attention to their mannerisms and bavior than I normally would have. :D
     
  21. Knight-Ander

    Knight-Ander Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2002
    one of the subjects I'd like to discuss (eventually) is where an author chooses their AU to begin, if it's a "What if" type, and consider the backgrounds.

    Can you explain that a little more, Moonbeam. I'm unsure about what you mean by "backgrounds."
     
  22. Lady_Moonbeam

    Lady_Moonbeam Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 4, 2002
    Well, there are a lot of AUs stemming from the premise that Qui-Gon survived the battle on Naboo, because it was a major turning point in Obi-Wan's life--the death of his Master. Many of the AU premises begin by changing one of the main events to the exact opposite of what actually happened--Qui-Gon survived, Luke turned to the Dark Side, Vader/Anakin managed to live, etc.

    My thought was something along the lines of discussing why these AU points are so popular, how to realize if your story isn't going to become a repeat of another story, and how authors (feeling free to talk about your own stories, of course) who have written AUs choose where to change the universe, or whether to just re-write it, and how they tried to make theirs original instead of another version of the same old thing.
     
  23. Coota

    Coota Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2002
    As a note about the whole 'air ducts' thing that Renata mentioned:

    If they were good enough for John McClane, they're good enough for me! ;) But really, the Die Hard ventilation duct scene is like the best ever. Not because he's being sneaky or because it's oh so intelligent that he used them. It's because he knows he's making a lot of noise, he knows it's a small cramped space, he knows the bad guys know where he is, but he also knows that it's the only place he can go. Same thing with Leeloo running for the ventilation duct in 5th Element, another good Bruce Willis movie; ventilation ducts might be cliched, but for some reason I never get tired of characters getting chased into them.
     
  24. The_Standmaiden

    The_Standmaiden Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2002
    Yeah, the ventilation duct thing can be really cool when it's used correctly. However, the coolness factor goes way down when no one in the building heard weird noises in the walls/cieling, and when the ventilation shafts have a ridiculously easy entrance/exit. :p
     
  25. Jane Jinn

    Jane Jinn Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2000
    Earth slang--"Hearing" a character spout some modern-day colloquialism just yanks me right out of a tale. (At least one pro writer for the EU is guilty of this as well. It works in the context of parody, but not in a serious story...

    I agree with you. I really hate reading "We are soooo dead." That's a fairly new piece of slang -- it wasn't around seventeen years ago that I can remember and in fact I'm wondering if it didn't show up with Buffy -- and it just sounds so American and so juvenile! Horrible. I know a lot of writers use a lot of slang because they hear it every day and don't realize it's slang or that it could sound funny to 'foreign' ears. But imagine that you actually meet somebody from the GFFA who speaks Basic, but doesn't know your slang, and you say something like "This situation really sucks." They would look at you in total confusion and ask, "Sucks what? How can a situation do any sucking? It's not a being with a mouth. Why is that a phrase for something bad? Where did it come from?"

    What's worse for me is the way authors put curse words like "Force" and "Sith" into the mouths of their Jedi characters. "Oh, Force, we are in trouble now!" or "Oh, Sith!" The Force is something that the Jedi revere, but I've never heard of them having to call it by name to get its attention. They have to feel it flowing through them. Why, then, would they use that word as an interjection? I would think that the Jedi Temple would teach their children more respect than that.

    And as for Sith, why would they use that word at all? Before TPM, the Sith were known only as the ancient enemy of the Jedi. They were thought to be extinct for all practical purposes. Using that name as a curse word just doesn't make sense. How many of us to-day run around to-day saying "Oh Vandals! Oh Visigoths! Oh Vikings!" Not too many, I think.
     
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