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Conversational Standards on the Site

Discussion in 'Communications' started by devilinthedetails, Sep 20, 2020.

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  1. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    This thread is created in response to a decline conversational standards I have observed on multiple preceding threads in Comms namely: "Can We Bring a Policy Back?", "Can We Please Stop the Constant Harassment?" and most recently the "When in Rome..." thread. It seems to me that those threads have become a place where it is acceptable for a group of users to engage in ad hominem attacks on other users and to accuse other users of being mentally ill, being generators of spam, and being expletive deleted posters merely for posting in game threads or defending the right of other posters to post in game threads without being the target of such comments.

    I tried to express that concern in the "When in Rome..." thread but was informed by a mod that concern was considered off topic for the thread and told to start my own thread in Comms about the issue. So I have done so.

    To provide conversation for the discussion, I have decided to include some examples of the ad hominem attacks on other users, accusations of mental illness, being spam generators, and expletive deleted posters in this thread.

    An ad hominem attack on Tina, in my opinion.

    A denial that the ad hominem is personal when by definition an ad hominem attack is personal.

    More ad hominem targeting Tina.

    Calling Tina's posts word puke and adding nothing constructive to a conversation or dialogue.

    More ad hominen attacks on Tina.

    Just a post designed to bait and bully Tina as far as I can. It adds nothing positive to the discourse.

    Another comment that just seems to exist to bait and goad Tina.

    Another post made just to attack Tina.

    I had never had an interaction with this poster prior to the poster making that comment, but somehow I was deemed to be an expletive poster along with @Emperor Ferus and @Iron_lord. Is that really an acceptable standard of discourse? Are these ad hominem attacks acceptable?

    Directed toward @Iron_lord when he responded to a mod's request for a list of forum threads that could be put in a games category. A post that just exists to needlessly accuse @Iron_lord of generating spam. When @Iron_lord rightly defends himself from this accusation, he receives this snide remark:

    Never mind that hyperlinks are more useful than plain text for finding the threads in question.

    Seems rather graphic for what I thought was a family friendly forum.

    A post that primarily exists to accuse people who like to post in game threads of being "spam lovers."

    An ad hominem on @Iron_lord who is accused of being spam personified and throttling the JC just for enjoying game threads.

    A post that just exists to imply that people who enjoy posting in game threads are mentally ill. It does not seem to add anything positive to any discussion.

    Is calling game threads "like farming threads" that dispense "narcotic joy to a few" truly acceptable and considered constructive conversation in a Comms thread?

    Just a condescending comment that is again an ad hominem so as to avoid any issues about respect being raised by posters such as myself.

    I am creating this thread to discuss that problem as I see it.

    I am inviting especially @Princess_Tina, @Emperor Ferus, and @Iron_lord to this thread as I feel they have been particular targets of ad hominem attacks I quoted in this post.

    I also am tagging three mods who I think do an excellent job in maintaining respectful standards of dialogue in the fanfiction community on this site, @mavjade, @Mira_Jade, and @Briannakin because I am especially interested in their perspectives and insights as I very much trust their judgements.

    All other mods and users are of course welcome to share their thoughts as well. Those are just particular people I'm interested in hearing from. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  2. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    What the ****? Even more of this?
    I suggest you read up on what an ad hominem is before you quote me.
     
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  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Ad hominem: an argument directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. From the Latin for at the person or more precisely at the man.
     
  4. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Yes. That applies to how Princess_Tina characterized me, not to how I characterize her posts.

    I await your apology
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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  5. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Your posts were attacks on Tina as a person, not arguments against positions she had expressed. That is why I quoted them here. I will not apologize unless I am convinced that I have done something wrong or unfair.
     
  6. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    No, I made comments about the content of the posts and the frequency. One is absent, the other is excessive.
     
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  7. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Your posts were primarily about attacking her ather than critiquing the content or frequency of her posts. When other posters only critiqued her post content or frequency, I did not quote them here because I felt they did not attack Tina as a person.
     
  8. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    I took great care not to get personal and I clearly stated my issues with Princess_Tina's posts. Leave me out of whatever **** you're trying to stir up. What you felt has no bearing on the situation.
    well spotted
     
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  9. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    More Tina drama? Jesus ****ing Christ.

    Not intetested. Have fun with this.
     
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  10. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @SuperWatto What I felt was the impetus for me starting this thread so it does have bearing on this thread and situation.

    For the purposes of this discussion, I will conclude that you stand by your posts and feel that they are acceptable and positive contributions to the community. That perspective is noted.

    I am also interested in other perspectives beyond that. Hence why I started this thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  11. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    What a nag
     
  12. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    Look, the last time I interacted with Princess_Tina was three weeks ago, and I was told to ignore Princess_Tina. So that's what I have been doing. In fact I've even resigned myself to the fact that Princess_Tina is now a pervasive presence here. I don't know what else you want from me. If you don't drag me into your drama thread, you won't hear a peep from me.
     
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  13. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @SuperWatto I don't necessarily want anything from you in particular. I just want to clarify what the standard of acceptable and respectful conversation is on this site, which I hoped could be the focus of this thread as it was deemed off topic in the other when I expressed that concern and question. You are welcome to be part of that conversation in this thread or not as you wish. I hope that clears up my intention.
     
  14. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    JCC much?
     
  15. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    This is right out of 2002/2003.
     
  16. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    People are being rude on the internet. Get over it. Your whining has been duly noted by mods already. You want a certain level of respect for everyone 100% of the time; you're not going to get it.

    Comms is often a place for people to air out grievances, including getting a bit personal. It happens. There's a bit more leeway given. Better here in Comms, where issues are expected, than any other forum. There's a reason Comms drama is a JCC meme. Sometimes people cross the line, but the mods usually step in when it goes too far.
     
  17. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Three threads on this and it seems we’re still on it. Some users don’t get along. And they cannot be expected or forced to do so. There is however a difference between civility and respect. Several of these users are ‘civil’ to a point in the threads you have cited, but their lack of ‘respect’ is quite clear. It is a fine line I grant you, but if the behavior does not violate the rules, then it is considered acceptable.

    I also say this as a person who has been ‘civil’ with some users but made clear I had no respect for their political opinions. I see no reason to pretend otherwise.

    Some users have upset other users with their posting style. While some users have not been respectful of how they feel towards those posts, they have been civil. And because of that, no rules have been broken. People have the right to disagree and not to get along. That is part of what a discussion board is. Not all discussion will be friendly. Not all of it will be productive. That’s what we agreed to when we joined.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  18. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    @CT-867-5309 Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do appreciate them and think that they add some ideas I haven't considered.

    I agree that there is never going to any place any where on Earth that will have people being 100% respectful of others 100% of the time. Personally, I will admit that while I do try to be respectful of everyone always, I fall short of that standard from time to time. Yet is the problem in having that standard or in my inability to live up to that high standard? To me, the problem when I look inward at myself would have to be with the latter: myself. So that is why I tend to advocate for high standards while hopefully allowing for the possibility that all people will fall short of those standards from time to time.

    You make a fair point as well that Comms is by design a place for people to air out grievances, which may result in things getting more personal on occasion and why more leeway may be given.

    So I am grateful that I started this thread just because I got that perspective in itself. It gives me valuable insight into other point of views and may add some nuance to my own viewpoint.

    @Yodaminch Thanks as well for sharing your thoughts. You may be right that there is a fine line between "civility" and "respect" even though they are often treated as meaning the same thing but there can indeed be a worthwhile distinction between what is considered civil and what is considered respectful. I suppose in a sense my question is about what do we define as the bounds of civility? Is it civil to refer to people as expletive deleted posters or call game threads "like farming threads" that dispense "narcotic joy to a few"? My personal opinion would tend to be no, but others might make a different judgement. So I hoped this thread could be a place where people could talk about those judgements.
     
  19. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Reading through threads in this forum over the past 20 years would likely have given you similar insight, and more.
     
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  20. SuperWatto

    SuperWatto Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    devilinthedetails, it's being taken care of. Changes will be made.
    While waiting for those changes, people have already stopped causing drama. Why don't you?
     
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  21. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Perhaps, but I have only been here a year. Which is why other perspectives from people who have been here longer and have more experience may be helpful to me at times.
     
  22. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Better phrased than I ever could have @devilinthedetails and also the much needed brutal honesty
    =D=


    I cannot believe how dismissive everyone is being including mods
     
  23. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
  24. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Ad nauseam: referring to something that has been done or repeated so often that it has become annoying or tiresome.

    Used in a sentence: Thanks for another Tina thread, but they’ve been done ad nauseam

    By the way, the last day on the boards has been bliss
     
  25. Yodaminch

    Yodaminch Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    @KnightWriter is essentially saying that those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it. When he says this is like 2002/2003 again, he refers to user disputes like this.

    In reality, we have made far greater strides with the rules as they are. The issue here is that some users just don’t get along. And that won’t change. 20 years of this has proven that.

    The difference is when a post goes from being civil to being an attack against that user directly. The quotes you cited mostly center on criticism of the opinion, the quality of the post, or the type of thread. You’ll note they stop short of a personal attack on the user. The minute they cross that line is when moderators tend to intervene. So yes, there is a fine line between civility and respect, but those users are still being civil even if the comments are lacking any respect.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
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