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PT Could anything have saved the Jedi from Sidious?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Durge27, Jun 15, 2020.

  1. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Dooku told Kenobi in AOTC, but Kenobi didn’t believe him.
     
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  2. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Thanks. I had actually forgotten about that bit about Exegol in Aftermath...
     
  3. Jedi_Prophet77

    Jedi_Prophet77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2017
    'You must CHOOSE!' -- Palpatine to Anakin

    There is no such thing as fate. The dark side was growing more powerful, but not invincible. The Jedi were blinded by the dark side, but I wonder if it wasn't altogether willingly: the way the great powers were willfully blind in the early to mid-20th century. At any rate, it's all about choices and consequences.
     
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  4. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Sure, many things could have saved the Jedi, had they acted earlier. Sidious was by no means all-powerful, contrary to what some people think. He could have lost at many points during the prequels. Sure, he had planned many things, but often just gambled and happened to win. After all he was just ONE guy, Sith or not. The Jedi were practically an army, and an army consisting of superhuman, wise, skillful and even prescient beings. Nobody can tell me that it was totally impossible for such a group to defeat a single person. They had to lose because the OT has to happen. Sure, "the dark side clouds everything". Maybe. But then it really doesn't do much good being a Jedi, does it? So the dark side also clouded Anakin's relationship with Padmé? Really? A blind person would have sensed something was going on between the two, and that it would create problems. Yet they all chose to completely ignore it. Had they not sent Anakin to Naboo with Padmé, they very likely wouldn't have fallen in love. No marriage, no pregnancy, no fanatical attachment and fear for Padmé's life, meaning no intervention by Anakin when Mace dueled Sidious. Mace would have won, no more Sidious, no more Sith, no Empire, period.
     
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  5. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    From Sidious? Possibly.

    From the Dark Side? Definitely not.

    The Dark Side and the Sith's return was inevitable.

    People forget, Sidious is the final product of the Darth Bane's new Sith Order. You can also add Maul, Dooku and Vader to this product line if you want. But Sidious didn't just pop up out of nowhere and destroyed the Jedi. He was strong and he was well trained, and he was prepared because of this Sith line and Sith's training.

    [​IMG]

    Source: Darth Vader - 020 The Shu-Torun War (2016)

    It's a Sith line that comes from generations of generations old Sith lords which started with Darth Bane. Remove Sidious, it could be Plagueis, remove Plagueis it could be Tenebrous, you can name other Sith lords, Maul, Dooku etc. The point is, the Sith and the Dark Side was always there. And the Jedi didn't just become blind in the last years of the Republic, they have failed to see it for hundreds of years during this 1000 years timeline, that's also why they failed. They never even defeated the Sith completely. The other Sith, the Sith lords I mentioned above, could also continue to fight against the Jedi if they wanted, or if Sidious let them, and they could succeed to some extent. Let's remember Maul's plan, he wasn't taken down by Kenobi or Windu if you followed the Clone Wars, he was taken by Sidious himself when Sidious come to Mandalore, he destroyed Maul's apprentice and he has weakened Maul's army, by forcing Grievous and Dooku to fight with Maul later. We don't know what Maul could do without Sidious in the big picture, with a powerful apprentice at his side (Savage Opress) and having powerful allies (such as Mandalorians, and the Criminal organizations, and Nightsisters) against the Jedi. That war could last hundreds of years.

    But Sidious ended it. Sidious also planned Dooku's death, and he orchestrated the final duel between Anakin and Dooku in Invisible Hand, and he forced Anakin to execute Dooku. Without Sidious, Dooku and with a strong apprentice at his side (Ventress), and powerful allies such as the Trade Federations, and Geonosians etc. That war could also continue with the Jedi. Without Sidious, Dooku could even team up with Maul against the Jedi, as he actually did in Son of Dathomir for a while. Even Grievous alone could continue to the war with the Jedi, if Sidious didn't snitch Grievous's location to the Jedi. So Sidious was not only destroyed the Jedi, he also destroyed the rival Dark Siders who are weaker than himself. Because he knew he could pay the price if he let the weaker Sith lords to team up against himself, just like the old Sith lords before Darth Bane paid the price. Sidious was following Darth Bane's doctrine, and he wasn't letting other weaker dark siders to grow stronger by teaming up as well. Which is also why he ordered Ventress's death, when Dooku didn't want to lose Ventress.

    Darth Bane realized that the multiple Sith lords can't exist at the same time, because of their greed, the weaker Sith lords are teaming up against the strong Sith master. And they were taking the strong Sith out. So that's why he decided that only 1 Sith apprentice and 1 Sith master can exist at the same time.

    But then, there would be a problem, the Jedi have no problem like growing in numbers while the Sith would be limited in terms of number and they would be outnumbered if they fight in an all out fight.

    Just like Maul has seen in his vision when he was in Malachor.

    [​IMG]

    Which why they had to start to plan and they had to back stab the Jedi by holding the strings of the Republic from the shadows.

    [​IMG]

    Because of their rule of two, they were preparing and planning from the shadows. That individual could be Sidious, Plagueis or Tenebrous, or Maul or Dooku etc.

    [​IMG]

    The inevitable thing was the return of the Sith and the Dark Side.

    [​IMG]

    Source: Darth Maul: Age of Republic (2018)

    Sidious was the strongest of that line, which is why he ended up as the Emperor. But if you remove Sidious, I doubt the Jedi could actually succeed against the Sith and the Dark side anyway. I don't think they could, the war with the Sith and with the Dark Side would continue for years.

    My point is, removing one individual (Sidious) wouldn't solve anything. I agree Sidious is the strongest of them, which is why he destroyed the others, but the other dark siders were also powerful against the Jedi, and they could be even more powerful without Sidious in the big picture.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  6. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Nope.

    He was in his prime in the PT. Along with his vast knowledge of what’s going on around him and his unrivaled manipulation skills in the political arena and the outside of it.

    His only threat was The Chosen One who was made to balance Sidious’ vast powers of the Dark Side. Which is why Palpatine had to do what he had to do with Anakin.

    The most powerful Jedi, Yoda was the only one that could stand with him but even he ended up going into exile.

    The only one that really stopped him was Rey Palpatine because she herself was a Palpatine. But that also drained her life energy just to defeat him only to be revived by Ben Solo.
     
  7. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    No, Windu also fought him and almost won, if not for Anakin's interference. Windu should have brought at least 10 Jedi with him to make sure to arrest Palpatine. It's really the Jedi's fault that they all underestimated him, despite Anakin's warning. Had the Jedi been a little more cautious and foresighted I would say they would have beaten Palpatine. They were simply too ignorant, too sure of themselves and didn't even realize Palpatine's power until it was too late. A real plan to defeat him may actually have worked.
     
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  8. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2019
    The problem with that is, outside of Anakin (who clearly wasn’t in the right state of mind to confront Palpy), Windu might not have had anybody else who was possibly capable of confronting the Sith Master besides those 3 Council members. The Jedi were spread out pretty thin at the time (something I assume was always part of Palpatine’s endgame).

    Sure, you could say that Windu could have called in some reinforcements but they only had a small window to act. That’s not to say that they didn’t underestimate him (because they most definitely did), just that they didn’t have much time to put together a real plan.

    Pure numbers wouldn’t help much either since they’d just end up getting in each other’s way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  9. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    I disagree.

    Yoda was fighting the All Powerful Master of the Dark Side known as Darth Sidious.

    While Mace was fighting the disguise Political Kind old man..Palpatine. The Palpatine that Grevious easily kidnapped and the battle droids easily manhandled.

    He has no reason to fight Mace when he had the whole Clone Troopers ready to go since Ep. 2. Unless Anakin TURNED him down and not believing his lies vowing to find the truth.

    His battle with Mace was a set up to finally turn the conflicted Anakin and for a valid reason to the Senate about Order 66.

    He literally told Anakin what was going to happen before this duel. Anakin said no way because the Jedi are good they will NOT try to take over and assassinate you.

    Then boom!! Cue Anakin entering to a defenseless old Palpatine ready to be executed by a Jedi.

    Unlike the Yoda duel where he has no reason to fake anything...no plans or foreshadowing before the duel....it’s just one on one on who will win between the most powerful Jedi vs the All Powerful Master of the Dark Side....he was going all out as Sidious....he had to....no holding back this time.
     
  10. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Prophecy doesn't say that no Jedi can defeat the Sith. They can. Nor that it says that you need to be incredibly powerful to defeat the Sith, it doesn't say anything like that. So that's irrelevant. When Vader killed Sidious, Vader was definitely weaker than Sidious. And not only that, it happened after Vader lost to Luke in Return of the Jedi, when Luke was just learning how to be a Jedi, and Vader was unarmed and even lost his right hand and his lightsaber to Luke during the duel. So how did Vader kill Sidious? He wasn't more powerful, but he still did it by catching Sidious off-guard. So Sidious is not unbeatable. No one is.

    Sidious also tried to run away from Yoda, because there was no guarantee that he could defeat him.

    Sidious himself accepted the fact that Jedi has numbers on their side, and the faith of the Republic was a problem, and they needed to make plans, they couldn't defeat them with their own individual power.

    [​IMG]

    Maul: ''Rage. It fuels us. But it won't be enough to stop the Jedi alone. They have numbers on their side. And the faith of the Republic.''
    Sidious: ''For the moment. In time, and with careful planning, they will lose both.''
    Source: Darth Maul: Age of Republic (2018)


    That's the reason why Sidious ''waited so long'' to face with Yoda,

    [​IMG]

    Then he decided to run away from him after seeing how powerful Yoda is.

    [​IMG]

    Sidious barely won the fight. He also was not powerful enough to kill Yoda. They were evenly matched. Sidious ordered his army to finish the job. The reason why Yoda left is mostly because of the Clone army. If Yoda had the army, and if Sidious didn't have the army, then Sidious would run away not Yoda.

    There is also another fact that Sidious is following Darth Bane's rule of two, because he knows that if he let other Sith lords to team up against him, they would be a threat to himself. And they could actually destroy him.



    Sidious: ''She has become very powerful. I would hate to think you're training your own Sith apprentice to destroy me.''

    It's the same with Maul and his apprentice Savage.



    Sidious: ''You've become a RIVAL!!''

    Sidious himself accepted the fact that the other things than ''the Chosen One'' could actually destroy him. (Yoda, and potential Sith rivals; Dooku, Maul) and as a powerful Jedi master, Windu was one of them.

    One can even say that Sidious was being paranoiac by not even letting Dooku to have Ventress. But it's natural that Sidious wasn't taking any chances. Because the Sith lords before Darth Bane has experienced that before (the weaker Sith lords teamed up and they destroyed the stronger Sith lord).

    1- Anakin already sees the dead bodies of the defeated Jedi masters when he enters the office. (According to the novel, he even sees the duel between Kit Fisto and Windu vs. Sidious from a long distance, and he sees that Fisto dies during the duel.) The bodies of the Jedi masters didn't just vaporized after Sidious killed them, they were still there.
    2- Anakin himself said that the Chancellor is ''very powerful'' and Windu would need his help.
    3- Anakin has seen how powerful Sidious's Force lightning was, which blinded Anakin's vision (he couldn't even look at it) and it could catch Windu off-guard if Windu wasn't ready for Sidious's Force lightning. Windu didn't even know that Sidious could use Force lightning, and Windu could easily die there, but he barely deflected it by screaming in pain (due to still getting hit by Sidious's some part of the lightning).

    As if you're saying that Anakin doesn't have any idea that how powerful Sidious is. To say this, especially after personally seeing how powerful Sidious's Force lightning is really doesn't make any sense.

    What Anakin has seen that Sidious was very powerful, but Windu somehow managed to defeat him (it happens in Star Wars universe, sometimes the weaker fighter can win the fight as it happened many times), and he could actually kill him. Which is why Anakin had to ''choose'' what he was going to do. Saving Sidious from dying, or betraying the Jedi. He chose the latter.

    It really doesn't make sense to say that Sidious was acting, but the other thing is it also cheapens Anakin's ''big decision'', as if Sidious was joking around, and if Anakin didn't help, he could still kill Windu and Anakin at the same time, and he could continue to rule the universe. And it also means that Anakin can't understand if Sidious is actually acting or not, so he had to cut Windu's arm instead of letting Sidious to just defend himself against Windu.

    No matter how powerful a person is in the Force, they could still lose fights due to circumstantial reasons, and especially when the other person is more powerful than usual (Windu was more powerful than usual in that fight) and Sidious is not an exception to this rule.

    Anakin as a Force user, and as a powerful Jedi and as an intelligent person, can't understand that? No, he would surely know that if Sidious was actually faking and he would know that Sidious could still defend himself against Windu.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  11. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    Actually I’m just going by the movie and not the novels. Because if you go by the novel, Palpatine was also recording the whole duel....hmmm I wonder why?

    And Anakin only knows Palpatine as Old man nice guy Palpatine NOT the a**h**** Sidious that the Trade Federation feared.

    Anakin was telling Mace that so he can come along TO MAKE SURE they are going to arrest him and NOT assassinate him like what Palpatine has been telling him.

    And Mechanical Vader did NOT defeat Sidious ....he back stabbed him Killing himself in the process.....that doesn’t count as a duel.

    Even Rey Palpatine ended up killing herself just to defeat the Dark Lord.

    Yoda is the only one that went to to toe with Sidious.....was he willing to sacrifice his life for Palpatine’s death as well....nope he chose another path.

    As for Mace, there’s a lot of plot expositions and foreshadowing before this fake duel.

    Again, if Anakin DID NOT turn down Palpatine in the first place along with what Palpatine has been telling him before this then I would say it’s not a set up.

    But Palpatine losing ends up accomplishing his endgame ....finally turning Anakin and having an excuse for the Order 66.

    True the Chosen One was not truly explained BUT I’m going with what Snoke said in TLJ saying whenever a an extreme power has risen then another equal of power will be made to meet it.
     
  12. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    I don't know what you are talking about, but that's not true. Anakin is not an idiot.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Anakin even wanted to kill Sidious, but he still managed to restrain himself.

    Sidious tried to stop Vader with his Force lightning, but he failed. And Vader still killed him with one hand. The point is, in Star Wars universe there is no guarantee. If Sidious let Windu willingly to point his lightsaber through his throat when Sidious was also unarmed then that's too much of a risk to take it. Sidious would never risks his life like that. He is the same guy who even considers Ventress as a threat and orders Dooku to kill her, this guy wouldn't risk his life over Anakin's personal choices on joining to the dark side. There was no guarantee that Anakin would join the dark side. It was a huge decision for Anakin. Even Anakin himself was shocked on what he has done. So, Windu was just more powerful than usual on that day, and he managed to defeat Sidious. It happens, not everytime the stronger fighter wins the fights. Think this as sports, weaker teams can win fights even if they rank lower than the other teams.



    Windu was going arrest him, that's still true. But after Sidious attacked him with Force lightning, Windu changed his mind. Lucas also confirmed that.
    https://boards.theforce.net/threads/implication-of-maces-decision-in-palpatines-office.50047432/
    Lucas states on the commentary "Mace was going to arrest him but after Palpatine did the lightning he changed his mind."

    That also my point as well. I explained above, If Sidious was pretending to be weak, he shouldn't attack Windu with a powerful Force lightning in the first place, Windu was screaming pain because it was too powerful, and in the novel it almost bend Windu's lightsaber backward and Windu asks Anakin's help to stop Sidious, in the novel Windu says; "Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, ; if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!" and then ;
    "You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

    Windu barely survived Sidious's Force lightning, it could easily kill Windu.

    Sidious's Force lightning was so powerful, Windu was struggling and he was asking Anakin's help because of desperation. That's also when Windu realizes that Sidious is too powerful and he needed to execute him, not only because he controls the senate and the courts.

    Also you still didn't explain why would Anakin failed to understand how powerful Sidious is, or that Anakin wouldn't be smart enough to understand Sidious was faking and pretending to be weak, especially after seeing how powerful Sidious's Force lightning was, and especially after how Windu was struggling to deflect Sidious's Force lightning, and asking for Anakin's help. This also doesn't make sense at all.
     
  13. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    That scene exactly.

    When Palpatine said I could feel your anger...it makes you focus and stronger.

    Palpatine has been telling him that stop believing all the LIES the Jedi has been telling him.

    Hence why Anakin DID NOT strike a defenseless Sith. And as a GOOD JEDI he TURNED him over to the council instead.

    Palpatine: But you’re not sure about their intentions are you.

    Anakin: I will quickly DISCOVER the TRUTH to all of this.

    His last words to Palpatine.

    Palpatine’s last words to Anakin: You do know, don’t you? If the Jedi DESTROY ME...any chance of saving her would be lost.

    Then Anakin enters to Mace being the aggressor.


    Palpatine obliterated 3 Jedi Masters in seconds and Mace couldn’t do diddly squat.

    It’s obvious the moment Anakin came in ...it was the Palpatine show special.

    It doesn’t make Anakin an idiot....because the whole audience knows Palpatine is EVIL. On the other hand Ani only knows the kind Old man.

    Why do you think even after Palpatine obliterated Mace like nothing he was still talking about this Evil Jedi Plot?

    Even Anakin told Obi-Wan: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over. Palpatine literally convinced him that the Jedi are the evil ones.

    The first lightning was used to make Mace changed from arrest to KILL. It was all planned. He had to force ANAKIN to act since he couldn’t get off the fence in the beginning. Check Mate Palpatine

    Palpatine has faked his own kidnapping to FAKING the whole Clone Wars itself BUT faking to Mace???!!! No way!!! Cmon man!!

    Him coming back from the dead in TROS just proved that it takes a special someone that could defeat him...wether a Skywalker or a Palpatine.

    You see your making Anakin’s decisions through an audience eyes.

    In Anakin’s POV, the Jedi since the beginning of ROTS has been doing un Jedi like choices and Palpatine has been manipulating all of it. Anakin never sees what we see .....like him being Darth Sidious and all the evil Sidious has done since TPM.

    The Mace duel began all the way to the the moment he made Anakin his personal representative on the Jedi Council and the Opera Scene.

    So your saying it was just DUMB LUCK that he lost to Mace which made all of Palpatine’s LIES come true??

    Ok I told Anakin all this crap BUT that lil bastard still didn’t believe me!! He even turned me over to his Jedi cronies!!! Dam what should I do???!!! How can I convince him??!!! Oh crap!! Here’s the Jedi..man ok let me just kill all of them so I can think of a plan to convince Anakin....oh no Mace beat me!! That’s It!!!!!

    Anakin I was right!!! The Jedi are taking over!! LOL
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  14. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    That scene exactly shows Anakin wanted to kill Sidious, and he doesn't see him as a ''kind old man'', that's your baseless claim. Anakin isn't a fool. Anakin and Obi-Wan were searching Sidious (the other Sith lord) for years, since the beginning of the Clone Wars, and Anakin has just discovered that Sith Lord's identity. Anakin knows what the Sith Lords are and what they are capable of. And not only that, Sidious fooled Anakin for years by pretending to be the Chancellor, and that's why Anakin was pissed off, and he wanted to kill Sidious for that. But he still didn't do that. And you're telling me that Sidious fooled Anakin again after that? As I said, you can only trick Anakin once, he is not an idiot.

    You don't need to make this confusing, such as a plan where Sidious has foreseen every minutes and details of it. He tried to recruit Anakin, he failed because Anakin said he will deliver him alive. Then he lost to Windu, then he saw Anakin, and he asked Anakin to save his life. But Anakin didn't decide anything yet. Then Windu said Sidious has lost, Sidious got enraged and he attacked Windu with a powerful Force lightning, but he failed again. To make up excuses like this, really doesn't look good for Sidious, I know you're a Sidious fan, but Sidious lost that fight. Everyone can lose a fight in Star Wars.

    This is why Anakin's choice was even more important, not because of a circus act where Sidious pretends to be weak as if Anakin would buy that again. And that's not how you can show how powerful the dark side of the Force is. Sidious was trying to recruit Anakin by telling him how great the dark side of the Force is, and he is not going to lose to the Jedi when he was trying to show that the dark side is more powerful than the light. That doesn't make any sense.

    He didn't do it intentionally, he didn't disarm himself intentionally and he didn't leave his fate at the hands of Anakin's choice. Sith lords are not idiots, there is no way the Sith lords would leave their fate at the hands of a Jedi, based on that Jedi could join the dark side or not. If Anakin helped Windu, Sidious was dead. Sidious is no fool, he would never risk his life like that.

    It's not surprising that Windu was the only one who was standing at the end, because the other 3 Jedi were not like Windu. They were not on Windu's level. Windu was the strongest of them. Even Lucas said that clearly, that Windu was on a different level than the other 3 Jedi. And he said only Yoda or Windu could compete with Sidious amongst the Jedi.

    "The actors rehearse in their dressing gowns and then adjourn for final costume adjustments, while Lucas and Knoll continue to examine the footage. When Palpatine easily strikes down Mace's three associate Jedi at the outset of the scene. Knoll says, "Look at this. Mace brought the B-team!"
    "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204


    What I see that Windu (and the other Jedi obviously) underestimated Sidious's power at the beginning, and Windu couldn't save his Jedi friends, then Windu focused more, probably Windu was even stronger than usual on that day, because everything was depending on that fight, and he managed to win. It happens, Vader lost to Luke, Kylo lost to Rey etc. And Windu isn't a joke, Lucas himself said he could compete with Sidious, and he was the second strongest Jedi in the order after only Yoda.

    And as I said earlier, shooting lightning after he loses the duel only debunks your theory. Even if I have to take that theory seriously, then shooting a powerful Force lightning at Windu is really contradicting with your theory on Sidious lost it on purpose. Because Sidious should've been pretended to be weak at that point according to you, and he shouldn't do anything but begging, but what Sidious does? He tries to kill Windu AGAIN, with a powerful Force lightning, right here;

    Why he is still attacking to Windu with a powerful Force lightning if he was really faking that he lost the duel to Windu? He should've been begging here instead of attacking Windu.

    Again, I know you like Sidious, but you really should give up on that idea where Sidious shouldn't lose any fights, he can and he did. Get used to it, no one is unbeatable in the Star Wars universe.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  15. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    He was attacking Mace with that first lightning because he wanted Mace to CHANGE from arrest TO ASSASSINATE.

    Sidious has been putting his life on the line since the OT. Remember Luke...he said strike me down and he KNOWS Vader will still block it. And that’s after TESB when Vader literally told Luke that he could destroy the Emperor.

    Again you are the one complicating this....he was pissed at Palpatine that he was the Sith Lord...but Palpatine also told him DONT be deceived by the LIES the Jedi has been telling him.

    So after all those dialogues Palpatine said before this fake duel...how can Palpatine SPIN to Anakin who TURNED HIM DOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE, IF Anakin walked in on 4 dead Jedi Masters?????

    Palpatine: Ummm Anakin....I told you they were trying to kill me so I killed them first...now JOIN ME!!!

    Anakin: Yeah why not!!

    LOL

    Anakin was there to HELP the Jedi arrest Palpatine NOT to join Palpatine and kill all his Jedi Family including innocent younglings.

    Hence why Palpatine had to set this up.

    So are you saying it’s just a coincidence that ALL OF Palpatine’s LIES came true the moment he lost to Mace???

    Then it’s also a coincidence that Amidala voted a no confidence against Valorum.

    Coincidence that Obi-Wan found the Clone Army same time finding out Dooku and his droid army are preparing for war.

    Coincidence that Grevious kidnaps Palpatine making Anakin and Obi-Wan out of the outer rims to rescue him.

    Coincidence that the Rebels found out about the new Death Star with the Emperor himself will be there.


    And did you say powerful force lightning at Mace???

    It’s when he OBLITERATED Mace after turning Anakin was the REAL powerful lightning.....he even said it POWER UNLIMITED POWER!!!

    It’s when he KOed Yoda when he said now YOU FEEL THE FULL POWER OF THE DARK SIDE.

    It’s when he EASILY blasted Yoda’s lightsaber away with his lightning.

    That whole office was his weapon. Yet he gave up the moment Ani walked in?? The whole Yoda vs Sidious duel was on a different level....obviously he was going all out while holding back against Mace.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  16. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    There was absolutely no threat when Vader, his Sith apprentice was there to protect him from Luke.

    He didn't know that Anakin would join the dark side. Anakin wasn't his apprentice, he was a Jedi, and expecting from him to definitely betray Windu would be reaching. Even Anakin himself wasn't expecting that, which is why he was in shock when he has done it.

    He can't read Windu's mind. How can he know Windu is going to decide to kill him if he attacks him with Force lightning? He couldn't know. If Windu didn't try to kill him, Anakin wouldn't join the dark side. He is not controlling Windu's actions.

    I guess in your mind, Sidious would risk everything for Anakin, and if Anakin is not joining, everything is doomed. ''how can Palpatine SPIN to Anakin who TURNED HIM DOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE'' , well he doesn't. Sidious failed to turn Rey, Luke and even Ezra to the dark side, it's not the end of the world for him. Sidious would come up with another apprentice. He is not going to suicide just because Anakin is not joining to the dark side.

    No, of course it's not a coincidence that Anakin arrived in time to save Sidious from Windu, because he knew during the duel, Windu could kill Sidious. It's not something wouldn't happen. It was a high possibility, it was a duel after all. And Sidious was still shooting Force lightning at Windu, and they were still fighting when Anakin arrived.

    The things you've said (voting Volorum, kidnapping Palpatine etc.) no one knew Sidious was the Sith Lord. He had the advantage of being unknown, he revealed himself to Anakin. He lost that advantage. and he couldn't know that Anakin was going to join the dark side for sure. He can't see the future clearly, which is why he failed to recruit Luke, which is why he died too soon in the second death star. There was no guarantee.

    ''And did you say powerful force lightning at Mace???''

    Yes, watch the movie. It was powerful enough to blind Anakin's eyes, it was powerful enough to make Windu scream in pain. It was powerful enough to bend Windu's lightsaber backward.
    Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face. Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him." "You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"
    --- Revenge of the Sith Novel

    ''That whole office was his weapon. Yet he gave up the moment Ani walked in??''

    He didn't. He used his Force lightning to defeat Windu, and he failed.

    ''The whole Yoda vs Sidious duel was on a different level....obviously he was going all out while holding back against Mace''

    Lucas said Windu can also compete with Sidious's power, not only Yoda. So that already debunks theory as well.
     
  17. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    Compete with Sidious???? LOL

    Only Yoda can compete with him....Mace couldn’t even defeat him with a 4-1 advantage.

    If you were in a fight and I told you that you can beat that guy one on one......PLUS I’ll give you 3 MORE GUYS to help you....boom you would definitely and easily kill that guy!!!

    Not Sidious though, He easily destroyed Mace’s 4-1 advantage in MERE SECONDS....NEVER BEEN DONE in all of SW Movie lightsaber duels. And he didn’t even run away to separate them and covertly attack....nope....he went at them STRAIGHT UP and Mace couldn’t even do anything with his 4-1 advantage.

    Because GL flip flops a lot ....he says one thing then contradict himself later....he also said Palpatine was a weakling like Grevious so basically Only Yoda and Mace can compete with a weakling???

    At least Ian Mcdiarmid when asked straight up about this specific duel....he said it was a set up and all for Anakin’s behalf.

    You want to see the difference in lightning....umm look at the power he unleashed on his granddaughter....it was so powerful that it took seconds to obliterate himself.

    While with Mace...he was even talking to Anakin at that that time telling him YOU MUST CHOOSE....DONT LET HIM KILL ME!! Lol

    Again. Let’s Role play here...Pretend you’re Palpatine.

    You already have the Clones at your side but Anakin Even though you told him you can save his wife still turned you down and not believing that the Jedi are the evil ones here saying he will find the Truth to all of this....are you saying you as the Mastermind since TPM would just kill Mace???

    What do you gain?? You will end up worst from before the moment Anakin turned you down.

    And exactly!!!! Anakin said WHAT HAVE I DONE???

    That sounds like a person who was there NOT to join Palpatine and kill all his Jedi Family.....but a guy who was forced to choose and see what Palpatine has been telling him about the Jedi.

    He LITERALLY has contingency plans on everything EVEN his death in ROTJ but yet OH No Not my precious Mace Windu.

    Watch the WHOLE MOVIE instead of just fast forwarding to the Mace duel.

    I mean if people just skip all the dialogues THEN of course people would say...yeah The Clone Wars is an actual war not faked by Palpatine at all. LOL

    Sorry Even Ian Mcdiarmid confirmed it so this is not some wild theory. Rick Mccalum, one of the producers also said the moment Anakin walked in ...it was a fake job by Palpatine. Nick Guillard choreographer said Sidious is the master of ALL lightsaber techniques and FIGHTS LESS THAN YOU TO GAIN ADVANTAGE.

    In TROS, a half dead half powered Palpatine EASILY DISARMS THE Dyad....Mace had no chance hahaha IF HE DID...he could have finished off Palpatine with a 4-1 advantage if he was so up there with Palpatine.

    If Yoda had that 4-1 advantage....believe me...Palpatine would retreat first then attack instead of going head on like an unstoppable force of nature against Mace and co. Lol
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  18. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    ''Sidious69'' I know you like Sidious, but you need to face with reality. No one is unbeatable in Star Wars universe. I even put a statement from an official from Lucasfilm, where it says that top 5 red lightsabers users list is true, where Vader is more skilled than Sidious in lightsaber combat, but lower ranked fighters can still win fights, just like it happens in the sports. That's what they said. Especially someone as skilled as Windu, is capable of defeating Sidious. It happens. Just like Luke defeated Vader, or Rey defeated Kylo when no one expected that they could.

    Lucas can change his mind about other things but Nick Gillard himself also put Windu to a higher level than Kenobi as a duelist. And he said Windu is only second to Yoda in the order. Windu was on a different level than the other Jedi masters. Windu also quickly killed Jango Fett, the same guy who give trouble to Kenobi before. Denying Windu's skills with a lightsaber won't help you in this argument.

    Windu defeated him with 4-1 advantage, you are denying this and this is the argument that we are talking about in the first place. Windu defeated Sidious, Anakin had to save him.

    If Sidious used the Clones, then he could never recruit Anakin. So that ends your excuse about why he didn't use the Clones. He couldn't activate Order 66 before recruiting Anakin, otherwise the Clones would attack Anakin as well, because Anakin was still a Jedi at that point and he didn't join Sidious yet, and Anakin would never join Sidious if that happened. Sidious was trying to force Anakin to join him, but that's not how he can do that by losing a duel to a Jedi. Sidious was talking about how powerful the dark side is and he says it's powerful enough to say Padme, and losing a duel to a Jedi is not the way to show him how powerful dark side is. That also contradicts with your excuse. Windu defeated him, then Anakin saved Sidious, plain and simple. Finding funny excuses for Sidious only makes him look even worse here.

    Sidious could recruit Anakin in the future, because he knew Anakin was obssessed with saving Padme, one way or another, Anakin was going to join. But he needed time. Because Anakin was desperate about Padme. That's not the only way for Anakin to join the dark side. Windu's victory over Sidious, only accelerated that process of Anakin's journey to the dark side. While you're acting like Anakin could only join if Windu defeated Sidious, that's completely baseless. Anakin already had the potential to join the dark side, he didn't need to see that Windu defeating Sidious. Even Maul has seen Anakin's future, Anakin was going to join the dark side one way or another, Sidious acting like being weak against a Jedi is not really helping to this, in fact that could actually be against Sidious's plot, because it forced Anakin to cut Windu's arm. Anakin might not do that in that moment, he could restrain himself, but he still did it, and it was a surprise for even Anakin. And don't expect for people to believe Sidious has seen that, otherwise he wouldn't beg or attack Windu because he knew Anakin was going to do that so he wouldn't need to be worry about Windu. He wasn't worried about Luke but he was worried about Windu. As I said, Windu's victory against Sidious, only accelerated the process of joining to the dark side. It was going to happen, there was no need to be hasty about it. Pretending like that was only way for Anakin to join is reaching. Sidious wouldn't risk his life like that, because he already knew Anakin was going to join him. He didn't need to lose a duel to Windu.

    That's classic Palpatine, he first attacked Yoda, then he tried to escape from Yoda. He first attacked Windu, and then when Windu defeats him, he tried to beg for his life. And when Windu said Sidious lost, Sidious got mad and he tried to kill Windu again with a powerful Force lightning, but he failed again and he tried to beg for his life again. And he asked help from Anakin. That's how he is.

    Ian or no one has ever said that Sidious lost on purpose. That's not true and it's baseless.

    Since now you're talking about the Sequels huh... How did Sidious die? By deflecting his Force lightning right back at him. Hmm... That looks familiar. It looks like that's something Windu did before;

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It's almost the same.

    So Dyad lost, but how did Rey beat Palpatine after? By hearing the voices of the past Jedi, and one of the those voices belongs to Windu.
    Windu: “Feel the Force flowing through you, Rey.”
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  19. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004

    Again what does he gain killing Mace AFTER Anakin was in arrest mode????

    He could NOT Order 66 because he does not have a valid reason to the Senate as well. How can he prove to Anakin and the Senate and the whole galaxy that the Jedi are the evil ones in the first place and must be destroyed and have an Empire???

    And if Anakin was destined to join the Dark Side then Palpatine would have just Order 66 the moment Anakin turned him down. But he didn’t.

    Like I said what would your plan be if you were The mastermind Palpatine???? All your lies about the Jedi didn’t work on Anakin....so you will kill Mace then??? And then what??? Anakin TURNED HIM DOWN AND was there to arrest him now he will Join him seeing a Dead Mace????

    You have valid points BUT you are ONLY seeing this duel AND NOT the whole movie with dialogues and plot expositions before and after this.

    Anakin doesn’t see what we see. We know Sidious has been manipulating everything BUT Anakin only sees a fraction of it....he knows Palpatine as a caring old wise Politician all his life NOT the monster the audience sees.

    “Do NOT UNDERESTIMATE the POWERS of the Emperor OR suffer your FATHER’S Fate you will” Yoda to Luke

    A handicapped Palpatine LITERALLY UNARMED and FROZE the mighty DYAD with EASE...Mace would not be a problem if he wasn’t holding back.

    Mace defeated Jango easily because his Jet Pack was NOT Working IF Obi-Wan had that luxury he would have easily killed Jango also.

    And that Rey Palpatine comparison shows exactly the LEVELS of lightning power he was using. When he blasted Rey he didn’t even have time to shut it off let alone talk like he did during Mace.

    Baseless?? Ian Himself said it on this video


    31 minute mark
     
  20. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    [face_rofl] Can't you hear the laughing after he said that? And you think this is serious?

    Then he says ''Sam Jackson beat me, yeah, to a pulp''. :D No where he says Sidious threw the fight.
    How can he prove to Anakin? Just like he proved to the senate, he was wounded because of Windu. And he doesn't need to prove anything to the senate, or to Anakin. Anakin was going to join to the dark side anyway, and the senate was in his pocket. Palpatine doesn't need to prove anything to the senate, LOL.

    Anakin was going to join to the dark side, but ordering him to get killed by the Clones is not going to help it, lol.

    Anakin knew Windu was going to kill Palpatine, which is why he went there. To protect Palpatine if Windu kills him. Because he knew Windu was capable of doing that. And you're doubting about Anakin's expertise on who can win fights and who can lose, it's almost a joke to you, it doesn't work like that in Star Wars universe, no one is unbeatable in the Star Wars. You should give up on this dream.

    ''he knows Palpatine as a caring old wise Politician all his life'' again, I already debunked this before, you're repeating yourself. Anakin wanted to kill Palpatine, but he restrained himself. Because he was deceived by Palpatine and he wasn't going to listen him anymore, and he knows what Sith lords are, as if you really believe Anakin is an idiot who doesn't understand what Sith lords are. And you still think Palpatine can deceive Anakin twice... There was no act, Windu was going to kill Palpatine, and Anakin saved him. That's the end of it, finding funny excuses for Palpatine is really irritating.

    There was no such a thing as ''mighty dyad'', they were dyad, but they weren't able to use their potential to the fullest. It's saying like Anakin is strongest person in Episode I, because they discovered he has higher midichlorian number than even Yoda has. That doesn't work like that.

    We literally see Rey defeated a stronger Sidious in a same way that Windu did, by deflecting his Force lightning, and by hearing Windu's + other Jedi's voices.

    Kenobi also get close to Jango several times, but he still failed to take him down. Jango still had his blaster, but he failed to protect himself, he get blitzed by Windu. Denying this won't get you anywhere, Windu is a very powerful Jedi. Even in Episode II, Anakin said this;
    Anakin: "Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu.".

    Windu was so powerful that, Anakin uses him as a reference to being a powerful Jedi. He uses Windu to hype Kenobi's power. That's how Windu was powerful. In the latest Clone Wars comic book, they said Windu is top 5 Jedi knights of all time in the Jedi history.
    Rissa Mano: ''He is a top five Jedi Master of all time for sure!''
    Source: Jedi of the Republic - Mace Windu #01 (2017)

    As I said, denying Windu's abilities as a Jedi, won't get you anywhere. He was powerful enough to do that.

    Sidious didn't have to shut it what? He couldn't shut it before Windu deflected back his lightning as well. It's the same thing. It's the same Force lightning deflection. The difference is Rey didn't knock him down like Windu did, Rey was heavily wounded and she sacrificed herself, while Windu just get by a little of his lightning, Windu wasn't going to die like Rey did. He was in control of the situation better than Rey. You're still denying the obvious Sidious69...
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  21. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    LOL again you ONLY want to hear certain parts and DISREGARD THE REST.

    Yeah he was joking in the beginning and then said:

    “But the whole idea was to..once again it was the stage of temptation of Anakin...it was for his benefit.”

    “But it was again part of the process leading to the fact that poor old Palpatine was now going to be attacked by this much younger person...and that Anakin might find that vaguely objectionable.”

    That’s his answer to a direct question on wether he threw the fight or not.

    And you use what Anakin said to Padme about Mace?? LOL

    Dude he was just saying Obi-Wan was as wise as Yoda BUT NOT AS Powerful as him Because he is ONLY as Powerful as MACE.

    Thats like saying The Flash is as Fast as Superman and as strong as Batman.

    So now you’re saying ....you see The Batman is known for his strength. LOL

    Nope ...that s just saying that The Flash is as fast as Superman BUT he is NOT as Strong as him FOR he is ONLY as Strong as Batman.

    Here’s a quote for you:

    “To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are NOT.” Yoda to Obi-Wan who is as powerful as Mace.

    Here’s a simple chart of the quote Anakin said and what Yoda said.

    Sidious = Yoda > Obi-Wan = Mace

    Again .....what do you think his master plan is...of getting the Senate and Anakin to believe that the Jedi are the evil ones???? Hmmm

    If you say oh he will just say what he wants and no need for explanation....Well then he could have Order 66 the moment he had the Clones in Episode 2.

    If Mace was so great....he surely couldn’t do anything to lightning fast Palpatine when he was chopping down his friends in front of him....Hahahaha yup Anakin was right....he is ONLY as STRONG as Obi-Wan.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  22. The Maverick

    The Maverick Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2020
    yeah if Kaminoans were ethical beings :p

    in all seriousness though

    In answer to the original question, probably not.

    Naboo elected a senator, the Republic elected a chancellor. From then on there was nothing the Jedi could have done except maybe not get involved in fighting in the first place. But even that is a long shot.

    The good guys created a monster (Naboo + Republic + Senate)
    detached Capitalism made immoral decisions
    and Jedi decided to be soldiers and not peacekeepers


    The GFFA like the society we live in now on Earth is not black and white, it's grey.
     
  23. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    And where does he confirm he threw the fight? This doesn't say he threw the fight. He says ''it'' was the stage, it was not Sidious's stage, I've no idea how you are understanding what he says, it's obvious that was a stage that everyone knows, it was for Anakin but that doesn't mean Sidious prepared it personally. Windu caused that stage by defeating Sidious. Which Anakin knew it from the beginning, that's why he went to save Sidious.

    He doesn't say anything about throwing the fight.

    You think Anakin doesn't understand about the power levels, so he doesn't understand Sidious can actually beat Windu's team, so he went there to save Sidious without knowing Sidious can actually beat them? No. Why did Anakin go there? Because Anakin knew Windu could kill Sidious, that's why Anakin was worried, he knew Windu was strong enough to do it if he doesn't interfere. But in your mind, Anakin still doesn't understand about Sidious's power (but it looks like you know better than Anakin) and Anakin was worried because he couldn't actually understand Sidious's real power, and Anakin doesn't understand Sidious could actually defeat Windu without his help.

    It's not really believable. Not only Anakin is actually an intelligent clone wars general, he also has the Force, where he can feel what will happen and he can feel how powerful and how skilled a Force user is.
    He doesn't say Obi-Wan is not as powerful as Yoda. LOL. I've no idea how you are making up all of these out of nowhere Sidious69, your devotion to Sidious is really admirable as a fan. But it doesn't really make sense when you are making up excuses for him.

    Anakin knows Obi-Wan isn't actually as wise as Yoda as well, but he is just giving him a credit for being a good and wise teacher. That's just a figure of speech. I can't believe you actually don't understand what this line actually means or you're pretending to be a person who doesn't understand a simple figure of speech. Anakin is not talking about the actual power levels there. He is just giving him a credit about how powerful Kenobi is, because being compared to Windu in terms power, is a huge credit just like being compared to Yoda in terms of being wise. Obi-Wan is also not as wise as Yoda. That's just Anakin's hyperbole. And Kenobi is not actually as powerful as Windu, that's just for giving a credit to Windu.

    Windu is powerful, and he is only second most powerful Jedi in the order, that's only because of Yoda is being number 1. He is better than every Jedi (includes Kenobi and even Anakin) basically except for Yoda.

    Nick Gillard : ''We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda...''
    Source: Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette (2002)

    ''He seems to be second most powerful jedi on the that council, next to Yoda.''
    Source: Star Wars Insider #55 (2001)


    And you don't accept Lucas's quotes when he says you need to be Windu or Yoda to compete with Sidious. Lucas is not deciding the canon anymore, that's a different issue, yes when people saying that Lucas said this and Lucas said that about canon is not exactly true, they forget Lucas changes his mind, because yes Lucas changes his mind from time to time, but you really are twisting this fact so you can deny Windu's power here. Lucas said Windu is powerful enough to compete with Sidious, that's a fact, because we see it actually happened in the movie. This is a different thing than something that Lucas said about the canon stories that happened in the movie, because he changed a lot of things. But Windu's power level is not something Lucas has changed, he said Windu can compete with Sidious, and he did. There is nothing more to it, denying this like saying Lucas changes his mind is not being honest really, because it has nothing to do with the actualy canon story where Disney decides from now on.
     
  24. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2004
    Actually those are not excuses...I’m going by the actual movie itself.

    Palpatine has set up his endgame through his conversations with Anakin on how he will get rid of the Jedi Order, Turn Anakin to the Dark Side and a reason for an Empire.

    Again tell me how would he accomplish those goals listed above by killing Mace before Anakin walks in???

    Sidious doesn’t need any excuses....his actions alone speaks for themselves.

    - He can obliterate 3 Jedi Council Masters in seconds with Mace helpless to stop.

    - KOed Yoda “The most powerful Jedi” with his first lightning then easily disarming him

    - All his powerful apprentices who can fight multiple Jedi at the same time Fears the power of Sidious.

    - Maul and Savage was easily defeated by him

    - His telekinetic powers are above level shown during his duels with Yoda and the Dyad.

    - His clairvoyance is second to no one.

    - The Jedi can’t sense he is a Force User

    - The powerful Snoke is actually Palpatine himself lol

    - The most powerful Rey is actually a Palpatine lol

    - I could go on and on....i mean he even came back from the dead

    So yeah Palpatine is the fake disguise while Sidious is the true self.

    Palpatine lost to Mace as much as Palpatine was kidnapped by Greivious and was manhandled by his droids. Lol
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  25. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    You are defending the argument that Sidious is the strongest one there is, he didn't lose to Windu, and he wouldn't lose to any person in the universe, and you believe he is unbeatable. And your nickname tells me that you like Sidious. Sorry, it's not really believable. You are even going far enough to ignore many official statements about Windu's power as a Jedi master, and in your mind he can't defeat Sidious, no one can. And also Anakin can't understand about the power levels, he was worrying for Sidious because he just don't understand that there is no way Windu could defeat Sidious, if only Anakin can be smart enough to see the truth you're seeing it, he wouldn't need to worry about Sidious, because there is no way Windu could defeat Sidious.

    Anakin walks in because he knows Windu could actually kill Sidious. Unlike you believe, Anakin is not really an idiot, and he is an intelligent war general, who can also use the Force to sense things, that's not special to Sidious unlike you believe, both Windu and Anakin can also sense things that happening before it happens, they can also sense how powerful a person is. So if Anakin actually believes Windu can kill Sidious, I would trust his judgement, because he knows that stuff better than me. As well as Windu, when he says Sidious lost, I would believe him, because unlike me, they can also use the Force to sense and they are all experienced, and very skilled lightsaber duelists. But you think they don't have ability to understand if someone lost a duel, or that if someone can actually kill someone or not.

    In RotS commentary, they said Windu brought the ''B-team'' and those Jedi masters were not really skilled in comparison with the fighters that we know. Especially in comparison with Windu. Killing them in seconds only shows their weakness, and it shows their overconfidence because they underestimated Sidious's power and they get killed without defending themselves (except for Fisto). For example; Dooku wasn't more powerful than Anakin + Obi-Wan combined, but he still managed to beat Obi-Wan on that day, and then he lost to Anakin. It happens, just like Sidious beat the others, but then lost to Windu. Because Dooku was lucky or Obi-Wan made a mistake on that day, in normal circumstances, that wouldn't happen. But sometimes it happens. That's how Star Wars is.

    You forget to say Yoda was off-guard, which is why he caught him before Yoda can defend himself. Even Sidious says ''your arrogance blind you'', which was the reason why Sidious knocked Yoda for a while, and then Sidious tried to run away from Yoda.

    Palpatine was in no danger when Grievous kidnapped him. He was a very valuable prisoner, and more importantly Dooku knew who Palpatine was. He was under Palpatine's orders. It's irrelevant comparison.

    Again you are not reading, I know how powerful Sidious is, but no one is unbeatable in Star Wars. That's why other powerful beings like Vader, and Kylo lost to inexperienced Jedi (Luke and Rey) before. And Windu is not even an inexperienced Jedi, he was the strongest Jedi except for Yoda. It happens, there is no guarantee in Star Wars duels, you still don't understand that. Anakin was more powerful but he still lost to weaker Obi-Wan. It's really simple. Vader even ranks higher than Sidious in the canon as a red-lightsaber user.

    [​IMG]
    Source: Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015)

    And what did they say about this?



    Question: ''SW Everything you need to know says Vader is better than Palps''
    Matt Martin: ''I guess it's sort of like sports. One team may rank higher than another but that doesn't mean the lower ranked team can't win the game.''


    I showed this to you before, but you are still talking about how powerful Sidious is, we all know that. But the fights in the Star Wars doesn't work like that, it's not Dragon Ball power levels. The weaker fighter sometimes can win against the stronger one in the Star Wars universe because of the how the Force works. As they said, it's more like sports, sometimes lower ranked team can beat the higher ranked team. It happens. It's really interesting that after everything we've seen and they are still making excuses when it happens.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020