PT Could anything have saved the Jedi from Sidious?

Yes you do have valid points.

It could be just like sports and any given Sunday can happen.

But power levels aside....I can’t ignore what was said before and after this duel. It was masterfully set by Palpatine since the Opera Scene which culminated in the Mace Duel.

And Yeah I’m only playing about Mace...I know he is up there with the top Jedi.

But I never said Anakin was an idiot. I’m just telling you to look at his POV and not the audience’s. He really sees Palpatine as an old man who was going to be assassinated by the supposedly righteous Jedi. Until Palpatine became Sidious and killed Mace. Yoda was right in telling Luke on how his father did UNDERESTIMATE THE powers of Palpatine.

He came there because Palpatine through Voice Over told him that the Jedi will DESTROY HIM then bye bye Padme. He literally told Anakin what was going to happen.

Same thing happened when Palpatine told Padme BEFORE about how Valorum would end up losing his power to save her after she said Valorum is their best supporter. He also literally told Padme what was going to happen.

And yes they called them the B Team but yet in the novel they said Kit Fisto and the others are one of the best Jedi Masters in the Order...that’s why I stopped listening to those conflicting authors and producers lol

Is Sidious unbeatable??? Of course not.....hence why he had to be in the shadows to make the right steps in executing his plans to thin the herd.

The Sequel Trilogy however pretty much made him come back from the dead pretty much making Vader’s sacrifice not as great as before and was only defeated by his own granddaughter only to die herself. Hey I didn’t write it BUT as a Sidious fan you won’t see me complaining about it. LOL

 

Yes. If the Jedi had severed their political dependecy on the Republic and returned to their roots on Tython, they may have not become “blinded by the dark side.” Politics clouded them, the Jedi arn’t suppose to be tied at the hip to the Republic, they are “Keepers of the Peace, not soldiers.” (Mace Windu).

 

Since when being an old man means you are weak in Star Wars? Anakin's greatest rival; Count Dooku was an old man. That doesn't mean he was weak. Yoda himself is a old man, but still he is the greatest and strongest Jedi. So Anakin himself knows very well that the old people in Star Wars can be very powerful, he experienced that personally.

That's one thing, and another is; as I told you before, Anakin even wanted to kill Palpatine, and he said ''the Chancellor is very powerful'' later. So that's Anakin's POV, no where in the movie Palpatine tricked Anakin twice after he revealed who he was. Not only that, Anakin personally see how powerful Palpatine was when Palpatine send his Force lightning to kill Windu, and Windu screamed in pain and it blinded Anakin's vision. Anakin knows how powerful Sidious is. There is no deceiving him twice.

Because that was the truth. Sidious knew he couldn't defeat Windu and his men, and he asked for Anakin's help to defeat them. And he defeated them with Anakin's help. That's how it happened. Sidious didn't need to pretend that he was going to lose, because he was going to lose. And Anakin also knew that, which is why he was worried. And Sidious knew Anakin wouldn't let that happen. That doesn't mean or it doesn't prove that Sidious lost the fight against Windu on purpose.

And that's also because of Anakin. Sidious didn't know Anakin was going to refuse him directly, or he didn't know he was going to tell to the Jedi Council that Palpatine was the Sith lord they were looking for. It was because of Anakin that they knew Palpatine was the Sith lord, and because of Anakin they tried to arrest him by activating their lightsabers first and then they tried to kill him. If they didn't know Palpatine was the Sith lord, that duel wouldn't even happen in the first place.

It's all because of Anakin's inconsistent behaviours, he first refuses Palpatine, and he tells the truth to the Jedi council, then he changes his mind he goes there to save Palpatine shortly after.

Also another thing is that Anakin wanted to go there with the Jedi council, but Windu denied it and he said Anakin should stay in the Jedi temple. Sidious didn't know Windu would say Anakin should stay in the Jedi council. If Anakin went there alongside with the Jedi council, the things would be very different. Anakin would even have to fight against Sidious, so there wouldn't be a scene where he sees that Windu is trying to kill Palpatine, because Anakin would be inside of that fight against Sidious from the beginning. So there are many factors outside of Palpatine's control in there, so that theory doesn't make any sense from many points, not just from one.

So it wasn't long planned, when Palpatine sees that the Jedi is going there without Anakin, he tries to kill them, but he knows he can't defeat them without Anakin, he calls Anakin's help. Because before, he probably thought Anakin would be there to protect him from the beginning, because Anakin wanted to be there but Windu refused Anakin. We even know there was an alternative scene to that, where Anakin was already there when Windu went to arrest Palpatine.

Right here;

Spoiler

They actually shot this scene, because Palpatine actually used Anakin's lightsaber in some point.

I don't know what Valorum has anything to do with this. He knew there was a corruption in the senate, he just used it for his own advantage.

They might be one of the best, but they were still not on Kenobi's level, Fisto himself said he would feel safe if Kenobi was with them. Or Yoda. So the novel doesn't say that they are as good as Windu, Yoda or even Kenobi. So they are actually B-team. Basically everyone would be the B-team, who isn't coming from Yoda-Dooku-Qui-Gon-Obi-Wan-Anakin-Ahsoka master and apprentice line. Only Windu was an exception to that as we've seen.

Well, since you also admitted that Sidious isn't unbeatable, then he can lose a fight to one of the most powerful Jedi master (Windu) in the history. It happens.

 

I mentioned Valorum as an example on how Palpatine moves the chess pieces around.

Same as here beginning when he moved Anakin to the Council. Which pissed off the Jedi And put more tension between Ani and the Jedi.

Palpatine knows they will hate it but still would put him on and make Ani spy on him which he also knew mentioning it to Anakin at the Opera Scene.

IN ROTJ, Palpatine can foresee the future more than anyone even Vader states YOU DONT KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE...I MUST OBEY MY MASTER.

Another chess move he made is saying that he knows where Grevious is And he wants Anakin to lead that hunt.

Cmon!!! Does he really want Anakin to leave Coruscant??? Of course NOT ....these are the manipulations he is known for.

That move made Obi-Wan, the only Jedi Anakin can fully trust OUT OF Coruscant.

Now the trap is set. After Anakin still turned his offer down VOWING TO FIND The Truth even ratting him out to the Jedi....what did Palpatine do?? The manipulator of all the SW movies??? Now The Jedi are coming for him....what did he do???

He gathered his Clone Army to protect himself. Oh wait NO HE DIDNT....the greatest mastermind just sat and waited hmmmmm.

Then Called out to Anakin that the Jedi will destroy him.

The moment Anakin walked in..he sees the defenseless Palpatine with Mace the aggressor again mentioning he was right That the Jedi are taking over which he was telling Anakin since the Opera scene.

But Mace was still going for arrest ...so boom bam lightning then feigned weakness which “GL also said when Anakin walked in well you have that quote”....then Anakin FINALLY CHOSE...then the Real Sidious springs to POWER UNLIMITED POWER!!

The official statement to the galaxy was that Count Dooku A FORMER Jedi has plotted with the Jedi Order to takeover the Republic.

So yeah...Anakin was buying that too....hence his conversations with Obi-Wan at the end.

So Anakin really sees Palpatine as a wise old man NOT Connected with Dooku at all...because that was a Jedi Propaganda that Palpatine has been telling him not to believe.

He sees a politician that can do a little lightning but NOT really a warrior...he never seen him wipe out 3 Jedi Masters in seconds in front of Mace....all he sees is a politician since TPM until it was too late.

Again, he laid out the seeds of the Jedi are planning to take over, that they are the evil ones and that they will destroy him...

Anakin didn’t believe him even offering the knowledge to save his wife.

So tell me what would Palpatine do??? How can he make his lies come true to Anakin and the Senate????

“Losing” made all of his lies conveniently bear fruit.

What does he gain battling 4 Jedi IF HE Can just have all his Army to defend him??

It’s because just like everything Palpatine does since TPM is a SET UP.

“Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design.”

 

Well said.

I am somwhat convinced Palpatine is The Dark Side embodied. When he talks go Anakin after Mace Windu is dispatched, his voice sounds totally different from his normal Emperor voice, as is Bogan (Dark Side) is speakinf through him. Then in TROS when he is able to Force Drain Rey and Ben, and fighting Rey says, “I am all the Sith!” This is because He is possesed with the Dark Side who is in all the Sith.

 

The dark side or the light side doesn't belong to anyone. The Force lets them to use it to some extent, depends on how and for what they are using it, but they never have full control over it completely, not even the Mortis Gods can have that. That's why the Father was stopping the Son. Sidious might be the ''embodied'' the dark side from time to time, but that wouldn't be any different than the other dark siders. You can hear the same echo when Nightsister Talzin talks, or sometimes you can hear it when Maul, Dooku and Vader talks it. For example, when Maul first returned in the Clone Wars and faced with Kenobi for the first time you can hear the difference in his voice.
Sidious is obviously all the Sith when he said that because he was the only Sith at the moment and all the other Sith were dead. Every Force users have their moments, and the dark side let's them to use it, and sometimes the dark side is not allowing to use it completely because of the balance.

Sith Lord Momin explained it that as well before in the canon Darth Vader comic series, you can look at it.

Everyone knows Palpatine is a good planner, Valorum and putting Anakin in the Council thing was obviously his plan. We all know it. The thing is, losing to Windu is not one of them, which is why you presented a theory, and I debunked it by showing evidences that why that doesn't work such as; Anakin's and Windu's inconsistent behaviours, Sidious's Force lightning attack after you think he was pretending to be weak etc.

Again with that seeing the future thing, you're overrating Sidious as if he is an unbeatable being in the Star Wars universe. Yes he can see the future, but every Force user can, and Yoda said it's always in motion and it's hard to see it. And you're acting like Sidious can see every detail and every minute of the future, when we already know he got killed twice and he tried to escape from Yoda after saying he has waited for long time for that fight, if he can see everything, that wouldn't happen right? Or that he could turn Luke, Rey and Ezra to the dark side, and he wouldn't waste his time if he could see the future clearly as you believe, right? Again, there is no guarantee in the duels and in seeing the future. Yet pretending that there are guarantees with Sidious, there isn't.

Sidious didn't plan to fight with the Jedi, that happened when Anakin decided to refuse his offer and he went to Windu and he said Palpatine is a Sith lord, that's when Sidious was cornered and he had no choice but to fight with them. Or he could activate order 66, but that would also mean the death of his potential apprentice Anakin, so he couldn't do that. Also the Clones couldn't protect him from Yoda, so there is no guarantee on Clones protecting him from Windu as well, Windu could still attack him just like Yoda did.

Sidious had no choice but to fight with the Jedi once he revealed himself to Anakin and when Anakin refused his offer. It's all because of Anakin's inconsistent behaviours, it's because of Anakin's choices. It has nothing to do with Sidious's choices. Once Sidious told Anakin who he is, he lost his chance and he lost his ability to choose what to do, he had no choice but to fight with the Jedi at that point because of Anakin. The events are completely about Anakin, but since you like Sidious, you want to see it that it's all about Sidious, you are misreading the whole scenes. It's about Anakin, if he didn't cut Windu's arm, Sidious would be dead. While you want to deny this, and you want to think that if Anakin didn't help, Sidious would still be alive. That really didn't look that way, Sidious made a mistake by revealing himself to Anakin too soon. After that Sidious lost all of his advantages, and after that Anakin and Windu were going to decide Sidious's fate, and Anakin decided it by betraying Windu.

 

Palpatine has been manipulating events and everyone since TPM no matter what kind of behaviors people have. Every move he makes is to make others react to what he wants. He’s not only a good planner.....he’s the best master planner there is in all of cinema.


As for his predicting skills...it’s above most of them. Yoda can’t even sense that Anakin was with Padme when Anankin asked for his advice. Palpatine however, not only does he know that Padme is his wife....he also knows he’s been having nightmares about her dying. He can also sense that Anakin was about to lose to Obi-Wan planets away and way before it happened.


But let’s put his great clairvoyance aside....because he could easily manipulate events without them and just use his great intelligence.


At least we both agree that Sidious is ONE of the most powerful Force Users out there. But you can’t deny he is also one of the smartest person if not the smartest person in the galaxy. You really can’t be The Emperor of the whole Galaxy without knowing how to Side step your enemies.


So again, why did one of the smartest man in the galaxy who has been moving chess pieces in the shadows all of a sudden had a mental lapse and just say yeah **** it!!! Let me just face the Jedi Council for the hell of it. I plan too much..... let me just go with the flow on this one and let’s see what sticks.


How can you say Palpatine was backed into a corner and had no choice but to face them??? He could easily go into hiding and from a SECURE place...direct the Clone Troopers to stop the Jedi Council. OR at least bring a battalion to guard him. And No ....he doesn’t have to execute Order 66 just to move his troops around. So that would save Anakin as well from the troops.


But let’s talk about Order 66 shall we? So Anakin turned him down and ratted him out...why can he just say YOU KNOW WHAT...I’m sick of this...if he’s not with me then join the rest of the Jedi to die....I’m executing Order 66!!! ***** Anakin too!!


But he didn’t....the smartest man in the planet decides to face the the Jedi Council by himself....even though in a reality where Any Given Sunday ....anything can happen... anyone can beat anyone and yet for the FIRST TIME he had enough of planning and decided to just play jazz and improvise.


True... The Jedi could beat the Clone Troopers that guarded Palpatine BUT still ....why give the Jedi an easy way to get to him? At least make it hard for the Jedi...and you mentioned Yoda...on how he still got through...actually the war was over...he had no clone troops guarding him. The troopers Yoda and Obi-Wan were fighting was on the Jedi Temple. No battalion was guarding Palpatine besides those 2 Red Guards...even Sidious said Master Yoda you survived....he wasn’t expecting him like he was expecting the Jedi Council after Anakin ratted him out.


So let’s talk about Palpatine’s great planning no matter what kind of behaviors his enemies have shall we?


Almost Every scene Palpatine have in the PT ...NOT the Sidious scenes mind you because “Sidious” is the actual persona while Palpatine is the FAKE political front he shows to the public to actually move the pieces....well almost every scene Palpatine have ...has a purpose.


Episode 1:


Goals:

• To become the Chancellor

Palpatine told Padme that SHE had to call a vote of no confidence against Valorum EVEN THOUGH she defended Valorum but at the end she does what Palpatine wanted her to do.


Him being a Senator of Naboo gave him a sympathy vote to replace Valorum.


Wow!!! Palpatine is sure lucky that Sidious chose Naboo for The Trade Federation to invade.


Episode 2:


Goals:

• To have his own army
• To have Emergency Powers
• To keep gaining Anakin’s trust

Palpatine was the one that suggested to the Jedi Council for Obi-Wan to guard Padme.


Hmmmm why would he do that??


Anyways ...that decision made Obi-Wan found out about the Clone Army while at the same time finding about Dooku preparing for war. Plus Obi-Wan ‘s apprentice now have a new temptation and a new attachment in the name of Padme who is the Senator opposed to war with the Separatists but was CONVENIENTLY out of Coruscant.


Because now she left Jar Jar in charge and when the Senate found out Dooku is preparing for war....now someone has to call a vote to give Palpatine emergency powers to get that newly found Clone Troopers to become their Army...man IF ONLY Senator Amidala was here.....Palpatine’s LUCK strikes again!!!!



Episode 3:


Goals:

• To eliminate the Jedi Order
• To make Anakin his new apprentice
• To become the Emperor of the Galaxy

Now this is his FINAL MOVE ...his ENDGAME ...his masterpiece ....his Coup De Gras


And now all his scenes about how he’s been telling Anakin that:

• Sith and the Jedi are the same
• Jedi are planning to take over
• They are planning to betray and destroy the Chancellor
• The Dark Side can cheat death

All those above are just EMPTY Dialogues just there to fill some time and just for Palpatine to just talk and talk for no reason at all.


So with those goals above.....how can he make those a reality???


So your saying he was telling Anakin those lies and he doesn’t have a plan to make them reality ....then he just went out of his way to improvise and face the Jedi head on ...ONLY to LUCKILY LOSE which gave him the solution to frame the whole Jedi Order that FINALLY TURNED the conflicted Anakin and a valid reason to the Senate for Order 66 and reason to become an Empire???


Wow Awesome coincidence!!!!


This is the same guy who KIDNAPPED himself so he can find out IF Anakin is powerful enough to defeat his apprentice and if he would use the Dark Side.


More things can go wrong with his fake kidnapping with a war going around them in space than the Mace duel. Yet Palpatine still did it!!


How else can Palpatine turn a goody goody Jedi Anakin and have a valid reason to the Senate for Order 66 and become an Empire??


Tell me. How can he frame the respected Jedi Order???


These dialogues are not empty calories just there to fill some time.


Palpatine:

You did well Anakin, HE WAS TOO DANGEROUS TO BE KEPT ALIVE


Anakin:

But he was unarmed, I shouldn’t have done it ...IT’S NOT THE JEDI WAY


Palpatine:

The Sith and the Jedi are SIMILAR in every single way.


Mace:

He has control over the Senate...he’s TOO DANGEROUS TO BE KEPT ALIVE


Anakin:

You can’t!! ITS NOT THE JEDI WAY


There are more dialogues but I have to rewatch the whole film to get them word for word.


Anyways...Anakin even told Padme, who wasn’t believing that the Jedi would try to take over, that he saw Master Windu try to assassinate the Chancellor.


Again tell me what is Palpatine’s plan to take over???


IF Palpatine doesn’t need proof to Anakin and the Senate that the Jedi are the evil ones THEN he would have done Order 66 way back in Episode 2.


It’s BECAUSE He does need a valid reason for Order 66...he can’t control the whole star systems without the support of the Senate. And the Senate..like Anakin needs valid proof.



So yeah you can believe whatever you want that Palpatine set a goal to frame the Jedi Order BUT doesn’t have a solution on how to do it ONLY to LUCKILY found the answer when he lost.


But not to me .....because it’s all a set up.


Viceroy to Sidious:

Your plan has gone as promised.


Obi-Wan to Padme:

Anakin was deceived by a lie. Palpatine was behind everything including the war.

 

Well, then why didn't he? Sure he had planned many things but at many points he was just lucky and could have lost.
Let's only take the fight with Windu for now. Sidious had no way to be 100% sure Anakin would come rescue him (just barely in time for that matter!!), when Anakin himself revealed him to the Jedi. In that moment by the window Sidious could easily have lost without Anakin's help, Force lightning or not. Windu blocked it with his lightsaber well enough. And as far as I could tell there is a limit as to how long you can use Force lightning at one time (he paused several times when he used it against Luke). Eventually he would have had to take a break - "recharge" himself or whatever - and Windu would have killed him in a split second with one strike. He certainly no longer had any intention to arrest him at that point. It was ONLY Anakin's intervention that saved Sidious from defeat.
Sidious may have been smart, but Windu wasn't exactly dumb either. In a fight he may even have been better than Yoda. His only mistake was he didn't take Anakin's reaction into the equation.

 

Of course he knows Anakin will come.

When Mace told him to stay in the Temple. Anakin stayed at the temple only to hear Palpatine’s voice telling him “If the Jedi destroy me then any chance of saving her would be lost.” That’s when he left the temple to Palpatine.

And Palpatine can sense Anakin was in danger planets away way before it actually happened. Surely he can sense Anakin was coming just buildings away.

And so it was a coincidence that Palpatine lost all of his blinding speed and agility that Mace couldn’t stop even with a 4-1 advantage the moment Anakin was about to walk in???

That is the whole point...you are just analyzing JUST THIS duel when there’s more that happened before.

You can also just watch the beginning of the rescue and not the whole movie and easily say Greivous did kidnap Palpatine.


That lightning to Mace was to change Mace from arrest to assassinate. The whole point was to show Anakin that the RIGHTEOUS Jedi are willing to kill a begging and defenseless old man. They are the no different from the Sith.


But you said NO...Palpatine was going ALL OUT with that lightning to kill Mace.


Let’s measure and compare how much power he was using with that lightning shall we?


How many coherent words did Palpatine say when Mace deflected his lightning?


27


Here they are:


“He’s a TRAITOR!”


“I have the power to save the ones you love...YOU MUST CHOOSE!”


“Don’t LET HIM KILL ME”

(Silly Palpatine... your blasting yourself ...you can just stop)


“I can’t hold it any longer”

(Then he stopped killing himself)


Now how many coherent words did Palpatine say when Rey deflected his lightning??


ZERO!!!!!


The moment it got deflected....Palpatine started bleeding then got OBLITERATED in seconds ....he had no time to even talk or shut it down.


Hmmmm seems like one of those lightning is MORE Powerful than the other. Seems like one was going ALL OUT while the other ....not so much....very interesting.



Lets simplify this ...let’s just see where these NONSENSE Empty dialogues will lead to ...shall we?


Palpatine:

Anakin..you know I’m not able to rely on Jedi Council...if they haven’t included you in THEIR PLOT ...they soon will.


You must sense what I have come to suspect...the Jedi WANTS CONTROL OVER the Republic...THEY ARE PLANNING TO BETRAY ME.


The Sith and the Jedi are SIMILAR in almost every way.


Anakin:

The Sith thinks inwards only about themselves.


The Jedi are selfless...they only care about others.


I’m going to TURN YOU OVER to the Jedi Council.


Palpatine:

Of course you should...BUT YOUR NOT SURE OF THEIR INTENTIONS ARE YOU?


Anakin:

I will QUICKLY DISCOVER THE TRUTH TO ALL OF THIS.



Now let’s FILL IN THE BLANKS shall we??


Pretend your Palpatine, a pretty smart guy...


How can you convince Anakin on what you’ve been saying is true??


How can you make the RIGHTEOUS Anakin attack his Righteous Jedi Family??


How can you have a valid reason to the Senate for executing Order 66 already???


So you say Palpatine’s plan is to KILL Mace before Anakin walks in and just wing it and find another way to convince Anakin and the Senate later.


Or you say ....man those are just empty dialogues to fill in some time!! They don’t matter just watch the duel!!


Palpatine:

Dam that Anakin!! He still didn’t believe me!! Think Palpatine think!! How can I make my lies a reality to everyone???? Oh cmon!!! Mace and the Jedi are here!! Ok let me just kill all of them first then I’ll get back to planning.... Oh no!! I underestimated the Jedi!!! Wait a minute!! That’s it!!! Power Unlimited Power!!!!


If that’s what you believe then that’s what you believe.


But for me, This was as staged as his own kidnapping and as staged as the war itself.


Sure if people just WATCH this duel without the whole movie and without context ...then you can say Palpatine lost and was going to be assassinated.


Just like if you only watch the rescue scene in the beginning without the whole movie and context ...then you can say Palpatine was really kidnapped.


Christopher Lee said in an interview...the difference between Dooku and Anakin was that Dooku was willing to join while Anakin was TRICKED into joining.


Anakin:

I should have known the Jedi were PLOTTING TO TAKE OVER!


Obi-Wan:

Anakin...Chancellor Palpatine is EVIL!!


Anakin:

From my POINT OF VIEW, the Jedi are EVIL!!!

 

Can you use paragraphs please? I am pretty sure that's not the way to post messages.

Obviously, no doubt about that. In fact, every Sith has that ability, didn't you see how good plans that Maul was making, or Dooku or Vader? That's a part of being a Sith. You don't rely on brute force only, you need to be tricky and you need to be a good planner. However that doesn't mean every plans of their would work, or that doesn't mean they are not facing with the things that they didn't anticipate.

They all facing with the things that they didn't anticipate, Palpatine as well. After all, there are many things that he couldn't see, he didn't even know Maul was alive, and he was ''most impressed'' to see Maul surviving, and he was forced to deal with Maul during the Clone Wars personally. And then he needed to deal with Nightsister Talzin personally as well, because he wasn't expecting any of that. He doesn't see and he doesn't know everything.

Not really, there are times that he was ahead of Yoda, but Yoda was also right about Anakin's lost when he said;

Yoda: "Faith in your new apprentice misplaced may be as is your faith in the dark side of the force."

Sidious said Darth Vader will be stronger than both himself and Yoda, but Vader never did, and Vader lost to Obi-Wan. Sidious wasn't expecting that lost. So he didn't predict that.

That's just a one example why Sidious is not an all knowing being, who can see every detail of the future unlike you believe. He can't see that future clearly, just like he didn't see Anakin was going to refuse his offer and tell the truth about his identity to Windu, that's when Sidious was cornered, because Anakin was going to decide Sidious's fate, just like he decided in Return of the Jedi by turning to the light side.

Going into hiding is not the way to rule the universe, when you need to show yourself and show your iron fist to the galaxy, that would only give time to the Jedi and their followers to gather their forces and attack.

And as I said, he had his guards when Yoda faced with him, they can still reach him and they can still fight with him. There is no hiding in Coruscant. And he couldn't leave Coruscant, otherwise the Senate and the Jedi could take the power away from him when it wasn't too late. They didn't secure the other planets yet completely, they still needed a power like Death Star to control the other star systems.

Yes, he planned Anakin to be with Padme. Because he knew Anakin's feelings since they were friends for a long time after the Battle of Naboo, that's not really something he learned by using the Force. So that's irrelevant, that's just obviously a weak point to exploit, just like Vader exploited Luke's weak point (Leia) and he made him angry and he forced him to fight. That's something almost every Sith can do, at least well trained ones.

There are many things that were also out of Sidious's control. He also planned the death of Obi-Wan in the Invisible Hand duel, he told Dooku to kill him, Dooku failed. Then he said Anakin that he should leave Obi-Wan there, but Anakin didn't listen Palpatine right? As you can see, Palpatine doesn't actually control everything that Anakin does. About Obi-Wan, Palpatine failed. About Vader is going to be more powerful than him, he failed. He couldn't predict none of that by using the Force. And these are only happened in the movie, there are also other things that he couldn't see in the Clone Wars, in the Rebels etc. So unlike you believe, Sidious doesn't know the future clearly. He just do the right moves and he expects the best, sometimes he gets lucky and sometimes he does not. That's how it is.

Anakin and Windu was one of them, he just got lucky that Anakin changed his mind after telling Windu about Palpatine's true identity, Palpatine never planned to fight with the Jedi council, he expected Anakin to join him once he revealed his true identity, but Anakin refused his offer. Palpatine even ''begged'' him, but Anakin still refused.

Palpatine: ''Use my knowledge, I beg you! I know what's been troubling you... Listen to me. Don't continue to be a pawn of the Jedi Council! Ever since I've known you, you've been searching for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi ''

Then Anakin changes his mind after sensing that Windu could actually kill Palpatine, and then he saved Palpatine's life. Unlike you believe, Anakin can actually know the fact that there are no guarantees in duels in the Star Wars, and he also know that Windu was strong enough to kill Palpatine, that's why he was worried, but you are still ignoring that fact, and you think Anakin is someone who can't understand Windu could actually kill Palpatine.

 

Yeah I told you he is not a god even though TROS made him come back to life rag dolling the Dyad and Short Circuiting the entire Rebel Ships.

But he doesn’t have to be a god to manipulate nor foresee the situations. Yeah he has objectives that didn’t come to fruition BUT his overall MAIN goals were accomplished. From becoming Chancellor to having Emergency Powers to finally becoming The Emperor.

But exactly..You said it.. he knows people’s weakness ....he doesn’t have to be the most powerful or the top clairvoyant....He like Lex Luthor or any other stereo typical villainous genius used his brain instead of his powers.

He was making Anakin do what he wanted him to do most of the time. He made him kill Dooku who is unarmed which made Anakin feel bad about that. Yet he couldn’t make Anakin leave Obi-Wan in the ship.

So Palpatine learned. He knows Anakin would use the Dark Side yet he is still Righteous and doesn’t want to kill his Jedi Family.

The moment Anakin walked in ....he knows Anakin will not let him die for these 2 reasons.

1. He knows if Palpatine dies then Padme dies.

2. Anakin is still righteous and will not allow someone to kill a defenseless begging old man.

So he can do whatever to Mace now and knows Anakin will save him...he doesn’t have to use his clairvoyance at all.

Again...it’s NOT about who is the most powerful ...it’s about Palpatine’s character on how he has manipulated everything.


Palpatine:

Anakin..you know I’m not able to rely on Jedi Council...if they haven’t included you in THEIR PLOT ...they soon will.


You must sense what I have come to suspect...the Jedi WANTS CONTROL OVER the Republic...THEY ARE PLANNING TO BETRAY ME.


The Sith and the Jedi are SIMILAR in almost every way.


Anakin:

The Sith thinks inwards only about themselves.


The Jedi are selfless...they only care about others.


I’m going to TURN YOU OVER to the Jedi Council.


Palpatine:

Of course you should...BUT YOUR NOT SURE OF THEIR INTENTIONS ARE YOU?


Anakin:

I will QUICKLY DISCOVER THE TRUTH TO ALL OF THIS.



Now let’s FILL IN THE BLANKS shall we??


Pretend your Palpatine, a pretty smart guy...


How can you convince Anakin on what you’ve been saying is true??


How can you make the RIGHTEOUS Anakin attack his Righteous Jedi Family??


How can you have a valid reason to the Senate for executing Order 66 already???


So you say Palpatine’s plan is to KILL Mace before Anakin walks in and just wing it and find another way to convince Anakin and the Senate later.


Or you say ....man those are just empty dialogues to fill in some time!! They don’t matter just watch the duel!!


Palpatine:

Dam that Anakin!! He still didn’t believe me!! Think Palpatine think!! How can I make my lies a reality to everyone???? Oh cmon!!! Mace and the Jedi are here!! Ok let me just kill all of them first then I’ll get back to planning.... Oh no!! I underestimated the Jedi!!! Wait a minute!! That’s it!!! Power Unlimited Power!!!!


If that’s what you believe then that’s what you believe.


But for me, This was as staged as his own kidnapping and as staged as the war itself.


Sure if people just WATCH this duel without the whole movie and without context ...then you can say Palpatine lost and was going to be assassinated.


Just like if you only watch the rescue scene in the beginning without the whole movie and context ...then you can say Palpatine was really kidnapped.


Christopher Lee said in an interview...the difference between Dooku and Anakin was that Dooku was willing to join while Anakin was TRICKED into joining.


Anakin:

I should have known the Jedi were PLOTTING TO TAKE OVER!


Obi-Wan:

Anakin...Chancellor Palpatine is EVIL!!


Anakin:

From my POINT OF VIEW, the Jedi are EVIL!!!

 

You are mixing up things here.

Sidious was obviously trying to separate Anakin from the Jedi Council, that doesn't mean = losing a duel to Windu after killing Windu's friends and after trying to kill Windu again with Force lightning again, and then pretending that he lost on purpose to arouse pity for himself in front of Anakin and forcing Anakin to cut Windu's arm. Sidious already killed 3 Jedi, and then he tried to kill Windu with Force lightning again, no one is going to buy that Sidious is a helpless person at that moment, especially not someone as smart as Anakin.

Sidious was pretending to be weak so Windu could spare his life. ''Don't kill me please. I am too weak.'' So he could get away in the Senate courts, since they were in his pocket. As Windu said, he was controlling the senate and the courts. But once Anakin cut Windu's arm, that was even better for Sidious. He both get rid of Windu and Anakin joined to the dark side.

Palpatine was just hoping that Anakin would leave the Jedi Order on his own, because that's how he planned. Anakin was frustrated with the Jedi council, and he lost his faith in them. But somehow he still refused Palpatine when Palpatine reveleaved his identity, and Anakin went to Windu to say that who Sidious was. That was even a surprise for Windu, Anakin surprised Windu. He said ''If what you've told me is true, you will have gained my trust.'' If that was even a surprise for Windu, how could even Sidious predict that Anakin was going to refuse and tell the truth about Sidious to Windu? If Windu doesn't even trust Anakin, why would Sidious know that Anakin was going to refuse his first offer to join him? He couldn't know that. So he actually thought Anakin would join him when he first reveleaved his identity, but he was wrong and he made a mistake.

After that Sidious was already ready to kill Windu, and he actually did that. With Anakin's help or not, Anakin joining him was the best thing he could hope for at that moment, he was just trying to save his life and begging that Windu shouldn't kill him. If Windu decided to spare Palpatine's life, Anakin wouldn't join him in there, instead it would happen in the future again. But Anakin was going join either way.

You are just too focused on that scene, as if that was the only way for Anakin join. There were many ways for Anakin to join, he didn't need to see Windu was going to kill Palpatine. If Palpatine won, Anakin would still join him, but in the future, once he realized that the Jed council tried to assassinate the Chancellor, and once he sees that there is no way he could save Padme, he would join.

 

Wether Anakin believed Sidious was faking or not..Mace was going to kill a defenseless begging old man. That’s not the Jedi way. Either way...he will have to save Palpatine.

And no ...if Palpatine killed Mace..he will not join Palpatine. He was there TO HELP Mace ARREST Palpatine NOT to join Palpatine. In ROTS commentary, Anakin’s plan was to jail the Sith Lord while still trying to extract the power to save Padme...he was trying to have his cake and eat it too.

Anakin was righteous...he doesn’t want to be on the evil side....until he saw what Mace was going to do....an un jedi like move to kill a begging old man which Palpatine has been telling him.

Again give me other reasons for Anakin to turn. He went from what have I done?? To killing Jedi Younglings. Anakin had to believe that the Jedi are the evil ones and what he was doing is the right way. He’s not the villain...The Jedi are ...with their Evil plot.

Of course Anakin had to see it himself that a Jedi was willing to do what a Sith would do. The battle was OVER ....Palpatine gave up ...now you can jail him BUT Mace went for execution instead. And that was the point....Anakin didn’t believe Palpatine before SO Palpatine had to show him the proof.

You can’t just have dialogues of Jedi Plot trying to takeover Before this...then NOT show the Jedi actually doing it.

“I saw Master Windu try to assassinate the Chancellor myself.”

“And the Jedi rebellion has been foiled.”

“The attempt on my life...has left me scarred and deformed.”

“Your plan has gone as promised my lord.”

“Anakin was deceived by a LIE, we all were. Palpatine is behind EVERYTHING including the war.”

“I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over.”

“From my point of view the the Jedi are evil.”

You see there is no other way to TURN Anakin unless he knows “think” That he is in the right.

Palpatine like always has used that to his advantage.

If Palpatine kills Mace....then as a Jedi...the Hero...it’s Anakin’s duty to stop Palpatine....he may not try to kill him because of the Padme thing BUT he will Definitely not murder His whole Jedi Family either he will try to jail him.

Palpatine doesn’t want to get it that far...so he knows the moment Anakin walked in ...and he was unarmed and on the floor...he knows Anakin would not let him die.

 

Anakin already made his mind before seeing that Windu was going to kill Palpatine. He knew he shouldn't go there, because Windu said ''For your own good, stay out of this affair. I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgement.''

This was way before the duel between Windu and Palpatine, Anakin was already close to joining to the dark side, he didn't choose it by accident. And before going there, you can see this;



He went there with the intention of saving Palpatine, and he knew what he was doing was wrong. Which is why he was crying.

He didn't just decide that after seeing Windu is trying to kill Palpatine, he already made his mind. If Windu was dead, he would also say that the Jedi try to assassinate the Chancellor which is why he joined Palpatine, which is the same thing he said. You should really stop acting like Anakin wasn't going to join Palpatine until he see Windu is trying to kill Palpatine. He was going to join one way or another, when Windu tried to kill Palpatine, Anakin revealed his true nature and he saved Palpatine, Anakin actually made his mind in that scene before the duel (where he cries) so he didn't even know that Windu actually defeated Sidious yet.

And you are still repeating that nonsense about ''old man'', this is Star Wars universe, and Anakin's greatest rival was an old man; Count Dooku. Just because he is old, that doesn't mean he was defenseless or weak, Anakin personally knows that very well.

 

“What have I done???”

That was Anakin’s first words when Palpatine killed Mace.

Does that sound like a guy who has made up his mind to join Palpatine when he walked in???

He was crying at the temple because of his conflicted feelings ....like I said ....he wants to use the Dark Side...BUT was not ready to massacre his whole Jedi Family. But first things first...he had to make sure the Jedi are going to arrest Palpatine and not assassinate him like Palpatine has been saying.

And yes all his life ...he knows Palpatine as a wise OLD man and NOT a Bad ass old man like Dooku. He just recently found out that Palpatine was a Force User. He has never seen Sidious in action....so yeah he only sees Palpatine as a politician who has knowledge of how to save his wife.

If Anakin was willing to join Palpatine THEN why report him at all??? And if it’s that easy...then Palpatine could have Order 66 the moment Anakin ratted him out. Why face the Jedi Council when he can just obliterate them at any time?? Anakin will turn anyways like you said.

The point is whatever ways to turn Anakin....the Jedi Takeover Plot is what’s in the movie.

- The seed was planted that the Jedi are evil and will attempt to takeover killing the Chancellor.

- Anakin didn’t believe it

- So Palpatine had to PROVE IT

Simple progression.

Unless your progression is

- Jedi Plot seed planted

- Anakin didn’t believe it

- Palpatine don’t want to prove it and go in a different route but then loses which LUCKILY end up proving it.

If that’s what you think then to each his own

Either way....Mace got obliterated and Palpatine becomes Emperor and Purged the Whole Jedi Order.

 

Before he does that, he says ''I need him'' which reveals Anakin's true intentions.





As I said, Anakin already made up his mind by saying that ''I need him.'', so he reveals that ''Jedi shouldn't kill'' was just an excuse for protecting Palpatine, Anakin's true intention was keeping Palpatine alive, because he ''needs'' him.

Also Anakin has seen Sidious in action. Sidious's Force lightning was so powerful that blinded Anakin's vision. So that debunks your ''weak old man'' excuse.



Right here, Anakin can't even look because of Sidious's power.

 

Yes of course he needs him...we all know that because of Padme. BUT he wasn’t ready to be evil and massacre his whole Jedi Family at the same time. That was his conflicted problem.

He also said:

“He must stand trial!!“

“It’s NOT the Jedi way!”

So he was ready to help Mace to arrest Palpatine that is why he was shocked when Mace decided to kill Palpatine instead.

That does not sound like a guy who have decided to join Palpatine...he even said “What have I done??”

If his mind was already made up to join Palpatine ...then the moment he walks in ....he would have attacked Mace Or attack Mace the moment Palpatine and Mace were on a deadlock.

And yes he saw Palpatine’s lightning BUT at the same time Palpatine was getting blasted by it saying “Don’t Let him Kill me” and then suddenly went on begging for his life.

Anakin ONLY intervened the moment Mace was going to kill Palpatine.

You see the audience has the luxury of knowing that Anakin does become Vader. So you’re already assuming he made up his mind when came in. But he didn’t....he was still conflicted....he wants to save Padme but not be evil.....hence why he TURNED DOWN Palpatine in the first place. If Palpatine had him at “I can save Padme” then why rat him out in the first place??

When Palpatine makes him Vader ...he says:

“Because the council did not trust you my young apprentice...I believe your the only Jedi with NO KNOWLEDGE of this PLOT”

Really still with that PLOT.!!??? Anakin already made up his mind Palpatine!! You had him at hello.

It’s because he didn’t.

His conversations with Obi-Wan alone states that Anakin has been LIED TO.

 

Anakin wasn't ready, but he was going to be ready one way or another. That's the point.

While you think that was the only way or that if Palpatine killed Windu, Anakin wasn't going to join. That makes no sense, as long as Padme was there, Anakin was going to join. Anakin's fate was sealed, with Windu or without Windu. So there was no need for Palpatine to risk a fight against the Jedi, also he has no choice but to fight with the Jedi at that point.

Palpatine started to beg again once he realized that he can't overpower Windu with his Force lightning, at the beginning he said ''No, you will die!''. then Windu screams in pain, Palpatine says ''he is a traitor!'', then Windu overpowers him and he says ''he is the traitor!'' by screaming in pain but he still manages to overpower Palpatine's lightning and Windu wins AGAIN. Then Palpatine starts asking help from Anakin by telling that he has the power to save the one he loves, and he starts to begging at the same time while Windu deflects the Force lightning back at him and Palpatine gets wounded (just like when Rey deflected it). And Anakin sees this second fight between Windu and Palpatine, while you say Anakin doesn't see any fight or that he doesn't understand Sidious's power and he was deceived for the second time, which makes absolutely no sense.

 

No his fate wasn’t sealed. The only time he made a move on Mace was when Mace was going to kill Palpatine.

Again if it was all about Padme....why not join Palpatine the moment he asked him too?? Why rat him out in the first place??

Because Anakin is a righteous being. He is all for Justice and what is right. He wants to save his wife BUT NOT at the expense of being evil executing Younglings...The moment he saw Mace not being righteous is when he struck.

That is the whole villain plot formula.

First stage was to frame the Jedi.

Middle Stage was for the one you are telling it to doesn’t believe it

Final stage to show The Proof.

So you’re just saying to forget about those empty dialogues about what Palpatine was telling him that the Jedi are plotting to take over and the Jedi and Sith are the same???

Of course he needed the Jedi to look like the evil ones for his plan to work. That was the pay off for all those dialogues that was said since the beginning.

IF the Senate and Anakin were going to follow whatever Palpatine said THEN why wait for Order 66???? The Clones were ready since day one.

Making Palpatine the victim of the Jedi has to happen.

Ok so Anakin saw Palpatine do some lightning BUT then he gives up. Wether Anakin thinks Palpatine is FAKING OR NOT is moot Because Mace was going for the kill...And that’s check mate. Because we all know killing Palpatine is also killing Padme. Mace doesn’t even know about Padme.

Once Anakin finally chose then it’s game over the REAL Lightning comes out...yelling Power Unlimited Power!!! Gee I wonder why Palpatine said that while OBLITERATING MAce out of existence.

 

Yes, it was sealed. Both Sidious and Maul said Anakin was the new apprentice.







Both Windu and Yoda said they were not trusting to Anakin.




Because Anakin couldn't let go of his attachments (Padme) and he was an easy target for the Sith.

There was no need to fight with Windu and even pretend (according to you) to lose against him LOL. Anakin was going to join one way or another.

 

Oh so now we’re going with Maul’s and Sidious’ HOPEFUL Opinions LOL

Like you said anything can happen...Palpatine was just having positive thoughts and like you said Palpatine said that Vader will become more powerful than he and Yoda which of course DID NOT HAPPEN.

If Anakin was willing to turn just like that THEN why make up that the Jedi are evil and they have this plot to take over betraying him?

Palpatine could just Say ...Anakin I can save your wife and I hate the Jedi so I will massacre them because they are in my way...you down??

Anakin: Yes my Master

LOL you see its you who is not giving Anakin and the Senate any credit at all making them follow Palpatine without VALID reasons whatsoever.

Why would he even let Grevious kidnap him falling through space and war going around him????

Same reason he let Mace LOOK LIKE the assassin.

It’s all on Anakin’s behalf.

Palpatine learned his lesson when he told Anakin to leave Obi-Wan behind. And Anakin said NO.

Righteous Anakin was willing to kill an unarmed Dooku BUT still will NOT betray his Righteous Jedi family.

So he made up the Jedi Plot

And then he present it to Anakin

Then finally he has to prove it to Anakin

Then BOOM Anakin becomes Vader and Palpatine becomes Emperor.

Wether Anakin will eventually turn later anyways...Sidious wanted him NOW and that was the way to get Anakin off the FENCE

 

It's not hopeful opinions, Maul has seen in the Force, and Sidious too. The Son himself showed the future to Anakin. It was sealed from the beginning when Qui-Gon died.



So stop with that excuses.

You admitted that Anakin doesn't listen Palpatine all the time, like he didn't leave Obi-Wan behind. He could easily listen Windu and he wouldn't go to the Chancellor's office, or he could be too late. There was no guarantee. That's the part that doesn't make sense. And then Sidious already tried to kill Windu by using Force lightning, but you are still making excuses for that too. If Sidious was pretending to lose the fight, he wouldn't attack Windu by saying ''no, you will die!'', he only started to begging after realizing that Windu can overpower his Force lightning (just like Rey did). If Windu failed to deflect his Force lightning, Sidious would just kill him right there without needing Anakin, and Anakin couldn't say anything about it. And he would join one way or another, he could also join there again, by admitting that the Jedi tried to kill Palpatine, and Palpatine killed Windu (which actually happened). There was no need a fight between Windu and Palpatine, Anakin already went there because he already made up his mind. (the where he cries in the Jedi temple) and you are ignoring this too, making excuses for it too.

 

“What have I done???”

Said by a remorseful Anakin.


Does not sound like a guy who was going to kill Mace and join Palpatine the moment he walks in?

The moment Palpatine was calling for Anakin’s help THEN Anakin would have killed Mace right then and there. BUT he didn’t UNTIL Mace was going to kill Palpatine without a trial....”That’s not the Jedi way”

Oh so it was sealed huh??? Then why bother planning??? why KIDNAP Himself??? Why bother telling Anakin about Jedi Plot??? Why bother telling Anakin about saving Padme???

That lightning to Mace was to change Mace from arrest to assassinate. The whole point was to show Anakin that the RIGHTEOUS Jedi are willing to kill a man who just got defeated. They are no different from the Sith.


But you said NO...Palpatine was going ALL OUT with that lightning to kill Mace.


Let’s measure and compare how much power he was using with that lightning shall we?


How many coherent words did Palpatine say when Mace deflected his lightning?


27


Here they are:


“He’s a TRAITOR!”


“I have the power to save the ones you love...YOU MUST CHOOSE!”


“Don’t LET HIM KILL ME”

(Silly Palpatine... your blasting yourself ...you can just stop)


“I can’t hold it any longer”

(Then he stopped killing himself)


Now how many coherent words did Palpatine say when Rey deflected his lightning??


ZERO!!!!!


The moment it got deflected....Palpatine started bleeding then got OBLITERATED in SECONDS....he had no time to even talk or shut it down.


Hmmmm seems like one of those lightning is MORE Powerful than the other. Seems like one was going ALL OUT while the other ....not so much....very interesting.

 

Yes, if it's even a surprise for Anakin, how can Sidious even predict that? Are you serious right now? As I said, it doesn't make any sense. Sidious is not all knowing, he makes the right moves and he expect the best, sometimes it doesn't work. Dueling against the Jedi was not one of them, especially pretending to lose when he obviously tried to kill Windu again with Force lightning.

Nope, it was for killing Dooku. Palpatine himself planned to kill two people, Dooku and Obi-Wan. If Dooku won, he was going to let Anakin go, if Anakin won, he was going to let Anakin to kill him. He didn't know who is going to win as well (Dooku or Anakin).

Yes, which is why the Son showed his future where he turns to the dark side. That's not bothering, that's how it is. They told this before, once Qui-Gon dies, Anakin was vulnerable to the dark side. As they said, Qui-Gon was fighting for Anakin's future and he failed. Then Anakin was going to turn to the dark side.

Filoni: ''In Phantom menace, you see these two Jedi in their prime fight this evil villain. Maul couldn't be more obviously the villain. He's designed to look evil. And he is evil, and he expresses that from his face to the type of lightsaber he fights with. What's at stake is how Anakin is gonna turn out. Because Qui-Gon is different from other Jedi, you get that in the movie. Qui-Gon is fighting because he knows he's the father that Anakin needs. Because Qui-Gon hasn't given up on the fact that Jedi are suppose to actually care and love, and that's not a bad thing. The rest of the Jedi are so detached and they've become so political that they've lost their way. And Yoda starts to see that in the second film. But Qui-Gon is ahead of them all. That's why he is not part of the council, so he is fighting for Anakin. So that's why it's the Duel of the Fates. The fate of this child.''
Source: Disney Gallery The Mandalorian (2020)

Again, I've no idea if you actually watch the full movie or are you mixing things on purpose, not sure. I already told you in detail this before, are you reading?

Palpatine started to beg again once he realized that he can't overpower Windu with his Force lightning, at the beginning he said ''No, you will die!''. then Windu screams in pain, Palpatine says ''he is a traitor!'', then Windu overpowers him and he says ''he is the traitor!'' by screaming in pain but he still manages to overpower Palpatine's lightning and Windu wins AGAIN. Then Palpatine starts asking help from Anakin by telling that he has the power to save the one he loves, and he starts to begging at the same time while Windu deflects the Force lightning back at him and Palpatine gets wounded (just like when Rey deflected it). And Anakin sees this second fight between Windu and Palpatine, while you say Anakin doesn't see any fight or that he doesn't understand Sidious's power and he was deceived for the second time, which makes absolutely no sense.

It's all in order. Palpatine only starts to beg once he fails to overpower Windu with Force lightning, not before. It's obvious in the movie, and it's the same in the novel with more details where it says that Palpatine's lightning was so powerful Windu ''barely'' managed to deflect it and it almost bend his lightsaber backward, and Palpatine was very close to killing and disarming Windu. Which is also why Anakin was also blinded because of Palpatine's power, again; someone on Anakin's power level, can't even look at it, it could easily kill Windu.



You on the other hand, purposely mixing the things here, you should see it in order, when you do that you can see Palpatine tried to kill Windu with Force lightning and he come very close to accomplish this without even Anakin's help.

Also I tried to explain this to you before, you don't joke around someone as powerful as Windu during a lightsaber duel, Windu is no joke. You can't fight by holding back against someone as powerful as Windu, otherwise you would get killed. To say that Sidious can hold back against someone as powerful as Windu is nonsensical and it's too far away from the reality. And then we have that Force lightning thing where Sidious actually tried to kill him and he come very close to it.

 

Pro athletes often talk about the game slowing down for them; they can see things that other people can't and thus can anticipate things. I think Palpatine was like that; he always seemed one step ahead of everyone. His overconfidence was his downfall.