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PT Count Dooku,Sith Lord or freedom fighter?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by mihaitzateo, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Dooku's character could have been expanded on as he had so much potential. When first viewing AOTC,i knew where his character was going (thanks in part to spoilers on this site lol) but it was still interesting to see who he was and what he represented. I really hope we get a spinoff with a young Dooku, Sifo Dyas and Plagueis with Palpatine.
    Where Lucas missed the mark was:
    A)introducing Dooku, Sifo Dyas, and Plagueis (Demask?) as disgruntled powerful Jedi who's intentions were good to start a new Jedi order since the existing one was obeying a corrupt government in TPM. Then have them secretly order clones just in time to fight the Separatist(shown as more righteous and some human) with help from the Mandalorians at the end.
    B) This band of Jedi would use their Jedi sabers and no join the Sith.
    C) With Papatine wanting to use their clone army, he turns Anakin against Dooku and with Dooku's death we never get any idea if his plan was what the Jedi should have followed and joined all along.

    But what we did get was a Sith Lord (no discussion there) who got power hungry and went down the dark path which the Jedi refused to believe until it was too late.
     
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  2. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Well he's definitely a Sith Lord, as he was directly training under Sidious as his apprentice, and even thought of himself as a Sith, using the name Tyranous.

    But in the eyes of the average citizen in the CIS he was a freedom Fighter.
    Like Mina Bontarie who admired him (Never mind he went on to murder) it shows he was respected.

    In Dark Disciples he was given the... [face_tee_hee] Raxonian Humanitarian Award [face_rofl]
     
  3. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    One of the biggest surprises for me in the Prequels is the portrayal of the Jedi and Sith not just as good and evil but different sects of force users diametrically in opposition to each other in their beliefs.

    We see what a Sith run Empire looks like in the OT- and it's evil. But Palpatine makes some good points in Episode 3. And the galaxy at large really doesn't understand the force or those who use it. The Jedi were a branch of the government more than a revered religion. They work under a larger bureaucracy with mundane responsibilities that are not clear cut good and evil.
    To most of the galaxy the Clone Wars must have looked like a war between Jedi - with Dooku on one side and the Jedi order on the other. A group called the Sith, whose tyranny ended 1000 years earlier, would mean nothing to the average person in the prequels.

    It's also easy to see why someone would not think Dooku is a Sith. He doesn't look like a monster which the other Sith Lords eventually do. For all appearances he's just a well spoken gentleman. He seems like a honest respectable leader. Most people even working close to Dooku would never know his true nature. That's what makes Dooku so dangerous. And a dangerous Sith Lord.
     
  4. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2002
    It would have been really a mystery had he used his Jedi lightsaber (green or blue do we know?) throughout the films. Obviously he used red as a Sith, but had he not joined the Sith and remained a rogue Jedi, it would've added more intrigue...especially since he told the truth about Sidious. He would have ended up a hero given he didn't try to prolong the war and really had his good intentions to start a new government/Jedi Order.
     
  5. Seagoat

    Seagoat Skywalker Saga and Music Section Moderatator star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Depends on the artist you ask

    According to this comic,

    [​IMG]

    And according to this art for a book (Dark Rendevous, maybe?),

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Host & 14X Wacky Wednesday Winner star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Not Dark Rendezvous. Maybe a magazine, Star Wars Gamer? The image is labelled "Once Allies: SWG4".
     
  7. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Freedom fighter? No.

    At one point, long before we see him in AOTC, he was a political idealist. That idealism was shattered, and replaced with resentment, and a level of anger and hatred toward people (think misanthropy, but toward all sentients) he probably wasn't aware of, leading to his fall to the dark side. When he chose the dark side, he did it with the intent of using its power to "fix" the galaxy, to make it better, by virtue of (by the authority of) his own strength and nobility. At this point, he's an authoritarian, the opposite of a freedom fighter.

    By the time of AOTC, that person was lost in the dark side, and had become the Sith Lord Darth Tyranus.
     
  8. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    I think in this episode it is pretty much clear.
    [​IMG]
    - The Clone Wars Season 3x14 Witches of the Mist
     
  9. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Short answer; both at different times.


    Longer answer- He genuinely believes that the Republic is too flawed to function, but he is also infatuated with the dark side. He has become genuinely bad by the time he shows up onscreen. He is willing to falsely promise freedom to Separatist systems knowing about the aspects of Sidious’s plans for the Empire that he is allowed to know
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  10. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Why does one's face has to change in order to sink into evil? Palpatine had given in to evil a long time before "The Phantom Menace". Kylo Ren never did. I don't see why a person's physical appearance has to change in order to reflect the evil within?

    By the way, I believe Count Dooku had given in to evil before the events of "Attack of the Clones". And I don't think he realized this. Dooku is like a lot of people who commit ugly deeds and who convince themselves they are not doing anything wrong. We've seen this happen to other characters - including the so-called protagonists.
     
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  11. SHAD0W-JEDI

    SHAD0W-JEDI Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    At times, I think the Prequels struggle when it comes to figuring out what tone they are going for, what kind of universe this is.

    In the OT, there is a Flash Gordonesque, fairy tale element at play. In general, evil characters LOOK (and even sound!) evil. Darth Vader, the Emperor, Jabba, Jabba's henchmen, all reflect this. Imperial officers are haughty and snooty and arrogant. Imperial settings are cold and gray. TIE fighters have a characteristic "scream". Storm Troopers and TIE pilots are masked.

    The Separatist leaders may not all be evil, and they might not all "look evil", but overall, the movies didn't give us any (onscreen) idealistic Separatists. For the most part, the ones we spend time with are cringing, scheming, cruel, and villainous. (I'm not even bringing up Grievous, who 100% fits the "evil looks and sounds evil" mold). While Christopher Lee has played a few heroes, he's in the pantheon of movie villains; when he comes on screen as Dooku, it's all but telling you what kind of guy he is (same with LOTR) .

    When the premovie crawl talked about "heroes on both sides", it brought me up short. I hadn't SEEN any. And it would have been interesting, to create at least one genuinely idealistic Separatist leader who sincerely believes he/she is fighting for a just cause, who Dooku deals with in those terms...but that doesn't happen.

    Guess what I am saying is while there are tantalizing hints at a potentially more complex backstory, the Prequels don't follow up, and thus I feel that the onscreen Dooku is wholly evil, but willing to dupe where he can. Its interesting to consider that he may have started out otherwise.
     
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  12. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2002
    So we can decipher that Dooku used his own or (Hugo Demask's) $ to order the clones. No paper trail for the Jedi I guess? You would think there'd be a receipt for that big of a purchase.
    Even 19 years later, i still feel as though having Dooku and some rogue Jedi lead the Seperatist, would have been much more intriguing (see my post above). What a great character who didnt have all the flare when first looked upon, but really grew into a menacing Sith as TCW raged on.
     
  13. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 13, 2014
    In the last year we got a little more info on Sifo-Dyas. Seems George Lucas entertained the idea Sifo-Dyas turned to the dark side before Dooku and was working with Darth Sidious. Sifo-Dyas may have even been the Sith apprentice briefly after Darth Maul. Then Dooku killed him.
     
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  14. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview & Teh Mole Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    He’s a Sith Lord who got manipulated by his master
     
  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Considering that secrecy was paramount, one would think there would be no receipts.
     
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  16. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Cool thread - Dooku had more potential than he was used for. Very interesting backstory with him that we did get though. His scenes with ObiWan in AOTC when ObiWan was captured are crazy cool. He actually tells the truth about Sidious & gives ObiWan an "out" for the whole thing. ObiWan of course doesnt bite but that scene is like "Whoa!". As for his Sith Lordliness: Yeah, he seems to be more on that side of things but again - his revelation to ObiWan certainly shows that he CAN be independent and not full Sith. Sort of.
     
  17. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 27, 2016
    Love the idea of Dooku being a Light Sith and Windu a Shadow Jedi i believe TCW make Dooku more villain than the movies or Legends did
     
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  18. Sauron_18

    Sauron_18 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Dooku works very well as a Sith Lord, and one in the true mold of the ancient Sith, who openly fought for power and control of the galaxy. He uses his cunning to create an army that could conquer the galaxy. And as far as the Jedi and the people of the galaxy are concerned, he is acting just like the Sith Lords of old, waging war in order to topple the Republic and become a new tyrant.

    Of course, we know that the true Sith plan is far more insidious, and that Dooku is partly playing the part of what the galaxy expects a Sith Lord would do. But the mask is also the truth in this case. It just happens to be the case that the Sith are primarily working to destroy the Jedi and push the galaxy further to the dark side.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  19. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2016
    EU Dooku fall is better than Anakin imo
    Dooku fall affect many even Yoda for Yoda Dooku was the apprentice that had more connection with Yoda personally taught him and gave him lessons even when Dooku was not his official Padawan in the EU Yoda believed Dooku was a brillant Jedi so his fall devastated Yoda
    Dooku saw the corruption of the Republic and his breaking point was when he fought Jango Mandalorians and Qui Gon defeat on Naboo Dooku in Revange of the Sith novel wanted to save Obi Wan so he can join his Empire because Dooku believed Obi Wan was his grandson Dooku fall like Anakin could have been prevented
    [​IMG]
     
  20. whostheBossk

    whostheBossk Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Of all the what ifs or other arcs I'd like to see play out, this is one of them. To have Dooku dip his curiosity about clones/army for the Republic with Sifo Dyas at his side, but not handing them over to Sidious. Instead, he stays a Jedi and helps them down the road when they really do need help. Imagine....Dooku, Dyas...and Qui Gon all together fighting...amazing!
     
  21. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Count Dooku was a former Jedi master who left the Order and eventually became a Sith Lord. I suspect that he was the only one who knew the Clone Wars was nothing more than a tool for his master, Darth Sidious.

    Are so many making up these scenarios in which Dooku never became a Sith, because he was a former Jedi?
     
  22. SrWilson

    SrWilson Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2005
    He is neither he is just a pawn for my boy! He was never going to be a true Sith successor and could never go on to live as some kind of pardoned freedom fighter after being made the face of the enemy just a disposable cog for Sidious :D.
     
  23. Eike Starseeker

    Eike Starseeker Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2019
    He was more dark jedi than sith in my opinion.
    It doesnt seem he was so much into the sith stuff.
     
  24. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Why can't he be both?
     
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  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Not sure where this idea comes from. He shot lightning out of his hands and wanted to rule the galaxy, while constantly plotting to overthrow his master with the help of an apprentice. Hard to be more Sith than that.