Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

This is getting off topic, but allow me to add that at least Leia and most female characters in the novels have the decency to put on more than half their clothes on, even when dressing to seduce, something female characters in the comic books consistently fail to do.

 

I'm very conflicted. I want to read this book...a lot. But I have every post-ROTJ novel, from Truce at Bakura to Mercy Kill, in paperback; yet at the same time it'll be around a year before this is released in paperback (assuming it is). Also, my library's reliability on getting new Star Wars books is...average. Lately they've been getting them in a pretty timely manner (they already have DOTJ: Into the Void) but I can't be sure whether they'll get Crucible or not (hopefully they will). So should I go ahead and buy the hardback, and then sell it to a used bookstore when the paperback comes out...or should I just wait, hope the library gets it, and if they don't then get the hardback?

 

I'm the kind of person who needs to own all of my SW books.

I'd say though that you can see if your library gets it and how long the wait is. If it's too long or if they don't get it, then get the book and sell later. I like paperback better as well, but the long you wait the more possibility you'll run across spoilers. If that doesn't bother you, then wait. *shrugs*

It's GOOD though. See if you can get it ASAP from the library.

 

This line has bugged me somewhat the last two days. First - what we see as the 'author's own' fantasies is so very, very subjective. NO author can avoid put traces of themselves into books - but smart authors do it with several layers - plus the reason they do a thing can be very different than the first reason that pops to some reader's mind. I think as readers we need to be very careful with what we accuse the author's of.

Second, in general, I claim that an author is, and should be, allowed to write whatdamnedever he or she wants. That's part of the process of reading books - you confront other views on the world - that's why you get wiser from reading. Getting a bit unconfortable now and then is a small price for the freedom of speach. That said, writing for a special trademark like Star Wars, does put some restrictions on what the author can allow him/herself, just like parents should be able to expect a Disney story to be children friendly. The question then, is, how restricted should SW be? Personally, I favor a certain openness when it comes to sexuality - and think that mentioning a mature woman like Leia as still sexy is positive to the Young Reader's mind, rather than it narrows his/her view on the world. Also, we live in times where (at least in Denmark where I live) people get offended by an increasing number of things - no writer in the world can take everything inot accound - and indeed they shouldn't.

It is a wonderful thing, that young men are aware of these matters, so I really should keep my mouth, shouldn't I It's really, really good that you people react! Only, I think it's also (not equally, but still) important, that things are kept in perspecive. "Sex object" is today verymuch used as soemthing automatically bad. We think people like Marilyn Monroe, who wasn't taken seriously as an actress because she looked like she did and had the roles she had. This is of course a very deprecating objectification. And we do it all the time, still. Not only men. I - a woman and a feminist - found myself watching the newest Star Trek and later when my son asked me about the crew on Entreprise, I completely forgot about Alice Eve. I can't claim it was just because she was the new eye candy of the film - but it's likely that on some level, I just dismissed her, maybe thinking that she'd be replaced in the next film, like James Bond's newest girl. This isn't fair of me, not to Alice Eve - and not to her character. I chide myself for it. But should they have chosen someone else for the role? Someone less pretty? Someone less 'streamlined? Maybe. Or should the film makers have dropped the underwear scene? Maybe. In the name of female liberation, they maybe should. And all the men who did enjoy the scene wouldn't know what they missed and besides, you're all pervy bastards anyway who can turn on something as primitive like a halfnaked woman. My mistake wouldn't be less, though. And Alice Eve shouldn't need to fight for being taken seriously. Nor should any girl I meet in RL who just happens to look like her.



Point is, there is, and will always be, men who like to look at a sexy woman. That should be no harm in itself. Indeed, it's kind a nice that we're two sexes, and that we like to look at each other. The problem arises sometimes when things are completely out of context - but in particular, it rises, when you don't allow the object of your sexualized view a subject - or the ego she/he deserves.



That was my five, well, more like fifty cents.

 

If you get the hardback and you wish to sell to obtain the paperback - which to me is really dumb, you're replacing a superior product with an inferior but I get the collector mindset of having the books be the same size to a degree - you do not sell to a used bookstore! Sell it yourself via Amazon Marketplace, they take a cut but you'll still probably be quids in.

 

Well, if we claim that the author can write whatever they want, while it may be true in a trivial sense, it short-circuits the entire point of criticism if it is allowed to stand as a defense against criticism.

And that's all it is here: criticism. I'm saying that I'm uncomfortable with the implications I'm getting from the author's writing, in much the same way that, say, I'm uncomfortable with some of the moral implications drawn from taking Karen Traviss's writings as a whole. There's an implication about who we're supposed to be rooting for there that I don't care for. I don't care for the implied moral structure expressed in Denning's works either. It may reflect poorly on the author, in an indirect sense, to say that, but we're here for criticism of the works and that's my criticism of their works and what, by my reading, is in them.

And as I said, the problem isn't sexuality per se. I'd be perfectly happy to see Han remarking on the fact that he still finds his wife attractive -- that's appropriate, so long as it's done in a tasteful and mature manner. I appreciate the little domestic romance scenes between Luke and Mara in the NJO, showing that they're still attracted to each other, still in a loving sexual relationship, giving us a little insight into the nature of their married life. Good for the authors for showing us characters who are still in love. I don't object to the X-wing series' rather open approach to sexuality, or to Corran's talking about being attracted to his wife or wanting to make love after being away from her a long time.

The issue is that, in Denning's work, the sexuality has become so particularized that it becomes awkward; it throws off the idea that it's about the story reasons for showing that kind of attraction, and suggests the conclusion that it has to be coming from somewhere else. We get talk about Han digging Leia's still-hot body, but there's no comparable display of marital attraction for Luke and Mara. Leia parades around in skimpy clothes and we get constant mentions of how hot she still is, when other female characters aren't put on display (at least not lead female characters -- the "designated [loose woman]" Alema gets put on display) in the same way. We don't get a comparable dive into anybody's private kinks like we do with the "Leia loves flirting with strangers, and it turns Han on too, and she's letting her sexy alter ego out" scene. It's a pattern of fixation on one character that gives it the sense -- true or not, it gives the sense -- of that character being fetishized rather than written that way for a legitimate story reason. And that's what feels icky.

 

yeah i have 98% of all Star Wars books, but with storage issues i am converting to kindle for now on

 

Just finished the novel and looking forward to debate it after the 9th. Liked it, especially the ending. And is it a spoiler, if I say I don't quite agree in the spoiler's we've had so far?

 

Oh, ye gods, what's the bloody point of having a special thread marked "spoilers allowed" if you lot with the book DON'T BLOODY SPOIL IT?

You want to be courteous to idiots who lack reading comprehension and waltz in here and carp about being spoiled? I give you: Spoiler. Code.

 

i will be getting it in 10 days probably. hope i like it. So did we ever figure out if Crucible is a single or the start of a series?

 

We've always known that it's a standalone.

 

Yeah, that's what they said about DN being a trilogy - people have reason to be wary.

 

DN was a trilogy...

And we know the only other books announced for this part of the timeline is SOTJ... which may or may not be cancelled.

 

DN was a trilogy that ended in such a way as to say: JACEN SOLO IS GOING TO GO DARK, NOW READ THE NEXT SERIES.

To most people, that ain't the definition of a standalone.

 

I see your point, but at the same time I can't see the hardbacks as a superior product. Sure, they're more resilient to damage, but my highest priority is storage space. When I go on a trip and fill a backpack with books, I can fit maybe five, six hardbacks depending on how I'm packing. On the flipside, I've fit as many as ten or fifteen paperbacks in one. Plus I just enjoy paperbacks more anyway; I have maybe ten hardbacks compared with all my other Star Wars books being paperback. So I definitely want it in paperback.

What I'll probably do, given our library's track record, is ask them if it's going to be coming in. If it is I'll check it out, read it, and then if I find out at a later date "nope, paperback's never coming, sorry" then I'll buy the hardback. And the only reason I could see the paperback not coming is something to do with the ST, but even the PPB should be out June-July '14, well before the ST's release.

 

Yeah, really, if your only point in posting in a spoiler thread is to gloat that you have it but won't share spoilers, just save everyone the effort and please don't post.

 

I won't post spoilers because I got a review copy and think it's tacky to post spoilers other than "I didn't like it" in that situation. Just my opinion.

 

"I didn't like it" is not a spoiler, why, which is what I'm more interested by far, probably is. Although even then you can stick to generalities enough to be non-spoiler.

Regardless of what people post I am not buying the book, I'm simply not a fan of Denning but I'm intrigued as to what does happen out of curiosity.

 

I received an uncorrected proof that explicitly states on the non-Crucible cover* to not post reviews until after July 9th. I'm not saying anything to honor Del Rey's request.


*Seriously. I got a PB with a standard cover that doesn't even hint at the real cover. It's sad times.

 

Ah, I didn't realize that. That's good to know for the future!

I'm too goody-goody to do that. *shrugs* I like to respect the wishes of publishers/authors/whomever if something is expected of me.

 

I usually only show respect to people who show respect back.

 

I'll be the first to say it. Better cover than Millennium Falcon.

And you look nearly identical to someone I went to High School with

 

*laughs* I like the "Falcon's" cover, but it was a bit....boring.

And if you went to HS in central New Jersey, it COULD be me! Otherwise, I do have the kind of face that makes a lot of people seem they know me.

 

standalone... hmnn. the end of the big three on it's way???