Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

It's pretty trivial.

 

No, it really isn't.

 

Depends. Is it a hardcover or paperback? Paperbacks probably wouldn't hurt that much.

Or maybe they all own audiobooks. That are on USBs. I'd be pretty glad if someone threw a USB at me; I'd be like "Hey, free USB!" And then I'd just delete Crucible from it.

 

Molestation is never trivial, and you know it.

 

Please explain.
It was one of the only scenes in the history of Star Wars books that didn't physically or emotionally damage someone in some way.

 

Because Denning brushed it off like he does everything else.

 

Going to take a wild stab and guess they were joking rather than actually planning to throw a book at Denning at a venue where they'd be immediately jumped by security and then banned for life.

 

The only reason there's no emotion damage depicted is because that would require the author to acknowledge that what was done was wrong and highly problematic. In the narrative crafted by Denning, that's out the window, and so we're told that regardless of how wrong it was, it's actually really okay because I like these characters and I'm telling you it's okay. Golden had the same issue with her oh-so-romantic domestic abuse scene between Ben and Vestara. These are issues that should be addressed, and should be challenged for the problematic crap that they are, but the authors' lack either the will or awareness to challenge these positions and critically analyze their own writing.

 

Because Denning brushed it off like he does everything else.[/quote]

Didn't Ben & Tahiri fight each other with lightsabers later in the book?
That would be a much bigger issue with them working together than the "molestation" scene. They were actually fighting each other with deadly weapons.

 

I was a 14 year old boy not long ago. I can tell I wouldn't have been complaining. Or emotionally damaged.

And I would much prefer that to the alternative which would have probably involved inflicting tremendous pain with various methods as a means of torture. Would that have been more acceptable to write about?

 

Bingo. If you're going to write a scene that revolves around molesting an underage teenager (and for the record, I don't think that in this fandom there's any justification whatsoever for something like that making into print, but let's just go along with this train of thought for a moment), you had damn well better be prepared to show the fallout and have the spine* to write some real, lasting, meaningful, and harsh consequences. Why? Because something like this transcends any in-universe narrative or reasoning and becomes a huge real-world issue.

Once Denning committed that disturbing and incredibly problematic scene to print, the absolute worst thing he could have done was handwave it away and have everyone from the writer on down to the characters behave like what happened is okay when it very clearly is not. Having Ben and Tahiri team up in this book and simultaneously ignoring what she did to him while he was underage is a very problematic real-world message. At best, it shows a real stunning lack of awareness. At worst, it can, will, and did come off as a tacit endorsement of ignoring and even enabling molestation. Do I think that's what Denning was actively trying to do? No, not for a moment. Is that how it reads? A number of people who picked up this book sure think so and that is a big failure.

*Edit: And ability. I'm not going to judge Denning too harshly on the ability front because frankly this is something many authors across many mediums would struggle to properly address

 

You know, that's fine and great, and I'm happy for you. Really. But your experience and perspective does not invalidate the perspective and experiences of others. When someone else—many someone elses—tell you that they have strong, adverse reactions to the situation being presented and the manner in which it is being presented, you have to face the very real possibility that there is something seriously wrong with what's being offered to us in such a blase fashion.

This is not a clean dichotomy. There is no set-in-stone ultimatum that said we must be given a scene in which there must be a tortuous scene, and the only option is whether it will be physically or sexually abusive in nature. There's also the option for things to have gone an entirely different direction and left that aspect completely out of the final product. But degrading sexuality and torture are proving to be "highly necessary" staples of Denning's collective work.

 

She hardly did anything then touch his leg. And when I was 13 I would have loved to be "molested" by Tahiri. My friends would have gone for it too.Hell I would have turned to the darkside or did whatever she wanted right there at thirteen lol. Kind of a good thing I was not a jedi padawan at that age.

 

I read it the opposite. In letting them team up seven novels later (where we've seem Tahiri go through a tribunal for her acts as Sith), it indicates that they've been able to communicate about what's happened. Let's not forget that Tahiri was DS when it happened (and in SW, that IS an excuse). And that Ben was the one who actually defended her actions already in Incincible, so it's not like he was traumatized and couldn't bear to see her again.

There is a tradition in SW since ANH fot letting the characters go through terrible ordeals without getting visible emotional scars - and for whatever help they might need, for them to get it off screeen. Denning didn't invent that.

 

So if I'm reading this right (correct me if I'm wrong), the problem is that it's unacceptable behaviour in the real-world? And that Denning doesn't show the appropriate consequences?

I agree that's an aspect of Denning's writing, the plot moves quickly and every little detail isn't dwelled upon.

but why THAT scene? We see so many murders, mass murders, horrible wars, evil manipulation and other actions that would not be acceptable in the real world in Star Wars novels (Denning's included), and often the after-effects on the characters aren't explored in detail.
Compared to Ben having to assassinate Cal Omas, the scene with Tahiri is nothing. that's why I'm so confused.

btw, I doubt even 1/1000 14 year old boys would have any kind of negative reaction at all to that kind of "torture" lol, except maybe developing a crush on his torturer

 

"Joking"? On the Internet?

 

I agree exactly 100% I will never get how Americans have no problem with gratiutous violence. But when were talking about a 14 year old getting his leg touched by a beautiful 20 something women, then thats when @*(# gets serious.

 

I don't know I've never been a teenage girl before. I've been a teenage boy and I know I sure would have jumped at the chance to get "molested" by Tahiri.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

While we're switching things up, why don't we make them both 25 years old and in a completely consensual situation. Is it still not okay?

 

Yes, that was my exact point.

 

That. That. That. That. That. It's. Not. Okay. Gender irrelevant but if it helps to contextualize things for those who want to dismiss it, please use this context. Because the topic actually makes me really uncomfortable for a lot of personal reasons I do not want to speak of.

As a side note: it's not as though many of us also forgive Denning's violence either. Star Wars is violent, sure. It can be dark, brutal. I just read Stover's ROTS novelization yesterday and it has plenty of violence. But it's not reveled in. It just happens. I only get so many details as to make the imagery clear. And this is keeping in mind that Stover is pretty high up on the "violent author" list for Star Wars. But he treats it with the cold disdain that it warrants. There's never a hyperfocus on the wounds.

Denning can be quite good at times, and me admitting that is big because I do not give him my money. But he is hampered by his take on sexuality and violence. It was one of the things, outside of what I deemed to be some missed plot beats and characterization issues, that made me look down on this book because there are some fair enough concepts in this book and he does, to his credit, try to do something that feels adventurous but also has the right degree of "alien" to it.

My mind keeps heading to the image of Leia, rage filled (yet apparently one with the Force) stabbing her lightsaber down into Marvid neck and collarbone. It's actually one of the less egregious example in the book vis a vis torture and maiming but it really is illustrative of the path someone like Leia's gone down in the Post ROTJ, specifically Post NJO EU.