Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Which is perhaps why I'm not very critical of authors themselves when it comes writing stories. Much in the same way where I'm not that critical towards actors or voice actors if they turn in bad performances. In the latter two's case, fault in bad acting or voiceover work lies in the director or the casting agent.

Denning may have his faults and foibles, but you got the editors. Just like in comics, editorial mandates could arguably be seen as the true reason for the suffrage of story-telling.

Heck it's probably because of editorial mandate that the Big Three constantly got shoved at the forefront of storytelling and to the point of ridiculousness where the Jedi can't function properly without Luke and they must always get the Jedi's butts out of the fire instead of just letting the big three just lay back on a porch sipping the finest blue milk while watching their remaining offspring live their lives and become true successors.

I'm holding out that Episodes VII-IX will do that if the EU won't.

 

I have absolutely nothing of worth to contribute to this debate, except...

Tell that to George Orwell.

 

Havac - I loved your blog pieces about the Jedi/Sith focus and the ever-shrinking cast of characters in the EU at eleven-thirtyeight.com - and I'd recommend them as interesting reading to others. Very timely, considering the discussion here. I would comment there, but the blog won't let me.

 

Thus far all I've seen are reasoned rebuttals of Sniper_Wolf's post, with The Compeer leading the way, and/or people pointing out the contradiction, and I'd even say the hypocrisy, in his post, which is prominently displayed when he says "The time has come for the Literature forum to be a discussion about Star Wars literature, not half-baked pseduo-crying over Denning or the other dislike author crucified by popular consensus." In one breath he calls for rational discussion of SW literature, in the next he denigrates those daring to dislike Denning and his work as expressing half-baked pseudo-crying. Pot, meet kettle.

Oh, and let's not forget this little gem: "What is myopic? Not the EU, the current state of this entire forum is it." Right. Because, obviously, only Sniper_Wolf objectively knows what the perfect state of this forum should be, never mind the hypocrisy I pointed out, and all of us who disagree and/or enjoy the forum as it currently is are objectively wrong.

 

Classic mistake - assuming a reader will have but one standard of quality and will apply that irrespectively. Denning is writing a Star Wars book, therefore the work will compared to both the franchise it claims to be part of and other franchises, on a like-for-like basis. Due to the book being Star Wars, certain elements will be expected to be and not be part of it. If Denning wants complete freedom all he has to do is write a book entirely by himself. In contrast, anyone reading Donaldson knows it is a work entirely by him and subject to no such restrictions, what they make of it depends entirely on how they find the execution.

As to what you claim you want, there are a litany of far superior and effective options than the ill-thought-out screed you posted. That has pretty much guaranteed you will not get the productive and positive discussion you claim to desire.

You already have! I mean look at your handiwork in post #894 - I don't think anyone jumped on you for liking the book, but then neither did you go and insult anyone who didn't like the book at length!

That's remarkably paranoid of you! C89 and others have posted they found Crucible just fine, but, to the best of my knowledge, no one's jumped on them. It's one thing to be opposed on a topic to an outlook and take issue with it, it is quite another to go and dismiss those viewpoints with the level of contempt and character assassination displayed by Sniper. I'm quite disappointed by that entire post.

 

Since Post ROTJ has stalled, Troy Denning, is moving on to Forgotten Realms, until the status of Post ROTJ EU is settled.

 

Is that true or...you know, not?

 

Works for me.

 

To little to late in the sense that the post-NJO, the Denningverse, isn't Star Wars, but something else called Forgotten Wars.

 

his interviews, and his facebook page

 

Remarkable AND paranoid. Exclamation.

A little overstated, but I would say my "remarkably paranoid" (!) prediction has a solid basis in what happens, generally speaking (meaning there are exceptions), in these boards...and also in response to Sniper's post.

You also seemed to be as guilty of a similar type of hypocrisy you accuse Sniper of. You note how no one has jumped on "them" (not sure who the "them" you are referring to is, by the way), and then you directly proceed with "jumping on" of your own.

I'm not saying I'm not a hypocrite at times. I just pointing that in this instance you are.

 

I'm confused. Who's jumping on what now? I need a flowchart.

In all seriousness, when you post in a place like this, you aren't a target to be attacked and critiqued. Your arguments, however, are. What has gone on here by and large has been a number of comments that have taken issue with the tone and content of Sniper_Wolf's arguments. That's fair game. You'll notice that no one has accused him of being a hack or being putrid or any other sort of ad-hominem attack that skips over his arguments to take shots at him personally.

Within reason you can post what you want, but posting does open you up to having your arguments scrutinized and rebutted. That's sort of the agreement and understanding when you venture into a thread and forum like this.

 

Yeah, I'm not even sure what I am arguing in favor of any more.

But are you really saying people don't take personal digs here. I see it all the time. I also think there is a fine line between arguing a statement and taking personal jabs that's easy to cross. For example, when someone says you say remarkably paranoid things.

I also would argue this group has, albeit unintentionally, facilitated a sort of homogeneous group of individuals with generally similar thoughts and ideas about Star Wars literature. Those who dissented outside of the accepted dissension norm (e.g., Karen Traviss fans) were trounced on to the point where those people just stopped bothering to argue their perspectives any longer (there are, of course, exceptions).

But clearly we are getting way off topic at this point.

 

What the hell is this?

All I pointed out is that those who've liked the book - like Chewbacca89 - have not, as far as I know, been slagged and jumped by anyone! Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not on the board 24/7 and omniscient, but no I haven't seen that.

But then, you clearly think what Sniper's posted is an entirely acceptable way to go on, then fine - you and I disagree point blank. It isn't.

If you consider my expressing of disappointment in Sniper to be akin to jumping on him/her, you can think that - I disagree it's anything of the kind. Others here would have far more cause to respond to that post in a far harsher, though given the style, only reciprocal manner, given the accusations thrown around recklessly.

Then again, you seem under the impression that Lit is a kind a cult of personality hive mind! Again, baffling.

 

You have an fantastic capacity for exaggeration (e.g., cult personality hive mind) and the overly dramatic (you're baffled...really?).

You also like to put words in other people's mouth. I didn't say what you said I said about Sniper's post.

 

Not to overstep my boundaries here but maybe this isn't really a discussion worth having in this thread, yeah?

 

So what should I have concluded instead from your two posts that I've reproduced below exactly?

(my emphasis)

What I've posted is the sense I got from these. Might I have misread or misfollowed what you meant? Quite possibly, it's one of the perils of text discussion. Yet the bolded part is where I got the notion you were claiming Lit has a hive mind, is it that big a jump from your words?

Similarly, you posted:

​

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I simply disagreed that you had or would indeed be "endlessly attacked". You enjoyed the book but you didn't feel the need to lay into those who didn't, did you? Thus no problem. Though I suspect there is a discussion to be had as to how you did that for those who didn't, mode of perception etc. I don't see these attacks arising, but your post gave a clear sense that people would be out to get you - hence paranoia. Is it such a jump?

Part of the reason I'm quite aggrieved by your replies is I was aiming for this: To reassure you that what you feared would happen wouldn't! Instead I get micro-language analysis in order for you to conclude a negative picture! Next time? Clearly the lesson from this is for me not to bother!

My point was Sniper could have posted his more positive take on the book, without ANY of the invective and crap-throwing and it would likely been a much stronger piece. It would have likely given the desired outcome far more effectively.

 

If you must continue this, please do so via PM. Thanks.

 

i actually loved Revan While i do have valid issues with Denning as a writer ( The man has no vision) My biggest problem with Crucible is the retiring of Luke Skywalker before his time. You want to feature what is left of the younger generation ( which there are very few) that is fine, but Luke should still be an important face of the franchise. heck Palleon had page time till his 90's, Dooku was a very powerful active force user in his 90's. Luke is still young.

 

Luke should have been retired as the focus character a decade ago in The Unifying Force. That doesn't mean that he can't participate in stories. And really, to a large extent, he was "retired" during the New Jedi Order series. He wasn't the star by any means, but he did take action at times, and given that he wasn't always involved in the story, when he did become involved it gave it a lot more weight. Having him retired doesn't mean he won't appear in the stories at all, but that he should be like Yoda, directing the action but not always participating in it, except when necessary.

 

I completely agree! I absolutely can NOT see Luke Skywalker retiring when the galaxy is such a mess with two groups of thousands of Sith, Abeloth, Krayt, Vestara, and Sith still threatening the galaxy. In Denning's own last book, he said through Mara that Luke couldn't become One with the Force and join Mara in death and needed to remain in the land of the living. Mara said that Luke was needed in the galaxy since Krayt and the Sith still existed. So what has changed???? Why isn't Luke needed now? They all still exist.

I can understand Luke not taking as many action roles in the problems and conflicts of the galaxy, but why can't he remain Jedi Grand Master? Why can't he continue to lead the Jedi Council and train young Jedi while playing a more background role? Yoda was still a Jedi leader and teacher in his 900's and taught right up until his death. Why not Luke? It's not like there are tons and tons of Jedi knights and so he isn't needed anymore. Luke's Order is still pretty small. Luke is also not all that old in that GFFA. In a galaxy where the average lifespan is about 120 and Jedi can live longer, Luke in his early sixties is still middle-aged.

I don't mind Luke, Leia, and Han playing more background roles in stories, but I don't want to see them totally retire; Luke especially. As Jedi Grand master, Luke should still be very relevant and useful. Besides, who is going to be the new Jedi Grandmaster? Saba??? PLEASE, NO!!!!

 

Kyle Katarn.

 

Kyle is older than Luke.