ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

No, because Sheev was much more cunning than Snoke. Snoke's plan relied upon no one destroying his big stick before he took control over the galaxy. Palpatine's relied upon him taking control before he even makes the big stick. That's why I'm arguing that Sheev actually had more influence in TPM than Snoke did in TFA. Palpatine actually had a hold over galactic power. Snoke had a big weapon hoping to use it to get galactic power.

It really doesn't. Natural systems react reflexively, like the Force.

Again, none of this contradicts anything that I'm saying. Inevitable or not, in the moment things react naturally to stimuli. Yes it was inevitable that the Sith rose and that Anakin would rise to counter it. But rather than Anakin, born of the Force, just happening to rise at the right moment, his rise is the Force's reflex to the Sith rising. That mightn't be your interpretation, and that's fine, but it's silly to suggest that the Force reacting to the darkness rising is outright a contradiction of previous canon.

 

The dark side doesn't actually have the galaxy fully in its clutches until ROTS at the end. ROTS is the movie when it's on the brink. It all revolves around Anakin really. If he falls to the darkness, so does the galaxy. If he overcomes temptation to the darkness it will mean the end of Sidious most likely. In TPM and AOTC the darkness is rising, but it doesn't have the galaxy yet; it's a subtle thing operating beneath the surface. The end of ROTS is when it breaks above the surface, and what was murky and hidden is revealed (too late). In the beginning of ROTS I would say the galaxy pretty much IS on the dark side though in that the war, the corruption, the darkness is far too dominant. It's this illusory state in which the Jedi are finishing a war that was all in service of the dark side and therefore they think that peace is coming, but really they are finishing the process of securing things for the dark side.

Ben Solo isn't the Chosen One, so his fall to the dark side =/= the galaxy's fall to the dark side, but I think his fall was when the murky and hidden things were revealed. I expect shortly after the FO "introduced itself" to the galaxy, and Snoke appeared from behind whatever curtain he was hiding behind with his enforcer Kylo Ren. This corresponds to the unveiling of the illusion in ROTS but is not the complete fall of the galaxy to the darkness. Still the state of the galaxy in Bloodline, and the extent of the corruption, is reminiscent of the state of the galaxy in ROTS to me. So I am not sure at what point in the six years after Bloodline I would say it seems the galaxy is pretty much on the dark side, but by TFA I would say it is (and Luke himself said the Force is out of balance basically after Ben's fall). But the brink of the dark side securing its hold remains and in TLJ Snoke wanting to snuff out the last of hope is wanting to secure that hold.

So where the ST differs is that hope still remains in the galaxy and the Resistance and Rey remain, and these forces that are already countering the darkness are growing (this is what Snoke feared happening and was trying to snuff out by getting rid of Rey and Luke). Killing Rey was the main ticket to securing the hold of the dark side and that didn't happen. But the galaxy itself is still out of balance, and it's still on the dark side, even though it's not as firmly on the dark side as it was post-ROTS, if that makes sense. For it not to be on the dark side, the Force needs to be in balance, and it's not in balance.

PS: I think the Force exists in time as well - saying that it has precognition is like trying to describe it in a linear way. Time isn't linear IMO when it comes to the Force. The prophesy of the Chosen One is old and it comes from the Force in one way or another. This time in which the Sith rise to power and the Chosen One will be born to end the Sith is knowledge that I would say has always been in the Force. The Force isn't exactly sentient like an individual but its the sum total all existence, all time and all space, all life, all consciousness, everything. It's more like Brahman in Hinduism perhaps and less like God in monotheism.

In Rebels when Ezra walks through that temple in the "time travel episode" things from the future and past are all there at once, together, showing the non-linear nature of the Force.

 

Again, your logic does not work for me. The ST seems to exist on the premise that mass destruction doesn't matter, and that is not a premise I am on board with. Sheev had to be cunning because he didn't have a planet-sized solar system killer. You don't have to be smart when you're powerful. But that's what made Sheev so great as a villain. He was cunning as hell to build what he accomplished from scratch.

It does because it was a random moment to activate her, like it was a choice. "Okay, the galaxy has gone long enough these last few years with no light siders as dark siders have amassed great destructive power, so lets go ahead and at this moment make a light sider. But just one."

It's not silly, it's my opinion. It remains my opinion. Rey being activated when she was to counter Kylo makes no sense compared to when and how the Chosen One came to be a thing in galactic history. The type of balance presented in TLJ, this one-to-one stuff, does not fit with the rest of the lore. Where's Snoke's balance?

 

It's interesting that Rey's force sensitivity awakened in response to Kylo and not to Snoke, who was considerably darker and more dangerous to the galaxy. Snoke was a serious threat as he was not only more powerful in the force seemingly but also commanded the destruction of billions.

Yet, Rey was evidently not meant to counter Snoke. He had no true, equal opponents willing or able to confront him. Snoke represented the very definition of imbalance, a monster who was fully dark, but Rey wasn't his match nor was she the one to take him down.

So, I'm thinking Rey's awakening in answer to Kylo's darkness isn't about destroying him. It's not the "versus" situation that it initially appeared to be. Kylo's darkness was not a bigger threat than Snoke's. I think in Rey and Kylo's case, it's about establishing a harmony and balance.

If "darkness rises, and light to meet it" was about one countering and killing the other, it would've already happened. There's been multiple opportunities for it.

 

In ROTS the Sith definitely had substantially more influence than Snoke in TFA. They had control over the galaxy, whilst Snoke was sitting there with his weapon hoping to gain control.

I'm not saying Snoke had no dark influence, I'm saying the way Sheev worked he had more influence. Snoke's plan to gain power was essentially using the weapon and then gaining full influence. Palpatine essentially gained influence first, which means he had more dark influence before he even built his super weapon.

It's not a random moment, it corresponds with the firing of Starkiller Base.

I understand it doesn't make sense in your interpretation, but to suggest it's a contradiction gives more weight to your interpretation than it actually has. I fully acknowledge that your interoperation isn't contradicted by anything. While you don't agree with mine, you haven't established a contradiction only "I don't interpret it that way" (which is fine).

It's not one-to-one balance. Not only do we not know if Rey is the only one awakened, but I never said she was awakened just to counter Kylo. She is awakened to counter the darkness in general (meaning both Snoke's influence and Kylo's).

 

@DarthPhilosopher - I think the simplest way to say what I'm trying to say is that if the Force is out of balance, the galaxy is on the dark side. However, I personally won't really see it that way until it feels dark enough. So I guess I'd say technically in TPM the galaxy is on the dark side if the Force is at all out of balance. It may not be out of balance enough yet for it to feel dramatically dark enough to me when I'm watching. So I think that's where I have this double-speak going on. I also make a distinction about when the dark side hold is secured (which admittedly this is kind of arbitrary). Once Sidious seizes all political power officially and has destroyed practically every Jedi, that is when he has secured a hold on the galaxy. It's arbitrary in that he hasn't gotten rid of all the light, and indeed 19 years later the light makes its come back. But this is a problem all the darksiders face. They want total control that the light can't break, they want to trick the Force or twist it so the light can never break their hold on it, but this is like chasing a mirage in the distance. They can't ever get there, but they all try. Snoke too is chasing this. So in TFA, the galaxy is already on the dark side (Force is out of balance), in TLJ Snoke is trying to secure a hold on the galaxy by snuffing out the last of the light (but the problem is there is never any "last of the light" but like I said all the darksiders have this problem).

However, I see TFA as the galaxy being more dramatically dark since the FO is out there actually wreaking havoc. It's not hidden or submerged like the dark side is in TFA and AOTC.

But if your point is that in TPM the galaxy is technically on the dark side because the Force is clouded and out of balance, then I can concede this point.

 

Yes, the Force is definitely out of balance in TPM.

I'd argue that the galaxy is far more under the influence of darkness at that point in history than in TFA, where the darkness is essentially confined to a relatively small area of space until it lashes out in TFA (causing the awakening).

 

So yes this is where I think the main disagreement is. I don't see the darkness as confined to a small area at all. It's everywhere in the corruption of the galaxy and how the FO has free reign to do all kinds of stuff like kidnap children, devastate Rose's mining world, slaughter entire villages, etc. It's not confined, but blossoming throughout the galaxy. All the crime gangs are already connected to the FO as shown by the ones after Han. Everyone knows about the FO. Everyone knows Snoke's name (DJ included). The Senate hasn't been doing anything about the FO for years already because it's locked up in its own problem with corruption. It's a weak governing body that is letting the dark side basically take over.

 

The revamped balance thing doesn't make sense either way, because if the Force tends to an equal amont of light and dark, then why did it let the jedi dominate the balance for "a thousand generations" ?
Apparently, Luke Skywalker and is non-existing jedi order was more of an obstacle to balance for 5 ou six years than 10 000 jedi for at least a thousand years... That's just absurd.

Rey became this central balance restoring character simply because it was the cheapest way to put her in the Chosen one position. That's about it, I'm afraid. And any new explaination given in the last episode of the saga would feel really tacked on at this point...

 

And I’m saying political influence in a senate is not bigger than the power of mass destruction on an epic scale.

But it doesn’t correspond to the destruction of the Jedi, and yet Rey exists to balance Kylo, not Snoke. Snoke is the one who built SKB. Meanwhile, Snoke, a crazy powerful dark sider, built his weapon of mass murder for probably decades as he mass kidnapped child soldiers with the intent of taking over the galaxy, and the force watched silently. So yeah. Random.

I’m not suggesting it’s a contradiction. I’m stating it bluntly because that is my opinion. Of course it’s just the way I interpret it. I’m not arguing I’ve discovered a universal truth of SW here that I alone understand.

Well RJ says that, and the symbolism of TLJ is all about Kylo and Rey being the same but opposite! They’re equal and yin/yangs of each other! And then there’s Snoke’s dialogue that was pretty blunt and he was talking about Kylo. “I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise.” That’s cool if you choose to disregard that dialogue though. I mean, it’s not very good.

 

There is no logic in new movies, I really don't like Rey as a character - It looks funny to me how she become so powerful when I try to remember training rest of Jedi and Sith.
Ofc she is pretty, but she looks so anemic - when I see her fights its worst than all escape scenes - where troopers cant shot in the target.

 

You kind of need to provide evidence that the Force didn't give rise to Anakin to counter act the growing darkness, rather than just asserting.

 

@godisawesome that's all well and good that you prefer a different interpretation. There's no real debate to be had on the matter because there is no solid information on it in the new canon. That being said the idea that Anakin is a response from the Force to the rising power of the darkness isn't contradicted by anything and therefore can't be said to be a contradiction of established lore. It's not your interpretation - and that's fine - but your interpretation is no more aligned with canon than the 'reaction' hypothesis.

 

No because my point is more specific than that, which I have outlined in detail. If you want to discuss it with me rather than agree to disagree, you kind of need to respond to my actual points and not generate strawmen out of thin air so it’s easier for you.

Your interpretation is that Anakin was created in reaction to the growing dark side. That’s not mine, and no movie states it. I don’t have to argue with your head canon to make my point. Moreover, you’ve ignored outright Snoke’s dialogue that Rey is a balance to Kylo specifically, which has no even arguable counterpoint in Anakin.

 

Firstly, I never said they were an identical occurrence. You said that the very idea that the Force reacts to the growing darkness is a contradiction of previous lore. I said that it's a distinct possibility that thats what happened in the instance of Anakin, and that there is nothing else in canon which contradicts the idea that thats how the Force works. It's fine that your interpretation of the Chosen One means that's not the case, but your premise is that the concept of the Force reacting to the growing darkness is a contradiction. You have yet to provide any canonical contradiction and I have suggested that's it's a valid, yet unconfirmed, interpretation of previous events.

Again: where, in canon, is the idea the Force reacts to the growing darkness contradicted? Because if it's just a contradiction of your personal interoperation of things, TLJ can't be criticised for that because it's not beholden to your interpretation (or any of ours). You can't complain that they are contradicting things when all they are really doing is not being consistent with head canon.

 

In the Darth Plagueis book Anakin is clearly presented as the push back from the Force in response to the accumulated dark acts of the Sith. Both Sidious and Plagueis know this. I recommend this book to people who are confused.

I think the other area of confusion regards the Force and time. People are treating time as linear and I don't think that's how it works with the Force. Imagine how "God" would see time. It's beyond comprehension but one can glimpse traces of it. Modern physics studies this also.

Cause and effect from our time-linear framework looks different when time is not linear. It appears as a paradox only because it's beyond our comprehension. But it's easy to represent such things in stories that don't have to explain everything.

 

PS also to look at time in the Force, watch the Rebels time travel episode in which the past and present and future all exist at once.

 

My point is “darkness rises, and light to meet it,” in the context of Rey-to-Kylo, is contradicted by endless lore. If you want to argue with your interpretation of my point, fine, but you’re not arguing with me. I never said “the very idea...” was contradicted. Again, that’s you strawmanning me into a conversation I don’t care to have because it’s not my point. I don’t think the force created Anakin out of a reaction to growing dark side the way that you do, but it doesn’t matter anyway because it’s unnecessary to my point. Everything about the way the force made Rey (and again “in reaction to” sounds like a choice by a conscious god which is not how I have ever seen the force) is contrary to the way the force worked with the Chosen one imo.

Again - I stated my opinion not for it to be twisted in a way to try and force me to argue against your head canon. I have no idea why you have this idea that “TLJ cannot be criticized” for anything if it’s based on an interpretation, but I am not struck with that particular malady. I am stating my opinions freely and I will continue to do so and TLJ will be just fine as a result. Rey rising to balance Kylo is nonsense contradicted by every prior SW movie and moreover, since you keep harping on this, I’ll go so far as to say it’s a betrayal of GL’s view of balance in the force.

 

@AhsokaSolo

Can you show me where it contradicts previous lore? Or are we really at a point where movies are criticised for not aligning with someone's headcanon. To me this is like if someone suggested midiclorians contradicted the OT - they don't but they might contradict how somoen previously interpreted the Force.

 

Again I don't think both functions are the exact same, but I think they are similar. The Chosen One was born when he was as a reaction to the growing power of the Sith, and this was long prophecied to happen. Rey was a result of the rising darkness and was awakened because of Luke's removal. I think the Chosen One was more significant, but the basic function of the Force reacting with 'antibodies' to a rising virus is the same.

 

I have made so many specific points that you don’t respond to. For probably the fifth time you have ignored the part of Rey balancing Kylo making zero sense in the context of every other piece of SW lore anywhere. I have explained why I feel the way I feel just fine. I’m exhausted from making points just to have you argue strawmen in return. I’m not restarting the conversation from scratch. Let’s agree to disagree. Finally.

I have never said midichlorians contradict the OT. I didn’t like them at first because I liked the force being more mystical than scientific, but honestly after adjusting to them they don’t bother me at all because they don’t contradict anything. So again, instead having a discussion on my actual views, which you wanted to challenge, I’m arguing with yet another strawman.

 

You haven't provided any evidence of it contradicting anything of previous lore. You've provided how you interpret things and said that it contradicts those interpretations. All Snoke says is that a new light will rise as the darkness rises, which, in this case, is embodied in one person - Kylo. It's still not about a singular individual having an opposite individual in the 'other side' of the Force - it's about the Force reacting to rising darkness, whether that's from one or one hundred. The darkness rises beyond it's remit and the Force gives rise to a special counter Force.

I'm not suggesting you think the midichlorians contradict the OT - it was an analogy. Previously other people have suggested the midichlorians contradict the OT, when in reality they only contract interpretations, not what is shown in the films.

 

@DarthPhilosopher - again, I’m ending it. We see it differently. I’m not explaining myself to you on this topic again any time soon, probably not until I forget that this exchange took place and then I fall down the rabbit hole again without realizing it lol.