ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

I don't think it's the same at all. Qi'ra killed her slavemaster, took the reins of Crimson Dawn, and is now meeting with one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy on her own terms, and while wielding power over a vast criminal organization. She's not motivated by "changing men," even if a part of her motivation at the end of Solo was to protect Han. But I don't see it purely as her "sacrificing herself" for Han. She's a complex person, I think, and has multiple motivations in mind. Protect Han, yes, but also find a better way of being free.

In my view, she's motivated by surviving in a rough world, and not being oppressed in that rough world. And compared to her compatriots who are probably still under the thumb of the White Worms on Corellia, she's made it very far in her life. I don't think it's fair to dismiss her agency simply because she's acting within a corrupt system. She's doing what she thinks is best for her. She may be far more cynical than Han, but that doesn't negate her agency. She's trying to be free, just like Han. She just has a different approach to getting there. Different means. Han wants to simply fly off in a ship and have adventures, while Qi'ra seems to want to climb high enough so that the big bosses can't touch her. That's a subjective interpretation, yes. But I think it's supported by what I saw on screen, no matter what Howard's actual intention was.

During the times of legal slavery, sometimes it was the only means available to a woman to escape her bonds. Temporarily enlisting the help of men. I don't think it's fair to judge women who don't live in free democracies by the standards of free democracies.

That said, clearly Qi'ra doesn't see herself as a codependent. In fact, she seems to think that Han needs her far more than she needs Han. She doesn't need him at all, actually. So she takes over Crimson Dawn, and leaves Han. In doing so, she protects Han, not the other way around, and she does so because she is smarter and more powerful than he is. And I don't believe she "sacrifices herself" in doing so. She still has a lot of cards to play, and I think the plan was to have her do so in subsequent films.

Qi'ra working for Maul is no different, in terms of agency, than a female military officer working for a more senior officer as she makes her way up a military organization. I mean, is the standard that individuals, female or male, cannot or should not serve? Or work within organizations or institutions in order to achieve either their goals, or broader ideals? If so, that's a vastly different standard than "agency." It's a radical libertarian standard which I don't believe Star Wars has ever promoted. It's an impossible standard, and as we never held, say, Luke, Leia or Han to that standard (since they served superiors like Mothma within the Rebel Alliance), why would we hold Qi'ra to that standard? Is it because it's a criminal organization? If so, I get that. But again, that's far beyond a standard for agency. That's a standard for morality.

 

Qi'ra isn't meeting with Maul on her own terms. She doesn't want to meet with Maul at all. She doesn't want to be a part of Crimson Dawn. She wants to escape, although she views that as an unattainable fantasy. She's meeting Maul to survive and to cover for Han.

But I do think if you want to interpret her as more complex, you can. The movie doesn't make anything clear where she is concerned. However, you can't point to anything to prove that Qi'ra even remotely did what she did out of ambition. You can assume that if you want because she doesn't refute it, but the character never expresses it.

I dismiss the way she was written as having no pov like her pov doesn't matter. It's exactly like Rey's in that way.

 

I don't see it that way because Solo, the movie, was about Solo. Naturally, in what is essentially a biopic, the POV focus will be with that character. The ST, on the other hand, isn't restricted in the same way. And indeed, Rey seemed to be the primary protagonist in TFA. Only to have the POV of two male characters dramatically overshadow her own in TLJ, which was off-putting and regressive to me.

 

This is why I said previously it's only worse with Rey because she's the protagonist. Either way, it's a woman deprived of a pov while she's depicted sacrificing herself for a man she has the hots for.

You previously said Qi'ra working for Maul is no different than a woman in the military, or something. It was an edit after I replied and I can't see it on this screen. No, it's not like that. Solo emphasizes over and over and over that once you're in, you can't leave unless you die. Qi'ra is shown without question to believe that. Qi'ra is Maul's slave. She isn't a soldier reporting to a commanding officer because that's her chosen career.

 

Qi'ra's relationship with Vos is not that different from the way she interacts with Lady Proxima. Proxima favors her obviously as she warns Qi'ra about defying her (she is someone with potential according to Proxima, unlike Han). Already Qi'ra I think has been maneuvering within her first organization. She references it as a source of protection because going along with Han's plan means they will have no protection. That bothers Qi'ra. Once she is recaptured, she continues trying to maneuver up would be my guess.

Qi'ra isn't supposed to be an example of how to live. She is a person trapped in criminal organizations. But men and women are trapped in these organizations. Solo shows how difficult to attain freedom is for everyone. Qi'ra is in a way a poor example because a) she doesn't believe freedom is possible (though in her defense she has had a really rough start to life and for most people it's not possible) and b) she is willing to do terrible things to survive. Qi'ra participates in evil for her own survival. She doesn't prefer killing and hurting people, but she doesn't believe she can be on the good path like Han. Like Kylo, she believes it is too late.

(just saw mod edit - can it easily be moved?)

 

How mad are you going to be if it's revealed that there was a general outline and the ST still ended up like it did?

 

I for one wouldn't be angry at all...

...I'm so apathetic when it comes to the Saga now that any "news" in hindsight that there was a plan all along simply won't register.

 

I still suspect there is/was a general outline for the major characters story arcs, including a non-rando lineage reveal for Rey, but RJ thought he could build suspense or add depth to the character by intermittently subverting that outline. We'll know more after Ep IX.

 

There isn't one though unless you count the general outline was to not have a general outline as being a general outline which is recursive nonsense.

TFA made her easy to dismiss because she's not actually interesting as a character. She is there to supplement other character's stories as her own is a vapid nothing that is easily explained away as being due to the Force. Coming out of TFA the audience wanted to know who her parents were despite the movie itself saying she'd moved past them and they weren't coming back.

Whatever term one wants to use Anakin and Luke are the central characters of their trilogies. The confusion of this trilogy have comes from assigning aspects of this to Rey while giving the actual substance to Ren. She's placed in that slot similar to Anakin and Luke except that has already all happened for Ben Solo for many years earlier.

 

The only reason IX ends up as The Force Awakens: Part 2 is because J. J. Abrams is back. That's not an outline, that's an accident because they got rid of the first director/writer of IX over claimed creative differences and brought the first writer/director back from VII.

 

I really liked her character in TFA, but in TLJ she just fell flat... I think because Disney (in the current state of things) are so scared to harm her onscreen, you are never worried about her at all...ever. I think it hurts the character that she is flat out indestructible! She literally only got a scratch in TLJ. Anakin and Luke went through hell!

 

Any opinions on why Kylo seemed to perk up at the mention of a girl etc? (I think a couple other small things implied it, like Kylo kidnapping Rey instead of BB8.)
Also things like Han and Leia's immediate shine to Rey making more sense if they were somehow connected.
My spider sense was telling me "early draft bleedover".

 

What girl?

 

Nothing but a red herring.

Not to worry, I'm sure the real explanation is that Kylo Ren is overly sensitive to anything unexpected.

 

I don't expect any explanation. Btw. was there anything obvious like this in the previous trilogies that ended up in nothing?
I cannot remember anything like this

 

It's called "JJ's Mystery Box!"

What's amazing is that Kylo knew who her parents were two days later. I guess he hired the Jim Rockford of Jakku.

 

And let's not forget that added bonus of "It IS you!" Kylo says to her in the TFA novelization during their duel...

Fuel, meet fire.

I had always thought Rey's heritage, lineage, what-have-you, was going to be super important to the Saga. I personally still do, but they went about telling it in a really strange and backward way.

 

Not quite sure what is supposed to be so odd about it.
He was informed that BB-8 escaped in a freighter, with the help of Finn and a girl. That brings up he obvious question where this girl came from, because the droid belonged to a rebel pilot who escaped with the help of a stormtrooper. No girl involved in any of that. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with him knowing her, it's all about her sudden appearance.

And why wouldn't he know about Rey's parents?
He went into her mind and saw plenty of things in there, including the island Luke ended up being on. It is quite clear that he got a lot of information out of her before she was able to shut herself down and partially turn the tables on him. It's hardly a big jump from him invading her mind to him finding our about her parents. Especially when you add the mind-link later on, which was explicitly stated to include recognizing whether the other was telling the truth.