main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

"damn fool idealistic crusade"

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Hernalt, May 30, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    To reduce friction between OT and PT, what is the most economical viewer POV regarding Obi-Wan's reference to a "damn fool idealistic crusade"?

    As of now, I suppose Obi-Wan (ultimately) made a sophisticated, sardonic, sarcastic, ironical reference to Owen Lars' (eventual) provincial, plebeian, peasant, layman opinion of the Jedi 1) seeking to prevent the separation of the Republic and/or 2) hoping in some prophecy about some "chosen one" or some "balance of the force", whatever that means to a moisture farmer.

    Fact from ANH: Not everyone knew about or believed in The Force.

    Fact from ANH: The Force was not perceived to control everyone's destiny.

    Fact from TPM: Tatooine is outside the Republic.

    Fact from ROTS: Owen knew of Anakin Skywalker's capacity, since he brought back his mother's body where 30+ Tatooine farmers could not.

    Fact from ROTS: Owen knew that Obi-Wan brought a male infant to be raised.

    Inference in ANH in light of ROTS: Owen learned, discovered, or inferred, sooner or later, that the infant "Skywalker" was none other than the son of Anakin Skywalker. (No data how common the name.)

    Inference in ANH in light of ROTS: Owen inferred, sooner or later, that Obi-Wan had a remaining/ultimate interest in the infant when he settled not far from the Lars homestead.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The reference is to when Anakin went off to fight in the Clone Wars. Following the death of his mother and the funeral, Anakin and Padme are summoned back to their ship when a message from Obi-wan has been detected. Anakin leaves shortly thereafter and three years later, the Jedi are blamed for trying to overthrow the Republic and Anakin is among the casualties in the Jedi Purge. Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have left to fight in a war that he was going to lose. This anger is directed towards Obi-wan, after bringing him Luke to raise. This is why he doesn't want Obi-wan around him and doesn't want Luke to know about his Jedi heritage. And why he doesn't want Luke to go to the academy. He's afraid that he will lose his life like Anakin did.
     
  3. Jedi Gunny

    Jedi Gunny Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 20, 2008
    Nice analysis there. I have nothing more to add. =D=
     
  4. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Salient dialogue from DVD:
    "No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter. ...
    That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals - Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved. ...
    Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did."

    Darth-sinister, if I tilt my head sideways and squint I agree that your posted POV mechanically stitches the two films in terms of what the camera blocked and what characters were present at what times.

    But now that we know what the "Clone Wars" were all about (or, in the case of re-viewing the 1977 film named simply "Star Wars", what the Clone Wars Had Been all about), what I don't get is the two references to idealism. What was idealistic about the Clone Wars? Their purpose, if one can be summed, was to preserve the democratic and representative Republic, even at the Faustian cost of building an army of conscienceless, blindly obedient fodder. The Clone troops deployed to preserve the Republic did not themselves represent or derive from the public at all, and were closer to Hessians than to a National Guard.

    Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have left to fight in a war that he was going to lose.
    I do not see where the camera in AOTC telescopes or foreshadows this. It makes sense that the name "Anakin Skywalker" might show up on a list of dead Jedi, news of which might find its way to the Outer Rim. But in the moment of Anakin's leaving Tatooine, all that Owen could have known was that the Republic, of which Tatooine was no part, was having trouble retaining all its constituency.

    In terms of the attempted Jedi coup that was promulgated by the Chancellor at the end of ROTS (3+ years after AOTC?), Owen could only at that time have gained enough data to formulate an opinion about Anakin's leaving Tatooine, 3+ years earlier, that had anything to do with the "idealism" component of his being a Jedi, whether that was idealism fighting _Alongside_ Clone troops, whose origin and mechanism contradicted their published purpose, or idealism trying to _Stop_ the Chancellor from handcrafting the Empire. (Here I assume ANH Owen is as dissatisfied with the Empire is every other non-Rebel reference to its oppressiveness, from the likes of Luke, Han, Lando, not to mention Tarkin).

    Luke's question was about the Clone Wars, not a Jedi coup/purge, and Obi Wan logically would only refer to the Clone Wars, and not a Jedi coup/purge, in his reply. Luke learns about the Jedi purge only after he learns about the 'idealistic crusade'.

    While re-watching ANH, I'm ok attributing to Owen Lars some additional underlying emotions concerning the dangers Luke might face, and your posted POV maps well for the most part to the scenes with just Owen and Beru concerning him staying on another season (deft).

    I don't think the 'idealistic crusade' aspect of the Clone Wars is spelled out yet.

    Heh. I have to mention what certainly not a single of all here has failed to hear about or personally observe, but which bears amusement, being ANH 30:07 to 30:10, where Alec Guinness's eyes go slowly down Luke's legs and linger on his feet, while saying, "Rest easy son - you've had a busy day. You're fortunate to be all in one piece!" :D Whether by accident or design, this is an example where the old wine is made better by the new.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  5. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    Am I missing something? I always assumed that Obi-Wan flat-out told Owen and Beru who Luke's parents were, although I figured that he also told them that Anakin and Padme were both dead and that's why he was bringing Luke to Owen and Beru. I didn't think Obi-Wan brought them "an infant boy" without telling them who Luke was. :confused:
     
  6. celera

    celera Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    May 13, 2002
    The Clone Wars didn't happen yet when Anakin met Owen. I think what Owen meant by "damn fool idealistic crusade" was being a Jedi in general. I can also picture him having a negative attitude towards the Naboo practice of letting kids be politicians because it's such a dangerous job.
     
  7. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Anakin became a Jedi padawan long before meeting Owen, and he was following Qui-Gon when he left Tatooine, not Obi-Wan.
     
  8. Obironsolo

    Obironsolo Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2005


    Of course he told them who Luke's parents were. What possible sense would it make to bring them an "infant baby" if it wasn't Anakin's? Luke called them aunt and uncle. This should not be debated.

    As stated above, the deception may have been to say that Anakin was dead, and to leave out the dark side part. Although we don't really know if Obi-Wan even knew Anakin was alive at that point.

    As a kid, I always assumed Owen DID know about Anakin's dark turn, which was why when Beru says Luke has too much of his father in him, Owen says that's what scares him.

    After the prequels, that became questionable.
     
  9. voodoopuuduu

    voodoopuuduu Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2004
    As of now, I suppose Obi-Wan (ultimately) made a sophisticated, sardonic, sarcastic, ironical reference to Owen Lars' (eventual) provincial, plebeian, peasant, layman opinion of the Jedi
    Ive kind of looked at that statement as Obi-Wans pragmatic assessment of himself. "Idealistic" is a term I feel Owen wouldnt have used, it doesnt seem in his character.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Owen, like most of the people in the Outer Rim worlds like Tatooine, save the Republic for what it was. An arcahic institution whose time has passed. News travels fast via the Holonet and hearing how corrupt the Republic had become and the growing Separatist movement, resulted in many people losing faith in the Republic. They ignored the Outer Rim and worlds like Tatooine, where slavery is still in effect. The Republic has never done anything of importance for them. They are very much like a third world country. When Anakin left, Owen didn't understand why. Not until he found out about Geonosis and the start of the Clone Wars as the Holonet Media called it. Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have gotten involved.

    The Jedi believed in the Republic and how it had been once upon a time. The Jedi wanted to stop the Confederacy, reunite the worlds that joined in and weed out the corruption in the Senate. That was idealistic, but it was foolish to believe that they could really do that. The Jedi were trying to stop change, something that went against their philosophy.

    That's not what happens. Luke asks about his father when they arrive at Obi-wan's hovel and Obi-wan tells him about his involvement in the Clone Wars.

    BEN: "That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

    The ideals represent the Jedi Order's, which was to help everyone selflessly. Without a thought of reward. A life in service to the Republic. Luke asks about what it is that Anakin wanted him to have that Owen didn't. The Jedi Purge had nothing to do with what Luke asks. He knows the public record about the Jedi fighting in the Clone Wars and being wiped out. He just wanted to know about his father, which Obi-wan tells him the truth about. Luke doesn't ask about the Clone Wars or the Jedi Purge.
     
  11. Duragizer

    Duragizer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Why exactly would he care what Anakin did or didn't do with his life? They didn't even know each other.
     
  12. CaptainYossarian

    CaptainYossarian Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2003
    Anakin chose a certain path in life which ended with him dying. Now his son's an orphan and Owen and Beru have to take care of him. Owen's opinion is that if Anakin had chosen a different (less risky) lifestyle then things might have been better. Other people suffered because of his decsion to 'get involved' with things that shouldn't have concerned those from Tatooine.
     
  13. Duragizer

    Duragizer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2009
    The only problem with that theory is that it was implied in ANH that Owen didn`t want Anakin to get involved with the Jedi prior to leaving Tatooine, and not years after everything went to hell.
     
  14. KennethMorgan

    KennethMorgan Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2004
    I think Owen just thought Ani should've stayed home and looked after his mom, rather than going off the save the galaxy. Owen strikes me as the sort of man who'd figure that your family comes first, which is largely the opposite of Jedi teachings. He may have even figured that being committed to the Jedi led to Ani not coming to Shmi's rescue until it was too late (which is actually sort of true).

    Basically, I believe Ben and Owen just plain didn't understand each other's position. Ben, who's been a Jedi his whole life, can't imagine putting your own family ahead of the needs of others, while Owen doesn't understand how you can turn your back on your own and fight to save people you don't even know. Fortunately, Luke is able to do both and save the day.

    As for Owen blaming Ben, who else is left to blame? All of the other Jedi are gone, so Ben represents the whole Jedi Order, which Owen blames for Ani's sad fate.
     
  15. jedibri

    jedibri Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2000
    I think most of the people on Tatooine thought "old" Ben was a radical. Owen even called him a "crazy old wizard."
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    No, but he knew enough from the five years Shmi lived with him. And the fact that Anakin failed in his endeavors, which got him killed and force Owen to take care of his kid, these are reasons why he feels this way later on. If Anakin hadn't gotten involved, he'd still be alive and taking care of his own kid. Rather than dying in a senseless and futile conflict.
     
  17. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    I agree with the rest of you. I think Owen thought there was something wrong with Anakin for leaving his mother and going off with the Jedi, especially since he left her in slavery.
     
  18. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2009
    It's the whole slavery thing. Remember, the Jedi weren't perfect. They had a problem with families. That's why Luke's Jedi > the post-Ruusan Jedi. Of course, most of the galaxy places an emphasis on family. Not "family values" as thought of on a little planet called the United States. (It used to be part of a planet called Earth, but it seceded in 2001.) But caring for your kids, respecting your parents, that sort of thing.
     
  19. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Thank you, all, for every response so far. I'm basically on board with the general direction of the POVs offered, but I still have a question or two.

    CaptainYossarian writes, Owen and Beru have to take care of him.
    Darth-Sinister writes, force Owen to take care of his kid

    I may be coldly pragmatic in this circumstance but I don't sense any overriding compulsion that Owen and Beru MUST become THE foster parents for infant Luke. Obviously Owen is related to the one husband that Shmi ever had, and Luke is Shmi's grandson. But this is a bond solely through marriage, and both parties (Cliegg and Shmi) are dead by the time Obi-Wan arrives with infant Luke. Obi-Wan could have taken Luke to any number of places in the galaxy, and could certainly have raised him himself for that matter.

    If necessary and sufficient reasons could show that Owen was under duress or compulsion to raise his non-genetic 'nephew', then the line might snick into place.
     
  20. Gary_Buchenara

    Gary_Buchenara Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2009
    The fact that the details of the story to which Obiwan refers were written retrospectively probably has something to do with it. When ANH was written, the version of the Clone Wars which Lucas had in his mind may well have been more of an idealistic crusade than what we eventually saw in the PT. It's not surprising that there are jarring aspects to it, as there are in many other areas between the two trilogies.
     
  21. black_saber

    black_saber Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2002
    Gee Why did Lucas not Explain about Uncle owens view about Anakin and the Clone Wars at the time of the Prequels let him Express it. Like I said He loves the EU more then his movies.
     
  22. CaptainYossarian

    CaptainYossarian Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2003

    It was Yoda's idea to take Luke to Tatooine, a decision based on the family relationship and the remoteness of the planet. Luke could be cared for by family (however loosely related) and could be hidden from the Empire. Obi-Wan could hide out there as well.

    Owen didn't have to take Luke in, but when the circumstance was presented he felt like he should. Anakin came to a bad end after leaving Tatooine and Owen didn't want Luke to go the same way. So when Obi-Wan asks him to take care of Luke he accepts because he can make sure the boy's brought up right and doesn't have his head filled with nonsense. And that's why he lies to Luke about his family and continually tries to keep him from leaving the farm or having any contact with Obi-Wan.



    I don't think the 'idealistic crusade' aspect of the Clone Wars is spelled out yet.

    The Clone Wars was a conflict involving the Republic vs the Separatists. Anakin became a Jedi and so fought for the Republic. Owen's opinion was that since Anakin was from Tatooine any of those things being fought for either didn't or shouldn't have concerned him.

    Owen's fears for Luke were fairly general and he may never have actually made a comment so specific as the "damned fool idealistic crusade" mentioned by Obi-Wan. That may just be Obi-Wan's interpretation of how he knew Owen felt. Owen disagreed with Anakin ever having left Tatooine and so when he died at the time of the Clone Wars (as far as Owen knew) that became the focus of his fears concerning Luke. Owen didn't want Luke to leave Tatooine and die fighting for someone else's ideals in someone else's war. It was Anakin's whole life as a Jedi that Owen had disagreed with, something that was encapsulated by the Clone Wars and the Jedi 'crusade' to protect the Republic.

    So it's not really necessary for the Clone Wars to be somehow specifically shown to be an 'idealistic crusade' because that's inherent in the very concept and how someone like Owen Lars would have viewed Anakin's involvement in it. You don't even need any of the PT or more recent EU info about the Clone Wars to know that since it's always been pretty obvious since ANH was first released and before anyone knew anything about the Clone Wars.
     
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    You don't need the eu to explain Owen's feelings, because it has not been brought up there. Owen's feelings are made clear in ANH. There's no need for him to say that he shouldn't get involved. AOTC establishes that he knows Anakin and that he knows that Anakin leaves to go fight in the Clone Wars. ANH shows us that he doesn't want Luke to leave and it is Obi-wan who explains it to us, when he explains it to Luke. He'd only express it to Obi-wan and after the fact.

    As to Anakin leaving to become a Jedi, that's not it. Shmi explained that Qui-gon couldn't free her and that she wanted a better life for Anakin, which is why he was allowed to leave. So Owen's issues do not center around that. It is the Clone Wars. The crusade is to save the Republic, which was corrupt and falling apart. It was idealistic to believe that it could be, much less should be saved.
     
  24. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Thank you all for the earnest and intelligent responses. Thank you, CaptainYossarian, for supplying the reference to ROTS Yoda, which helps me wash my hands of this issue and bill its questionable realism to Lucas' account.

    ROTS 02:09:25 "And what of the boy? ... To Tatooine, to his family send him. ... I will take the child and watch over him." (And more importantly, who is turning Yoda's chair as he speaks alternately to Bail and then Obi-Wan?) Through Yoda's words, Lucas' in-universe assertion is that a marriage bond that existed between relatives that are now both dead by some years (3?) still dictates a familial attachment that is tantamount to the quality or quantity of genetic representation that in evolutionary terms, and in terms of Hamilton's Rule, generally equates to the highest parental investment. Owen Lars shares zero documented genetic heritage with the Skywalkers, had known Shmi for five years 3-ish years ago, whose only link to Shmi is now dead, had been in Anakin's presence for only 48 hours 3-ish years ago, and is now expected, per Lucas' assertion channeled through Yoda's valedictory omniscience, to somehow respond to the prospect of raising Anakin's infant son with some simulacrum of a fatherly or at least uncle-esque devotion. Whether this is explicitly born out in ANH is now besides the point, because Lucas cut to commercial and called them all "family", which is a more mythically resonant term than "step-family".

    Lucas already cut to commercial, so I'll log my observation without arguing in its favor. The line "damned-fool idealistic crusade" carries more emotional energy than the line "idealistic crusade". In Freudian terms it carries more cathexis or emotional attachment. The thread's general consensus of exegesis of "damned-fool idealistic crusade" only makes hermetically-sealed sense to me if 1) Owen himself felt a devotion to Luke tantamount to the genetic representation an uncle or father might have in a child, or 2) Owen was forced by some legalese next-of-adoptive-kin logic to raise the grandchild of his father's once-wife, so that the emotional anger at his own obligation to do something evolutionarily altruistic, or idealistic, would find its way into the phrase as an unseen result of Freudian projection. Whether or not the specific words Obi-Wan used were Owen's, what matters is that we trust that Obi-Wan accurately represented Owen's emotional or attitudinal state.

    If it could be documented that 3) Owen did _Not_ have a simulacrum of fatherly or uncle-esque devotion tantamount to fatherly or uncle-esque genetic representation, and was rather the recipient of some unforeseen stork-fodder upon a random twin sun summer's eve that happened to be the accidental grandchild of his dead father's dead wife from five years back, and Owen had raised him not for virtue of genetic representation but by the cold equations of fiscal interest as persistent farm capital and not seasonal human resource, and was averse to letting his persistent farm capital cheat out on him before he had got his goddamned 20 years of labor out of him - then I would be utterly on board with this thread's general consensus of exegesis. This could be more probable if it had turned out that Owen and Beru themselves could not produce children (citing reproductive trends of agricultural populations). There is nothing in the original 1977 "Star Wars" that leads me to believe that Owen, the grown man, gave a personally autographed limited edition rat's ass about his nephew, other than what thoroughly cleaned droids with nary a power converter, what obediently shut mouth about his father, what agreeable oblivion from that crazy old wizard, what thoroughly wiped R2 units because they belong to "us", what cooperation in shutting down power, what repaired units in the south range before there's hell to pay...might by themselves garner. Using another angle on the same "belongs to us" line, compare Owen's body language in ROTS upon receiving the infant with his order, "...have its memory erased. That'll be the end of it. It belong
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    According to the ROTS commentary it's Yoda using the Force.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.