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Comics Dark Empire Trilogy

Discussion in 'Literature' started by DarthDeviousTX, Jun 3, 2011.

  1. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Lucas did suggest having Palpatine be the villain. I have no idea if he had further input beyond that, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did-he certainly wasn't afraid of nixing ideas for both TTT and DE.
     
  2. DarthDeviousTX

    DarthDeviousTX Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2011
    I have never recieved so much good info all at once like this before. I am really going to be at home here.
    Now if I can find the books somewhere locally in Houston it would be awesome. No such luck yet probably going to have to order from Amazon or something.
    I am glad that you guys explained that it only sort of falls into the story and can get kind of random in places otherwise I probably would have been madder then hell.

     
  3. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    yeah, it's like the OT (and the films in general) that it starts after key events (Imperial invasion of Coruscant, to name one) have already occured.
     
  4. DarthDeviousTX

    DarthDeviousTX Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2011

    Thanks
    Yeah I love anything Thrawn related. I will pretty much stop reading whatever I am reading to read Timothy Zahn.
     
  5. FireJade

    FireJade Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 11, 2005
    The comics are classic, but I'd also recommend having a listen to the audiobook versions, certainly for DE and maybe the beginning of DE II. They contain interesting scenes the comics do not, and offer a different vibe/perspective that I rather liked.
     
  6. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2009
    Wait, what? So Lucas was already getting the madness even then?

    Okay, superweapons, nice. I always hated the No Plans No Prototype No Backup model of the Death Star. I don't want them in every story, but if we assume KJA's books don't exist, this isn't so bad. However, they lose their dramatic impact when you get World Devastators, Eclipse, Sovereign, [link=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuckyMcFailName]Galaxy Gun[/link]...

    Now, cloning Palpatine. Really? Since Palpatine is Space Hitler, I must ask, are we in the Silver Age?

    Hmm...Luke falls to the dark side. I can think of ways to make Luke fall. Mostly they involve Luke trying to create a utopia, like his father. They don't involve depression. Is depression even part of the dark side? Because Yoda described it as a type of mania.

    By the way, here's a spoiler and a pun: [hl=black]Palpatine tries to grab Anakin, but Han shot first.[/hl]
     
  7. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    Palpatine being the villain is a much better idea than some asshat wearing Vader's (burned to a crisp in ROTJ, btw) armor.
     
  8. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Yeah, DE was originally going to have an imposter wearing Vader's armor (presumably a replica :p) to rally the Empire around.

    Lucas nixed that idea and suggested they bring back Palpatine.
     
  9. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Funny enough, the idea of someone impersonating Vader sounds more plausible than Palpatine coming back to life, but its hard to argue with the end result when it makes Palpatine look so much more powerful. Not to mention that these days a scheme like that isn't that farfetched in other eras (not with Sith spirits and all, although Palpatine was one of the most successful).

    Hm, that sounds like one of the times I'm glad Lucas suggested something. Sorry, just that with all the recent retcons, I've forgotten that I'm mostly glad that DE was changed from just a Vader imposter to Palpatine back from the grave. This was before the prequels too, I think?

    There was a sourcebook for Dark Empire too, right? Or were there just the notes in the first edition? Just curious as I'm still sad I missed out on all those old good sourcebooks.
     
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  10. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Ah, but the original idea lived on...

    In Vader's glove.

    :p
     
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  11. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Both.
     
  12. TheNewEmpire

    TheNewEmpire Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2007
    I can't even get through the first book. The dialogue and artwork is so poor i can't stick reading. I honestly don't know why people like this book so much. It has a really interesting concept that would work better as a novel it think...
     
  13. DarthIktomi

    DarthIktomi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2009
    It's more that They Wasted A Perfectly Good Plot. The idea of a fallen Luke is what we've been waiting for since, well, since Yoda said "There is another."

    Dark Empire II and Empire's End are far worse.
     
  14. Blur

    Blur Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 1999
    I really enjoyed Dark Empire I. I remember getting the first issue in very early '92 and being floored by the art, story, etc. I thought the return of Palpatine was very well thought-out, and I also enjoyed the return of Boba Fett, the "turning" of Luke, etc. At the time, I remember it was very tough to wait between issues, since the series was bi-monthly.

    For me, one of the most interesting aspects to the series was that some of Palpatine's bodyguards (the large, red armored guards) were almost identical in appearance to some of the Emperor's Royal Guard sketches/concept art in the "Art of Return of the Jedi" book (1983). This just showed that the creators of DE really did their homework. For what it's worth, a POTF2 figure was made of these guards ("Imperial Sentinel") way back in '98, as one of Hasbro's first EU wave of figures.

    In any case, when thinking of the DE series you have to remember it in context; at the time this originally came out the SW Comics (and the SW EU in general, for that matter) had been in limbo for about 6 years (since the Marvel series ended in '86), so DE I was like a breath of fresh air to a hardcore SW fan like me.

    I wasn't as impressed by DE II, but that makes sense since there was no real way they could re-capture the excellence of the first series.

    I bought "Empire's End", but the art (at least compared to art in the first two series by Cam Kennedy) was very dissapointing, and IMHO the story fell flat as as result. Plus, at that point I was kind of tired of seeing the Emperor's "resurrection"...

    In closing, DE I was definitely instrumental in kick-starting the SW EU in the early '90's (along with HTTE by T. Zahn, of course).
     
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  15. IG_2000

    IG_2000 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Its just representative of that era in the early 90's with the Star Wars revival... yes, the dialogue is pretty atrocious, but I enjoy the overall storyline, the artwork, and the new ships they introduced like the V-wings and TIE droids.

     
  16. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Dialogue in most comics at the time wasn't that great. Not just Star Wars comics.
     
  17. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Of all the EU this series epitomizes the primary flaws of the Expanded Universe for me. In my opinion it undermines the core purpose of ROTJ (destruction of the Emperor, sacrifice of Anakin, etc) and implements almost comical repetitive concepts of superweapons (i.e. even more 'Death Stars'). The basic concept of the Emperor being reborn to an extent is sound, and I appreciate its relevance for the era (without the PT, etc) however I still think the overall series is among the worst of the EU - mind you I have never read the series, but rather from what I have heard (although DEI could work well as a self-contained story).
     
  18. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    It's funny because Zahn was specifically told "don't use characters that were killed off in the films", but for this series it was like, "Boba Fett and the Emperor come back? Sure, why not?"
     
  19. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    Yeah, don't give opinions on literature you haven't read.

    And yeah, DE is an awesome comic. Not so sure about DE II and EE, but they have their moments.
     
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  20. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I know the plot elements and the undermining of ROTJ well enough to still offer my opinion. By reading it I would only be gaining a better understanding of the writing quality - something I am not critiquing. I don't need to have read the novel or the comic to understand that I do not like this trilogy of novels (although I noted DEI has potential) - the basic plot elements are poor enough in my opinion.
     
  21. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    I assume you've stayed away from Legacy and FotJ then.
     
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  22. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Fate of the Jedi, yes. Legacy of the Force, yes.

    Legacy the comic series however is exceptional in my opinion, even if it doesn't align completely with my own idea of continuity. It is also a very different concept from Dark Empire - the Sith have returned relatively far in the future and they are, even then, not really Sith. Furthermore the destruction of Palpatine is not necessarily undermined.
     
  23. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    Yeah, assuming I grant legitimacy to the claim that there's only one "real" line of Sith(Bane is not a continuance of Kun's line or the Sith Empire after all), they wiped out the Jedi about as well as the Empire did and spread darness throughout the galaxy, and as a plus they're now in hiding manipulating things behind the scenes ala Bane.

    I see that as more opposing to Lucas' vision than Dark Empire. Vader killed Palpatine at a shatterpoint moment in the galaxy. He brought balance back to the Force, sealed the fate of the Sith. Palpatine came back and was killed within a year. I can live with that.

    Then Jacen becomes Dark Lord. Wait, we're recruiting new Sith? Then the Lost Tribe. Then , the worst offenders, the One Sith. The Jedi will never root out all those infiltrators. If there is something that says that Vader brought balance to the Force by killing Palpatine, he means Palpatine as a representative of the Sith,because he also has said Vader brought balance by destroying the Sith.

    The idea that the One Sith somehow don't undermine Vader's sacrifice is silly. From a fairy tale pov anyway. The fairy tale aspect of SW disappeared a long time ago.

    And in reality, no sacrifice in service to good is wasted. But definitely, Lucas' original intent is contradiced upside down by recent stories.
     
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  24. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Ultimately it is a subjective interpretation.

    I think this is ultimately a generational thing. Having the Sith return 100-odd years after the fact, in my opinion, undermines less of Anakin's sacrifice than the Sith returning continuously (the Emperor the paramount of these) over the course of the next 100 years. In my opinion Anakin and Luke restoring relative peace for a couple of generations more than makes their sacrifice worthy - after all that is billions and billions of people who can live in peace for 100 or so years. Having the Sith return 100 years after the fact is merely the natural progression and it is now up to the next generation (Cade Skywalker, etc) to defeat the new enemy - in other words all that you can ask for is to restore peace in your time and others will walk the same path (heroes journey) when evil rises again. By having evil rise a couple of years later is more undermining in my opinion. It's like the sacrifice of the soldiers of World War II being more undermined if another European War occurred 1960 - less so if another occurred in 2050. Why? Because their sacrifice has allowed billions to live in relative peace for at the very least a few generations.

    My opinion of this, of course, is because of my individual continuity. In my opinion a second 'Pax Republica' began following ROTJ with wars only centered around non-Sith campaigns (perhaps the Hutt's and the Chiss). The One Sith, as such are merely a rejuvenated
    'Sith' - and, in my opinion (which is suggested by Legacy), they are not even real Sith. Rather they are the last gasp of the failed Sith Order and choose to be considered Sith rather than actually being Sith. Because it is set 100-odd years after the Saga - and because I don't consider them actually causing imbalance like the Banite Sith did - I enjoy the series more than Dark Empire. Then again it isn't really part of what I consider continuity either - I merely enjoy it more than Dark Empire for the stated reasons.
     
  25. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    DarthPhilosopher, you can't really evaluate how you enjoy Dark Empire if you have never read Dark Empire. I get it, you are put off by the concept, but you've never actually read the material or felt the ambiance of it to evaluate it at all. That's like saying "I don't like Return of the Jedi because I read the plot synopsis on Wikipedia." It doesn't wash. GL, at least, enjoyed it at the time. He may not be into it now but he apparently was really into it in the early 90s. And it, along with TTT, rejuvenated the Star Wars brand.

    So give it a read. Some stories have a ridiculous premise but are actually quite good. This is, IMO, one of them. "Undermining the Chosen One" crap aside. And even that is, IMO, easily worked around. Biggest most bad ass Sith in history returns from the dead and he's taken down by a handful of Jedi in relatively short order versus his first incarnation building up his power for a couple decades and enslaving a Jedi Order of thousands to his command and then summarily wiping them out without much trouble seems to me it actually reinforces Anakin's destiny and sacrifice. This Sauron level evil pops up again and he's severely weakened and what few Jedi there are take him down with the help of a smuggler in the end. It kind of shows how the mighty had fallen doesn't it? That Darth Sidious could be shot by Han Solo and his dark soul(which had only recently brought itself back to the land of the living by inhabiting a clone of its own body) is trapped by the will of a Jedi Knight who is far more machine than even Vader was.
     
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