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"Dark Lord" by Luceno (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Feb 7, 2005.

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  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    No, I meant Prowse. He was, for lack of a better word, a stuntman. Lucas never wanted Prowse for his acting abilities. He wanted him because of his side and strength. Prowse also assumed that he could do the sword fights, but watch "The Birth Of The Lightsaber" and compare him to Anderson. Prowse had trouble standing when it came to doing the harder parts of the fight. Or if he could stand, he could barely get the helmet to stay on.


    Obviously you've never seen "The Untouchables" or "Buffy The Vampire Slayer". Lesson the first is fitting, as it's based off those concepts. Do not presume to think that I'm trashing grammer. Ask before you assume that I'm trashing anything. If you've been following the boards long enough, then you'd know that I've used "Lesson the first" before. Never assume because...well, you know the rest.

     
  2. farrellg

    farrellg Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 17, 2005
    The fact that Vader has to correct someone about his power, is a sad testament to the fact that he is seen as inferior. No one mocks Emperor Palpatine. But Motti mocks Vader and Vader has to teach him a lesson. Sidious and Maul inspired fear without making a demonstration out of anyone. Vader has to make an example out of Motti and Ozzel.

    Do the Imperial Officers even know the Emperor is a force user? I think they would be less likely to insult Vader if they knew the Emperor himself uses the Force.
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Maybe, maybe not. It's never been proven in canon. In the eu, a few knew of Palpatine's powers. Mara Jade, Grand Admiral Thrawn, etc. However, when Vader tells Jerjerrod that Palpatine's on his way there, the look on the Moff's face was one who just soiled himself. He's scared of Palpatine. Look at Nute when he talks to Sidious. Fear born of intimidation without demonstration.
     
  4. LaanKro

    LaanKro Jedi Youngling

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    May 19, 2004
    Pig wrestling--one side likes it and the other side shouldn't.
     
  5. Elle-Wan

    Elle-Wan Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Jul 11, 2004
    I read that little excerpt from Dark Lord on the starwars site and I hated it. I got the sense that some random character was acting all smart-alec and sassy to the newly minted Darth Vader. ...this of course was something I found to be rather distasteful (Vader probably would have killed him instantly.) It was as if we were supposed to think this guy was cool for being catty with Vader. For anyone who's read that excerpt, can you tell me that the novel does not continue on this path?
     
  6. alansmithee85

    alansmithee85 Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 30, 2005
    Forgive me, but I only recall ?Here endeth the lesson,? from The Untouchables. Not all this bad grammar business with lesson the blank. And yes I will proudly say I?ve never seen a single full episode of Buffy. By the way, bad grammar aside, here endeth the lesson is part of the service for the Church of England; by saying it you are implying that the ?wisdom? you are imparting to the other person is comparable to the word of God. A word of advice, it makes you come off as a huge pretentious boor. Had you refrained from such a condescending tone I might have not had to break out the smart-assery.

    He has what he wants out of Palpatine. He is done with him, which is why he wants to kill him with Luke. He prevents Luke from killing him, because he is caught between his Master and his son. He cannot turn on his Master as he originally wanted to. And so he must fight his son to turn him, but also prevent Palpatine from being killed. It's easier to brag when away from Sidious, than to carry it out when around him.

    I don?t assume that he has what he wants out of Palpatine, as I doubt Palpatine has taught him everything he knows. Regardless, with Luke as the catalyst for an untenable chemistry, he is done with him. Protecting Palpatine out of love is not shown in the movies. Fear of his master is, wanting to turn Luke is, but not love of Palpatine?such emotions are foreign to Vader, and I highly doubt he ever forgets about the betrayal Palpatine engineered. The movies give evidence for Anakin Skywalker being awakened by Luke only; before that Vader was as cold as his bionic components. A previous poster hit it on the head; neither is Luke fully turned to the dark side (the plot involving the three for ESB and ROTJ) nor is his training complete enough to be allowed to take on Sidious (the lightning caught him with his pants down). It is a matter of pragmatism and timing with Vader?s defense, not a love of his corruptor. The scenes between the two of them from the birth to death of suited Vader do not display this supposed love?rather they evince mistrust, subtle passive aggressive goading, and machinations against one another.

    The fact that Vader has to correct someone about his power, is a sad testament to the fact that he is seen as inferior. No one mocks Emperor Palpatine. But Motti mocks Vader and Vader has to teach him a lesson. Sidious and Maul inspired fear without making a demonstration out of anyone. Vader has to make an example out of Motti and Ozzel.

    Sidious and Maul were known to their collaborators as Sith?and the fearsome reputation of Jedi/Sith to the common alien allowed for that fear from cowards such as the TF. If Maul was sent to the Death Star to keep watch on Tarkin as Vader was, in the OT climate of derision against the ?anachronisms? that are Force-users, I think he would meet similar insolence from officers and have to make examples.

    And given what we know of Vader, he shouldn't be bowing down to Tarkin. Especially given how he gives out orders in TESB and ROTJ. But we know that Vader has to take it from Tarkin, who is also favored by Palpatine. And Tarkin doesn't quite trust Vader's instincts or his connection to the Force.

    This is really grasping at straws Sinister; how does the reps with underlings have any bearing on the true power relationship between the Emperor and his apprentice? Or why does Tarkin?s attitude to the Force matter? Still though, I?ll address it. He is with Tarkin because the Emperor wishes him to monitor the situation?giving the power to destroy a planet, the power of an entire starfleet as Han says, to an ambitious man like him without any kind of check on his power is rather un-Palpatine. Vader is there as the right hand of the Emperor to make sure the DS doesn?t show up around, say Coruscant, with demands. When seen in that context, it fits perfectly with killing the Separatist Council, with overseeing the final construction of the Death Star (and perhaps testament to their deteriorating trust, Sidious then goes there hi
     
  7. alansmithee85

    alansmithee85 Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 30, 2005
    Just to keep in mind, I?m not parading Vader as the greatest character ever so he gets to beat everyone else up. I recognize that in many of the rough drafts of ROTJ, Palpatine was always meant to be far stronger than Vader (including Force choking him like Wayne Brady), disappointed in him, and seeking Luke as a new apprentice. However, also in the old drafts Vader was only a very talented former Jedi and not potential demigod. Then with the prequels we get a virgin birth and the greatest Force potential ever. So Lucas reconciles the plot by saying Vader was lessened by Mustafar. However as I?ve argued, the rationale/ logic behind it doesn?t make sense. I hold that it is much more reasonable to simply figure that Sidious denied Vader all the best secrets of the Sith to keep him subservient and fearful?he is the inferior because he is kept ignorant of the true mysteries of the dark side. Not only does this tie into the relationship between the two established in ROTS (Sidious buys Vader?s loyalty with the carrot of power, and Vader is itching to off him the second he gets it?and Palps knows this because he did the same thing to Plagueis, so he?ll be careful with the teaching), but remember, potential that is not cultivated is useless and wasted. Without training in the Jedi Arts the Chosen One would have been just a good swoop racer (and Luke the great prize never mentioned being exceptional); perhaps without Palpatine?s higher training in the Sith Arts, the Chosen One is relegated to always being the Dark Lord?s inferior. All the potential in the world, even for demigod status, if not shaped and tested means tangibly nothing. Palpatine can still be disappointed in Vader, as the script for ROTJ shows that the Emperor is none too happy about the conflict he feels in Vader since meeting Luke on Bespin?attachment is weakness in his book, and glimmers of Anakin the Jedi resurfacing even worse. As for replacing Vader with Luke, he knows Vader is attempting to gain Luke as an apprentice, and that is a direct threat to him (irregardless of whether one Force potential is greater than the other). By having one kill the other, preferably novice Luke killing scheming Vader, he has neutralized the threat and bought time before he is challenged again. As far as Luke winning over Vader as testament to his lessened potential: like I said his psychological state, his waning killer instinct, is just as causal as Luke?s abilities are in him being bested. And fights are fickle things; an opponent with the greater skill and strength could still fall to a novice in an unexpected turn of events.

    Is Vader ?weaker? than Palpatine? Yes. Is that because of innate nature or circumstance? Circumstance, his potential is unchanged?Sidious keeps him down and has mastered the dark side far beyond his own skills (mastery or command of the Force is indicative of applied technique, discipline, and knowledge; it does not mean potential power?the best word for that is affinity to the Force). So would he win in a fight? Sidious wins hands down in almost all scenarios except perhaps when lucky chance/the Force was with Vader (duels are fickle and all?). Why does he not challenge the Emperor for more than 20 years? He?s scared of Sidious and what he can do that he (Vader) can?t; he knows challenging him would be too risky?he?s biding his time until a suitable apprentice can be found and tip the odds in his favor; he probably lusts after every scrap of knowledge that Sidious might be willing to give before deciding it?s time to move on; he might have a slight psychological dependency on Sidious for being all that he has had for two decades of his new ?life.? Something akin to Stockholm Syndrome. See, all works just fine without the illogical limbs = Force loss.
     
  8. LaanKro

    LaanKro Jedi Youngling

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    May 19, 2004
    I never, ever thought I'd say it, but...
    I'm afraid it's just a movie.
     
  9. Evil-Anakin

    Evil-Anakin Jedi Youngling

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    Oct 23, 2005
    "Labyrinth Of Evil" is an amazing book , I'm sure "Dark Lord" will be as well.
     
  10. Outer_Rim_Girl

    Outer_Rim_Girl Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 3, 2005
    Well, I just started reading this book and I took a poster's advice and actually 'skipped' the first 47 pages, which was Vader-less.

    I guess Luceno has such carte blance with his publisher/agent that he can pretty much do what he wants. The book is called Dark Lord - The Rise of Darth Vader, yet you don't get to the subject of the book until page 50 or so.

    I would've rather seen it open with some Vader or seriously condense the first 47 pages and make it a prologue, then start chapter 1 with Vader scenes.

    Looking forward to finishing it, though.
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Well, those first 47 pages gives us the point of view on how some Jedi could survive Order 66. And if you remember in TESB, we didn't see Vader or the Empire for about fifteen minutes or so. Save for one Star Destroyer and that was about thirty seconds or so, but that film was called "The Empire Strikes Back."
     
  12. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 7, 2002
    It was frustrating not getting to Vader until later, but I think the rest of the book makes up for it.
     
  13. Jedi_Momma

    Jedi_Momma Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 1, 2005
    Bariss - I couldn't agree more! Obi-wan, as portrayed in the movies, would never, never be the pathethic wreck as portrayed by Watson. Yes, grief affects people but it doesn't profoundly alter their character! That woman couldn't write Obi-wan as true to character if her life depended on it. My older son had a few of the JA books when he was in grade school and after reading them, I was appalled. My reaction was: "Who is this sniveling, self-doubting ninny and what did he do w/ Obi-wan? They should look in the Temple basement for the pod."

    I haven't yet read Dark Lord but I'm sure my son will be getting it for Christmas :D and I hope it serves both Vader and Obi-wan well.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Patience is a virtue.
     
  15. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    i just didnt like how order 66 was ruined and how the clones could defy it. to me the clones were programmed to not have any free will. not matter how good of friends they were with jedi, when order 66 came down they immediatly understood what it meant and the jedi were now there sworn enemies.
     
  16. yaddidameen

    yaddidameen Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 13, 2005
    kind of close minded wouldn't you say? programmed or not, they are still living breathing beings, and i don't know about you but any living being that sees what the jedi were fighting for and were in the same position as those troops would have done the same thing.

    dark lord was a good book, not great but good. i like stover better, but luceno had some great moments in this book. vader vs ROAN was good, and i absolutely loved sidious' interaction.
     
  17. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    i think it was a good book as well. however, the title was misleading and focused way to much on the jedi. the clones are less than humans you need to understand. they dont become attachment to the jedi, they are soldiers, period. i liked the jedi characters except starstone she really didnt do it for me. i absolutely loved the interaction between sidious and anakin and well as tarkin. at first i didnt like that they had vader being depressed and down and out but i realized that really how he should have been acting. it just wouldnt have been believe if vader still act like he did pre-suit, so like i said a good book.
     
  18. yaddidameen

    yaddidameen Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 13, 2005
    i never said they were humans, read my whole post. they may not be human but they are still living, breathing, thinking beings, that still have common sense, if someone gives their life to save you or risks it for that matter, programmed or not you aren't just going to turn your back on someone who has done somehting like that for you. i don't think a clone disobeying this order is unrealistic at all (if such a word could be used in the star wars mythos) take the matrix for example. the sentinels were programmed to destroy the humans. hunt and destroy simple as that, yet when neo gave his life for both the numans and the machines, the machines understood his sacrifice and ceased their attack. same type of thing, i hope you understand where i'm coming from.
     
  19. LordVader66

    LordVader66 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 30, 2005
    in rots, you see order 66 executed perfectly. just 3 seconds before palps contacts commander cody on order 66, cody gives kenobi his lightsaber and they act real buddy buddy with each other. but once cody gets his new orders, he simply executes them like he should, it didnt matter that he was close to kenobi, he had orders to kill him and since hes a clone he will execute those orders without hesisation. to me when cody hands kenobi his lightsaber, gets order 66 from palps and then simply turns around and says "blast him" to me thats what order 66 is about.
     
  20. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    the clones were made to obey without question,if they breath or eat thats irrelevant,they are just a flesh and bones version of a droid.
     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Throughout the books, it was shown that the Clonetroopers were slowly evolving away from their programming. Not just the ARC Troopers, but others too. Despite the great work of the Kaminoans, we see that some of them were flawed. Prior to the end of the Clone Wars, a new batch of Clonetroopers were launched to aid the dimishing forces of the Republic. These are the ones we see in ROTS and the tie-in features. So we see a small number compared to the thousands that were still obeying orders.
     
  22. SWJaggy

    SWJaggy Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 9, 2003
    I so badly want to read this book. Hopefully I'll get it for Christmas. Is it any good?
     
  23. darth_ral

    darth_ral Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 9, 2004
    definitely worth the read
     
  24. Jedi_pain11

    Jedi_pain11 Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Mar 26, 2004
    Just finnished reading Dark Lord. Excellent read so much to the point that I read the final 232 pages in one sitting. I could not put this book down. If you are a Vader fan this is a must read.
     
  25. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    really ?? :eek: get it as soon as possible i will :)
     
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