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Lit Darth Caedus & Kylo Ren - A thematic comparison

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Personally I want to see some differences between Kylo Ren and Snoke's ideals and those of the Sith. A good idea would be that Ren and Snoke ACTUALLY strive for Order first and foremost, and see the Sith and their code as chaotic beings that should be tossed to the side, would make a nice parallel of how the FO is apparently 'true believers' in the New Order ideology. Would be interesting to see a FO conquest of say, Korriban (oh im sorry moraband how silly of me), as Kylo Ren refuses to make terms with a bunch of anarchists and mainly wants to gain their power.
     
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  2. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Caedus had more reasons to do most of what he did. I mean the execution was deeply flawed, but the foundations were much better set up at least.
     
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  3. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    The more I think about it, the more unlikely I find it that half a dozen genuine students spontaneously decided to become the Knights of Ren on the night of Kylo's massacre. Is it possible that they were never genuine students? Maybe they were plants sent to infiltrate the Academy by Snoke, with the goal of corrupting Kylo? Basically students were Vergere to Snoke's Lumiya, posing as good Jedi but influencing Ben into dark side ways.
     
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  4. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 11, 2014
    Which would make Luke the most incompetent Jedi Master ever.
     
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  5. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    He would be even if the defectors were genuine. A handful went bad? (Seems like at least 3 in addition to Kylo). And murderously bad, not skipping rock lifting class bad either...

    Even in KJA's Jedi Academy trilogy from Legends, only Kyp out of 12 went bad. This would be like if Kyp wiped out the Academy in the Trilogy with a handful of students siding with him and Exar. I can't believe Anderson's writing, which I have issues with although I know he's a very nice guy from interviews, feels better to me right now than Episode 8.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  6. Voltron64

    Voltron64 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2009
    True, but here's a pre-TLJ fanfic I found I feel gives off a lot of insight as well.

     
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think it was more likely that Kylo Ren, their friend and classmate was being attacked and in a battle for their life so they sided with him. Then again, I see Kylo Ren as a charismatic figure and the Anakin Solo of his generation....not the Memetic Loser which so many fans try to make him.
     
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  8. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    That doesn't justify killing the other classmates, who had nothing to do with the Luke/Ben confrontation though....
     
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  9. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 19, 2015
    We don't know for sure that the Jedi students who left the temple with Ben became the Knights of Ren. It's not an unreasonable theory, but the door is still open for them to be the Acolytes of the Beyond, or some other pre-existing group that Kylo joined and later became the master of.

    I have a suspicion that Kylo wasn't necessarily the only one being seduced by Snoke, which is why he actually he had as many students as he did join him. He's simply the one who rose to the top.
     
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  10. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Do you think Luke's students would stand by and let Kylo kill him?

    Or vice versa?
     
  11. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    Jedi Academy Lesson 3: How to non-lethally disarm an opponent. (This would have been Rey's third lesson)

    Luke: When we say disarm, I mean literally disarm. Chop off their arm! This is a time-tested maneuver that goes all the way back to the Great Sith War when Cay Qel-Droma lost his arm. Count Dooku was defeated by being disarmed. Mace Windu. My father. And I myself...

    (holds up right hand, now with synthetic flesh removed for dramatic effect).

    I myself would do this, say if the Emperor ever came back in a clone body for instance. I'd chop off his arm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  12. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Kyp went bad, killed billions, and was redeemed.

    Gantoris went bad and died for it.

    Brakiss was an Imperial mole.

    Mara, Corran and Kyle all joined and then quit.

    It was hardly a stellar opening twelve.

    And also, yes, Luke had Ben and a dozen students to start. We don’t know how many students he had when Ben and the handful/six massacred the lot of them.


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  13. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    He already is, isn't he? I mean Coleman Trebor was probably the only Master more inept than him, but he's got his own category of incompetence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  14. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I don't know who I prefer.

    If I start from just legacy of the force, then Jacen is better, as in this case we ignore his previous character (much like the writers). His fall was written out and it made (a kind) of sense.

    Kylo's really doesn't. Why does he kill or turn Lukes other students? Why does he then go on to commit war crimes?

    It would have worked better in Kylo was someone who got in over his head and tried to moderate the FO
     
  15. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    The EU had the explanation that Jacen was mentally messed up by Vergere, his torture in the Embrace of Pain, and the Vong war. Kylo... if they were going to port over Jacen's character into canon, they should have brought in some of this background too I think (some war messed up Kylo severely, Snoke could have been the "Vergere" here).
     
  16. Dawud786

    Dawud786 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2006
    I think the gist of Ben/Kylo is that he was always a bit of a problem child that grew to be kind of an a-hole. He went to train with Luke not just to train, but to be a better person and not use his abilities for sociopathic ends. Snoke has been egging on his worst tendencies for however long. And Ben was tight with whatever number of students went with him well before, propagating Snoke's influence and being a generally pissy jerk.

    He didnt see Luke's moment of absolute failure and just flip a switch. He was already deep in it.

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  17. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2016
    Well, they wanted to have 30 years of peace between the films, so Kylo couldn’t have been corrupted by anything “objectively” bad like a war.


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  18. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The main problem with Jacen is that authors continually shifted what his motivations were and they were often never consistent and fans were left trying to piece something together out of the whole mess.

    Suffice to say Jacen's fall is a tragedy that a young man who made peace with a species who didn't have a word for peace in their language and who shone like ten thousand suns as an avatar of the light side ended up a Sith Lord.
     
  19. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    That would make Luke an even more incompetent Jedi Master than he appears. He couldn't sense when a Dark-Sider was tempting half of his students?
     
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  20. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 19, 2015
    I don't follow how you concluded that Luke was an "incompetent" Jedi Master in the first place.
     
  21. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    As an idea, I think Caedus is better. In practice, Kylo is vastly more interesting.
     
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  22. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Kylo Ren is as boring as he is unimpressive as a villain, in my humble opinion. But that's just me.
     
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  23. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    From what I remember Luke's students often even in the EU went bad like Desann, Dolph and Brakiss ect.
     
  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Thing is, good students = no story.

    So, all we hear about is the bad, despite the fact that in Legends, by the time of the Corellia trilogy, Luke's academy has its third class of Jedi, with the first having taken on some teaching duties.
     
  25. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    There’s a mis-assumption that Luke had twelve students at the time Ben turned. He started with twelve. It doesn’t mean he had twelve at the time of the destruction of the Temple.


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