Saga Darth Plagueis importance in Canon, how important is he really ?

Okay i just wanted to start this thread her, i'm sorry if this is the wrong place to create this thread. But here it goes. Darth Plagueis has been an somewhat important character ever since the Opera scene form revenge of the sith, But why is that. Is it because of him saving people from and creating life, from all we know that's a lie from Sidious witch was suggested in the latest Vader comic.




In that Video from Star wars explained we know that he was Sidious master and got killed in his sleep. He was wise and could save and create life. We don't know if he's a Muun early art show of him maybe being a neimoidian. I personally think that he's long dead by the events of TMP. By then he's a master with long years of having his own apprentice in Maul, he took Maul as an infant almost and by that momment i believe ploting to kill his master, after sensing the boy's power and potenial. We know from Canon that Sidious sought out Mother Talzin to be his ally and she tought him some of her dark arts and acient sith rituals. So around 20 years before TPM, he already had plans of taking the master mantle, first with Talzin as she was a powerfull witch then with her own son.





I Use this one as example that maybe by the time of Anakin's birth Plagueis is already dead and that makes perfect sense in my veiw, he's trainning Maul at this mooment to be a full fledge sith lord to rule beside him with their new empire coming. Maul would always be with him and would rule together as master and apprentice. Also see in this comic the sith didn't create Anakin, shmi was already pregnant by the time Sidious starting to influence dark magics into her womb. But is this fact or something Anakin thinks.

To cut this short how important do you think darth Plagueis is in the canon and how important you think he will become moving forwards. With all the theories of Plagueis in movies and what not. I thinkt by the time of Anakin's birth he's dead, killed in his sleep when not looking. The events we see in motions in the prequels is all Sidious, he's the phantom menace. He and Maul laid the groundworks for the clone wars, when Maul was believed to have died, he recruited Dooku and both of them created the clone army away from the jedi and installed the chips with order 66. Plagueis may have implanted some ideas into Sidious head but it was all him. From watching the movies and TCW, it all but confirms it for me that this was all Sidious plan and he was the master of the sith since before TPM.

EDIT. Oh and it seems only canon sources we have of him is in ROTS and in the book Tarkin. Nothing since then.

I love to hear your toughts on this, is Darth Plagueis important to the canon and it's future and why. thanks.

 

Yes he is. He was Palp's master.

 

How is it a lie?

He's important because, through the dark side, he achieved what Anakin was after. And Sidious is using that very power exclusively to a Sith Lord as bait for Anakin, even though Sidious himself never managed to do it as he eventually admits.

We know that from Revenge of the Sith. Not from some YouTube channel...

 

Yess and thats all there is now, for now.

 

Alexrd. Yeah i meant we learned that from ROTS, I used his video from what we now of Plagueis from canon. Also in latest vader comic he alludes to have been lying when telling vader that all truths are shrouded in lies.

 

Don't know what they are changing in the comics, but in the movie, there's no indication that Sidious was lying about the unnatural powers of his master. The dark side is a pathway to unnatural abilities. To imply that Sidious was involved in Anakin's conception is going directly against what was established in the movies. Plagueis was the only one who achieved the power to manipulate midi-chlorians. Wether he taught it to Sidious or not, Sidious never managed to do it as he ended up admitting.

As for how important he was? Well, he was a powerful Sith Lord and the master of Darth Sidious. He had no part in the events of the movies since he was long dead by that time, and Maul has been under Sidious' tutelage for years already.

His importance to the narrative and Anakin's story was already explained above.

 

With it still up in the air whether Plagueis directly or indirectly ''created'' Anakin or lead to his conception leaves it hard to tell just how important he is, but he's certainly significant in that he was the one to tutor Palpatine and presumably at least partly responsible for the new Sith scheme of taking power through schemes and politics instead of military conquest. No matter how powerful he might have been, Sidious would not have ended up all powerful Emperor if he'd been just another Sith warlord IMO and Plagueis had a part to play in that, though we don't know how big a part.

 

If we consider that the sith were hiding for 1000 years before TPM, i don't think it was Plagueis who was responsible for the sith strategy of political takeover.

I believe it was Darth Bane himself, when he introduced the rule of two, like it was in Legends.

 

Possibly but Plagueis had to be the one to actually tutor Sidious in how to achieve it. The Legends version of Plagueis had a lot of financial and political power that Sidious gradually usurped and took for his own but definitely gave him a good head start, and unless we hear otherwise I suppose we can assume the same is true still.

 

As far as canon is concerned, he doesn't really seem all that important. As far as the movies are concerned, he was just the central figure in a story Palpatine told to further sway Anakin towards him.

 

Does Palpatine use some of the knowledge gained from Plagueis to keep Aankin alive? Obi-Wan assumes he will die when he walks away, it's when Palpatine finds him and keeps him alive. I know the medical droids do their stuff - but Anakin being kept alive when he should really die and Padme dying although there's nothing wrong with her just feels like a manipulation behind it all. Is this the real power that Plagueis learned, the power to manipulate "life"?

I know it's unlikely, but the only knowledge we have as viewers of Plagueis is a small amount said by Palpatine, someone who is known to twist events to his own advantage. Similar to Obi-Wan's "he killed your father" in ANH, it can all be based on points of view.

 

That was the way the novelizations portrayed it, at least:

Adult ROTS novelization (Matt Stover)

A Naboo skiff reverted to realspace and flashed toward an alien medical installation in the asteroid belt of Polis Massa.
Tantive IV reentered reality only moments behind.
And on Mustafar, below the red thunder of a volcano, a Sith Lord had already snatched from sand of black glass the charred torso and head of what once had been a man, and had already leapt for the cliffbank above with effortless strength, and had already roared to his clones to bring the medical capsule immediately!
The Sith Lord lowered the limbless man tenderly to the cool ground above, and laid his hand across the cracked and blackened mess that once had been his brow, and he set his will upon him.
Live, Lord Vader. Live, my apprentice. Live.

Junior ROTS novelization (Patricia C. Wrede):

As the Imperial shuttle closed its wings and settled on the topmost landing platform, Darth Sidious saw a small starship fleeing from Mustafar. But he could not order the shuttle into pursuit—the uneasy urgency was stronger than ever, and it was tied to the planet, not the ship.
The clone troopers disembarked first, fanning out through the quiet building to make sure nothing would endanger their Emperor. They found only bodies. Then, as Darth Sidious inspected the control room, one of the troopers came in through an exterior door.
"There's something out here," he reported.
That's it. As quickly as he could, Darth Sidious followed the troopers outside, onto the black sand banks of the lava river. No, it can't be!
But it was. His promising new apprentice, who was to be the greatest Sith who'd ever lived—maimed and burned, perhaps dead. Darth Sidious ground his teeth in frustrated anger. Part of him wanted to turn on his heel and leave what was left of Darth Vader to burn to ashes in the rising lava. Even if he was alive, even if he could be saved, Vader would be crippled.
And not just with his mechanical limbs. The Force—dark side as well as light—was generated by living beings, and it took living flesh to manipulate it. Darth Vader would never be able to cast blue Force lightning; that required living hands, not metal ones. And with so much of his body replaced by machinery, he would never come close to the potential he'd had.
It was a great pity, Darth Sidious thought, controlling his anger, but perhaps not irreparable. Even diminished, Darth Vader would still be very strong, and there were no Jedi left to challenge him. Darth Sidious had seen to that himself. So he kept walking until he could bend over the body. And to his surprise, his apprentice was still alive.
Relief swept his doubts away. "Get a medical capsule immediately," Darth Sidious commanded, and clones ran off to do his bidding. Leaning down, he placed a hand on Darth Vader's forehead, using the dark side to keep him alive.

 

I think Darth Plageuis has a few main takeaway points for the saga:

1. Did Darth Plageuis and/or Palpatine create Anakin using the midichlorians? I know that there was a draft of the original ROTS script that suggested Palpatine had done this though this was later scrapped. I had heard about a recent Vader comic that also suggests this is true. However, purely from original canon sources, there really isn't any true link to this. Honestly when I had first watched ROTS my impression that Plageuis's ability to create life was meant to show Anakin that Sith powers could restore/create life which is what Anakin was looking for, given the possible death of his wife. In that sense, I felt the purpose of the life creation possibilities of the Sith was to tempt Anakin to the darkside by offering a power which Palpatine states the Jedi are not capable of.

2. Plageuis's story and Palpatine's betrayal of him shows the depth of manipulation and treachery that Palpatine was capable of. Not that we couldn't already sense that, but such an intimate and personal monologue about it was an eye opener for me. The reason was because that we always see people fall to the darkside due to anger and hate. With Palpatine and his reciting of his deed, he oozed with satisfaction and joy which really showed that his seduction with the darkside was one more so about pleasure and lust.

3. The story itself gives a great scene for the great Ian McDiarmid to give his best moment in all his Star Wars films.

4. I think part of what brought Plageuis even more to the forefront of discussion was the possibility that he and Snoke were the same person, or at least somehow connected. No one could figure out how someone so old and powerful as Snoke could just suddenly appear out of nowhere without having even been mentioned within the first 6 films. Plageuis made for a reliable explanation though I remember when Lawrence Kasden was asked about him, he didn't even know who he was and Abrams immediately shut down the notion that Plageuis was even an option. And of course now with Snoke dead we won't know if there is or isn't a connection at all barring a retcon exposition in Episode 9.

 

There would be no better way to let Snoke return in Episode IX, than making him Plagueis. This would also be a great way to connect the three trilogies.

 

I lost 10 IQ points reading this thread.

There's a book called Darth Plagueis, it's easily one of the best written Star Wars franchise fiction books, if not the best. Plagueis himself survives well into the events of TPM. Read it, or, if you are illiterate, listen to the audiobook (available in all good legitimate audiobook sellers and also youtube).

If you read it, bear in mind some of the words are long and it uses a thing called punctuation. So prepare yourself for that.

 

For those wondering, yes i have read the Plagueis book. It was a good book for Plagueis, but i don't believe he would live to TPM. Like i explained in my post i firmly believe he was killed by Sidious 10 years or more before. And when he killed him in his sleep, he was dead never to be heard from again. Snoke was always a new character never Plagueis. And if we got a new Plagueis book it would be changed drasticly to align with canon.

 

Sorry for my last post, I must have been in a very bad mood.

What's in the book that's actually been undone by the new canon? There are loads of references to legends and computer game characters and whatnot, but I recall them all being quite incidental to the plot, and also deliberately vague.

I wish Snoke had been Plagueis, or even Sypho Dias, anything to connect the saga together... I guess there's still a chance that there will be a Plagueis connection, but that doesn't seem to be the direction Abrams and Johnson took us in, sadly. I guess that's an expectation that might be subverted in the next film, or even the next trilogy, if there is one, but I'm not holding much hope.

 

Your post was the first I saw when I typed the URL of this site, months after my last visit. It made me feel relieved, happy even! The last two movies, but also what I've been seeing written by many SW fans (especially the hyped-up 'non-offensiveness' that seems to have creeped up in fandom), had made me feel a bit uncomfortable that I've been into this franchise since childhood (really got into it between ESB and RotJ). Something I'd rather not talk about in public... So, thanks for the snarkiness!

Indeed that Plagueis novel — you must be talking about James Luceno's book (the guy also wrote Tarkin, also very engaging, but Plagueis is better imho) — is one of the best products within the entire franchise. It manages to tie up a lot of plotholes / unexplored loose ends, in an organic, in-depth story. I too hoped that Snoke would be Plagueis, or at least be tied to him (didn't Plagueis have this macabre experimentation lab?) And it is utterly bizarre that Disney did not exclude it their simplified 'New Canon'; almost as if they think some depth would hurt the franchise. Not that I care, because I've, after a period of spiritual reflection, decided to personally no longer consider the stories in the new trilogy as relevant. I'm sure I'm not the only such heretic.

 

Maybe Snoke/Plagueis can still happen. Even if it wasn't the original plan. Those things can change. Especially if one considers that JJ talked about wanting to connect the entire saga in IX...

 

I expect that talk is just about having Ewan playing force ghost Kenobi, or some other superficial nostalgic call-backs. Nothing, in other words, that's to do with the overall plot of the saga. I hope I'm wrong.

 

I would like Plagueis to be the same as in the Old EU Palpatine being the mastermind and the antagonist of everything is boring

 

I think he is just as important as Snoke. Basically, not very. Both characters are pretty much devices to further someone else's plot forward (Anakin and Kylo).

 

Well if we're being purely functional in our thinking then every character is just a plot device to facilitate other plot devices. In that case Snoke is more 'important' because he's an active expositor, while Plagueis (merely the subject of two conversations) is just passive exposition.

 

I've stated in another thread on this before:

But I'd much rather think Plagueis at this point as a legend. He may or may NOT have been Palpatine's master, he may not even have existed at all and was just a story made up on the spot to lure Anakin. Not every character in Star Wars needs to be a 'real' person just as Heracles and Robin Hood wasn't.