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Saga Darth Plagueis importance in Canon, how important is he really ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Fredrik Vallestrand, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I would agree with you, but it's hard to take that look on Palpatine's face when he talks of Plagueis's murder as anything other than fond reminiscence. The subtext was clear to me even as an adolescent watching it in the theater.

    But the fact that he presents it to Anakin as a legend does give him cover when he admits to Anakin that he himself doesn't know the secret to cheat death. Anakin himself doesn't necessarily realize that Plagueis was probably Palpatine's master. That's something a lot of critics miss.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  2. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    you are right of course, I think if I was to watch the movies by themselves and I knew nothing of the books etc I'd like to think (personally speaking) of him as a character that did exist but there is a slight chance he didn't. I would also probably make my own head-canon that the reminiscence on Palpatine's face was more of Sith Lords ultimate dream: slyly ridding themselves of a master with little to no effort and him imagining doing that himself. Of course, this didn't happen and the scene does indeed heavily imply he was a real person and Palpatine's master. It's just fun to think of other alternatives sometimes.
     
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  3. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 12, 2012
    He's important inasmuch that he died off screen and reinforces the notion that Palpatine is a stone cold killah. I am surprised Palpatine would just kill him in this sleep, though. That's low even by his "standards". Like I would lean towards total Force duel with lightning all over the joint.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    I don't think Palpatine has any notions about honor.
     
  5. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2004
    Admittedly, I'm only talking from our perspective, the audience. In terms of his importance in-universe, though, well, he did train Palpatine.
     
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  6. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    So see this thread been sleeping for a while lol. So i was just thinking of something with all these perequel media coming this year and years to come, what kind of role you think Plagueis will have in the grad scheme of the sith?
    With the new Dooku audio drama you think we could get a few reffrences and connentions to him with Dooku as in legends they had a interactions.
     
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  7. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2013
    First of all, it's really great that Plagueis is still being around Episode I thing is now non-canon (legends), which means that Lucasfilm and Disney can choose a different path with Plagueis's timeline.

    Plagueis can't be alive at the time of Episode I, so I am not even considering that absurd possibility.

    All we know that Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep (though this is what he said to Anakin, and it could still be a lie).

    The logical choice would be approximately 25 years ago before TPM, before Palpatine stole Maul from Talzin, because Plagueis would never allow Sidious to do something like that when Sidious was still an apprentice, training a child from beginning shouldn't be allowed for him since there can't be more than 2 Sith. This rule is similar to the rule that a Jedi can't have more than 1 padawan so Qui-Gon needed to declare that Obi-Wan is ready.

    Not only that, even before Sidious takes Maul as an apprentice, Sidious worked with Talzin and they exchanged the secrets of dark side knowledge, and he promised Talzin to make her his right-hand. He couldn't work with Talzin and risk all of these when Plagueis was alive as well.

    [​IMG]

    So, I am guessing that Sidious killed Plagueis when Sidious was in his 30s, then took Maul and trained him until his 50s. Since Sidious was 65 years old in Revenge of the Sith, and TPM was 13 years before that. (Sidious was 52 years old in TPM)

    If Maul born in 54 BBY, he would be 22 years old in TPM. Considering Maul was young in TPM, he can't be more than 25. Palpatine probably stole Maul when Maul was 5 or 6 years old as we see from here;

    [​IMG]

    Maul can't be more than 7 in here.

    So Palpatine took Maul around 50 BBY, and Plagueis should be dead before this timeline.

    Anakin however, born in 41 BBY, so if Sidious used the Force on Shmi in 41 BBY, Plagueis was already dead and can't be alive logically. So, if Force didn't create Anakin, then it was Sidious alone.

    My guess is that, while Sidious trains Maul, (if he took him at 50 BBY, then he has already trained Maul for 9 years before Anakin born) he wanted to make plan B if anything happens to Maul, he would use this child from Shmi. And it actually worked. We don't know what Sidious did, he may use both the dark-side of the Force which he learned from Plagueis and then combine it with the nightsister magicks which he learned from Talzin to create Anakin.
     
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  8. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    I also think that he's dead by the time he started to work with Talzin, at least once he takes Maul. Palpatine gathered dark side knowledge from Talzin and she might had mutch more then his own master could have given him. We know that the dark rituals he does in both CW and Rebels is something he learned from Talzin with her magic's. Maul being her first born son was incredible powerfull in the force and could have challanged Anakin if not lost to Obi wan in his hubris. In the darks side book, it says that nightsisters can conceive children all by themself. So like Anakin, Maul might have been fatherless and his master becomes this father figure. Talzin might be the most powerfull character we seen outside the ones.
     
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  9. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017
    He's very important, he helped construct the plans to Destroy the Jedi. Sidious seems to have a lot of respect for his former Master and what he contributed to the Sith Plans to rule the Galaxy. In fact a major reason why the Sith overcame the Jedi, was because the Thousand years it took them to adapt and learn of ways to defeat the Jedi and take over while remaining hidden. The Sith had over a Thousand Years to plan and Darth Plagueis was in the final stages of the execution of this plan.
    As far as was Darth Plagueis still alive during the beginning events of TPM, I am not sure. We have Legends material that could be confirmed or changed, until we see undisputed Facts I'll leave that to be determined. Darth Plagueis taught everything to Sidious and he used that knowledge to execute the successful destruction of the Jedi and gaining Sith control over the Galaxy.
     
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  10. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 9

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    May 18, 2017
    If Palpatine does not tell Anakin the story, does Anakin even go to the Dark Side?
     
  11. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 10, 2012
    Probably. He's still obsessed with Padme, still lying about his relationship with Padme, still having mummy issues, still a genocidal maniac.
     
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  12. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 17, 2015
    Maybe Lucas wrote the Plagueis dialogue just for the case he makes a ST to explain how Palpatine could return. As a hint how he either survived or came back from death.

    Plagueis and what Palps was supposed to have learnt from him may have simply been MacGuffins and be introduced as a way to explain how Sheev was able to cheat death...
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  13. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    With the return of Palpatine in episode 9, will he mention his master darth Plagueis, when explaining his return from death. Just as a nod to Plagueis fans and theories. I'm sure after TROS we get a novel of how Palpatine olanned his return to the living before he died in case Vader betrays him. And in that he might mention him and Plagueis discovering the key to immortality. And after that Palpatine strikes down his master in his sleep.
     
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  14. Emperor Ferus

    Emperor Ferus Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 29, 2016
    In the context of the original Lucas saga, no more than a background character. As of right now, no different in the Disney canon. Just happened to have been the master of Palpatine, but anyone could have trained him. He was the big bad and his backstory was unexplored and relatively inconsequential.


    In the context of Legends as a whole, this changes somewhat. Plagueis interacts with several key figures, and his experiments in the Force possibly lead the midichlorians to create Anakin, who had always been the most important character. However, even without that, the saga works just fine.


    The Plagueis of the EU is an interesting character, with more depth than I would have expected, but his importance has always in my opinion been overhyped. I will admit that for a while, I hoped that Plagueis and Snoke were one and the same, but ultimately, any influence that Plagueis had on the saga remains in the past, and that is probably for the best.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
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  15. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    So i ask again how important is Darth Plagueis the wise in this new canon lore, he had alot of influence in the legends lore and how he made events that happened in the movies. Now with the release of The Rise of Skywalker, what new things have learned from him.
    In TROS, we have Palpatine qoute that the dark side is a path way to many abilites some consider to be unnatrual. Refrencing Darth Plagueis, we also now know that when a dark apprentiice strikes his master in anger the spirit of the master comes to posses the apprentice and depends on how strong willed you are either the spirit posses you or you control them. I wonder if Palpatine and Pagueis went there sometime and studied the ancient sith world. Also it seems now we have the sith cultist, I love if Plagueis was involved with them. The visual dictonary has now canonized darth Plagueis very own master, darth Tenebrous. I'm sure we will probaly get a new cann novel go into Darth Plagueis the wise soon enough.
     
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  16. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    With the upcoming reveal of the Ris of Skywalker novelization, we have more inofmation of Darth Plagueis. He might not been reffrenced in the movie but his abillities in TROS somehowremind you of Darth Plagueis.
    In the novelization we learned Darth Plagueis big secrets to immortality was essence transfer to other bodies, like clones. And we know now like in legends, his canon version is still into cloning and Palpatine might have this from him. the dyad in the force that Ben and Rey has, was something Darth Plagueis and Sidious tied to do but failed. Also when Palpatine escaped the death star and used essence transfer to a weak failed body, Palpatine thought that Plagueis might get the final laugh as he did not teach his apprentice everything, suggesting th Plagueis might have perfected the cloning with more time.
     
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  17. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 9, 2001
    I think some viewers fail to appreciate the fact that telling Anakin that Plagueis was killed in his sleep by his own apprentice is a lure to plant the suggestion in Anakin's mind that if he does join the Sith, he could always kill the master. The lure is that he could gain the power, defeat the master, and then be totally free. This is what he later tells Padme he wants to do.
     
  18. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    With the new Tv streaming star wars streaming serires takin place 50 years before TPM, i think we might finally get alive action appearance of Darth Plagueis. And it might awnser my questions of how important he is to the grand plan and how long he lived before TPM.
     
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  19. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    i really really hope so... also, more importantly on a chronological viewing.. this has to be the beginning instalment of Star wars, unless that High Republic thing happens or a KOTOR that's not a game (not a gamer)... hope its a great start
     
  20. antitoxicgamer

    antitoxicgamer Jedi Knight star 2

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    Sep 9, 2020
    Luke also tried to kill Ben similar to the way that Palpatine killed Plagueis in sleep.

    So, that's the only importance Darth Plagueis has to Sequel Trilogy, Alongside being the master of Palpatine.
     
  21. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    He had no other then being the master, and some funny fan theory. His story is more intresting once we get ito pre TMP.
     
  22. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 13, 2014
    As it stands now, Palgueis holds little importance other than being Sidious' master. Nothing in canon gives any definition to him, to what he did, or what he accomplished. So really other than being a story to lure Anakin to the darkside, Plagueis holds very little importance in Canon.
     
  23. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    hoping he will be part of tje acolyte
     
  24. Fredrik Vallestrand

    Fredrik Vallestrand Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jan 15, 2018
    I think acolyte and the 50 years story that will be explored will give us plenty of Darth Plagueis the wise. I can see him being one of the major characters.
     
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  25. Martin Hoffmann

    Martin Hoffmann Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 14, 2020
    I still think it was a bad decision, that Snoke was NOT Darth Plagueis in the sequel trilogy ...

    Hopefully Disney will use the character "Darth Plagueis" in one of the upcoming Disney Plus series!
     
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