Saga Darth Sidious: Ending the Mask vs Deformity Argument.

I only used the word scarred cause the person I was replying to used that word.

 

oh I see

so...question for you then.

Why is this unique to Sidious? why don't all people corrupted by the darkside become an external monster as it were? Bane? Plagueis? Venamis? Maul? Vader? etc

 

Maul's permanently yellow eyes may be a hint in that direction.

 

I can only assume that Sidious is the most rotten of the bunch.
I mean, they're all evil, but Sidious... He's in a league of his own.

 

Right before Anakin was burned on mustafar he had very noticeable eye bags and his eyes were glowing yellow. In just that short time he was already exhibiting significant signs of dark side degradation. It's very likely that dooku was also employing some kind of mask as well to hide his degradation.

 

I used to be against the mask theory but I just can't explain how his scars would return after getting healed in TROS (Or why his teeth are rotten and his nails change in ROTS)

 

Well, I believed this about Force lighting well before the PT anyways. Force lightning seems more like it inflicts great pain, but is mainly used as a sucker punch. Dooku took Anakin by surprise, but Ben was able to block it very easily with his lightsaber in an almost dismissive manner (which led me to wonder....why didn't Ben and Yoda tell Luke about this, but that's for another personal theory.) The ROTJ novelization also talks of Luke almost being able to deflect it for a bit. Yoda was initially sucker-punched by it in ROTS, and snuck in a Force push against Palpatine. This is interesting because of this line from the Annotated Screenplays:

"The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was possibly stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four and Luke is now at level two." - Annotated Screenplays

In fact, in the Ben/Anakin duel on Mustafar, they both attempt to Force push each other which, after a short stalemate, ends up blowing both of them on their butts, thus tying into the lack of Force use in their subsequent ANH duel.



Yoda and Palpatine end up in a push with Force lightning as well. So, unless you can catch your Force-using opponent unaware, direct Force use isn't really an option, which means most of the Jedi/Sith battles are either with lightsabers, or throwing objects at one another (Ben vs Luke on Cloud City, Dooku throwing a pillar at Anakin to divert Yoda, Yoda and Sidious throwing pods at each other, etc.)

The interesting thing about Palpatine's lightning is that, while it is not immediately fatal to a "normal" Force user, it is fatal to a Force user who depends on an metal-based electronic suit to survive. Vader only received a portion of the lighting that Luke did, but that was certainly more than enough to take out his life support system.

 

I would say this is retconned by Lucas, (as usual) since he said he wanted to see Obi-Wan's prime and prime of the Jedi in PT. So Ben can't be stronger than his younger self.

 

Maybe it has something to do with how much one uses the force and in what ways. More power could mean more and faster deformations and scarring

 

Physically, neither one is stronger than they were in their prime. The point of my post, though, is about Force strength and usage. Ben does defeat Vader in ROTS, and holds him off in ANH until sacrificing himself for Luke. There's very little Force usage in the ANH duel, and this is an explanation why. When I saw Ben and Anakin Force push each other away in ROTS, I immediately thought of this quote and its ramifications for ANH.

Then again, Force usage does change between ANH and ESB. In ANH, it simply aides and guides the user. In ESB (and the rest of the Saga), we see more telekinesis and extended telepathy.

 

In the Plagueis novel, Plagueis tells Sidious, “The more deformed you are, the more powerful you are” and that “you must be on the receiving end of Force Lightning to harness its full power.” Sure enough, in RoS, Sidious deforms as he gains power.

 

RoS is an aberration and doesn’t make much sense in a lot of areas. I believe this is another one of those cases.

 

I wonder if Plagueis was as deformed as Palpatine was.

 

What I meant that Lucas was never consistent about the Force usage through the whole saga.

Obi-Wan gets Force choked by Dooku in RotS, and before that Force pushed by Dooku in the same duel. And then before that against Maul in TCW, Obi-Wan got Force pushed and choked again during the duel.

Vader was supposed to be stronger than Dooku and Maul in the Force. If Vader wanted to do that, he should be able to do that to Obi-Wan. So that explanation doesn't make sense at all. Then again, Vader was able to Force push Ahsoka out of the Sith temple during their duel in Malachor, and before that Ahsoka Force pushed Vader at the beginning. And long before that duel, in Lothal against Kanan and Ezra, they were able to Force push Vader and almost killed him by throwing Vader under the AT-DP.



It looks like there are many factors in using the Force during a duel;

- Usually, they protect themselves so it won't happen.
Obi-Wan vs Anakin Force push contest in Episode III, as well as that Ventress vs Luminara Force push contest in TCW Season 1 Episode 9 showed us that they can protect themselves by using the Force during a duel.

Later in Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 03# (2017), Vader tried to Force choke Jedi Kirak, but Kirak Infil'a protected himself by pushing Vader back by using the Force.

- Catching off-guard, so your opponent can't defend themselves.
This is what Kanan and Ezra did to Vader, they were obviously not stronger than Vader, but Vader looked at somewhere else which gave them an advantage to push Vader by using the Force.

Savage Opress Force chokes Dooku, when Dooku was dueling with Asajj Ventress.

Yoda Force pushes Sidious when Sidious was laughing, and before that Sidious uses Force lightning on Yoda by catching him off-guard.

Dooku catches Anakin off-guard, due to Anakin's rage in Episode II, and he uses Force lightning and slams him into the wall by using the Force.

- Physically gaining advantage during the duel, so your opponent can't defend themselves.
This is exactly how Lucas showed us in the TPM, for the first time in Star Wars after the OT. Maul Force pushed Obi-Wan during the duel after killing Qui-Gon. But again, Maul didn't casually do that, he first gained an advantage against Obi-Wan, kicked him, then he tired him, and then overpowered him in a saber lock, then finished him with a Force push.

This is also how it happened in Vader vs Ahsoka, first Ahsoka gained advantage by using her speed and agility against Vader, and she pushed him. Then Vader's skills, his physical strength and stamina showed its power and he gained advantage against Ahsoka during the duel, and he Force pushed her out of the temple.

I am not sure where to put Dooku vs. Obi-Wan duel in Episode III. Is that catching off-guard or gaining advantage by outdueling your opponent? Dooku was seemingly losing the duel against Obi-Wan and Anakin, the sources states that he was retreating against them, but then again, there was no reason for Obi-Wan to be off-guard against Dooku, there was no distraction, so not sure how Dooku pulled that off while dueling with Anakin at the same time as well, and while retreating against them at the same time. This could be one of Lucas's inconsistency.

 

First off, I haven't watched TCW, so I can't add to that part of our conversation. That said, it looks like we're pretty much saying the same thing.

But I will say, I was a bit stunned by this line from Dooku: "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."

Force skills are cool, but watching Dooku throw lightning and Yoda block it all day would be boring. Especially since there's little to indicate Force use except for low-frequency humming, hands waving in the air, and objects flying around. Lightsaber duels pretty much had to rule the day in these films for the sake of excitement. That said, even Mike Tyson didn't go undefeated. The ability to duel and use the Force at the same time is a delicate balance, especially against a trained opponent, and sometimes, a lesser opponent can sneak in a clever move and win.

And let's face it....how many scenes did we watch in the films and think, "Why didn't [insert name here] just use the Force?" The Jedi do kinda handicap themselves by using the Force as little as possible, but sometimes their choices can be a headshaker. According to the Annotated Screenplays, Ben was more powerful than Vader in ANH, and yet Ben allowed himself to die, rather than take out Vader. In hindsight, we can argue that he did so because he knew he could still help Luke as a ghost (not a given at the time), or because he didn't want Luke to risk his own life trying to save Ben, or stormtroopers were showing up and would have given the advantage to Vader.....but in the end, the overriding reason was that Lucas decided that Ben's character had to die for the sake of the story - much like Han's character in TFA.

 

My issue with this idea is that Ben Kenobi is being more powerful than Vader in the Force. First of all, Vader has far better Force feats than Kenobi has, both offensively and defensively. Secondly, there are sources states that Vader was more powerful than he was in RotS;

If Vader was equal to Kenobi in RotS, while Kenobi was in his prime, then if Vader got stronger after RotS, he should be able to deal with past-prime Kenobi in ANH easily.

In another source, it states that Vader was superior to Kenobi and he was winning.

 

Ben could be capable of those feats as well, but chooses not to use them.

More powerful, yes.....but it doesn't say he's more powerful than Ben.

Again, there's a distinction between The Force and the Dark Side (which is funny, because Yoda - and to some extent - Luke, are able to deflect Force lighting. The "Dark Side" of the Force is still the Force.) It doesn't necessarily mean Vader is stronger than Ben, and according to the Annotated Screenplays, he's not.

Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy
coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore
through the boy's insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was at once
confounded and in agony—he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the
Force, let alone experienced it.
But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms
to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful—the lightning rebounded from his
touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed
and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them,
convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.

And don't forget, Force ghost Yoda generated Force lightning in TLJ.

 

Well, that's a big assumption, which needs to be proven.

My point is, if Ben Kenobi passed his prime according to Lucas, and according to other sources. And if Vader was even stronger than Anakin, when Anakin fought equally with prime Obi-Wan, then Vader should've been clearly superior to Ben Kenobi.

Which in my opinion he was, otherwise why would he give up and let Vader to kill himself. If he could defeat Vader, he wouldn't give up, at least he would try to destroy him alongside with himself, like Vader did with the Emperor.

The quote doesn't say that. It implies that Vader's dark side > Ben's Force powers. Then it continues with ''Obi-Wan knew it too. He began a retreat, backing away, his lightsaber itself seeming weaker as he moved.''

And Ben said this to Luke;

Ben Kenobi: ''If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.''
--- Episode V

It looks like they can only do limited things, or Ben can't do the things that Yoda and Luke can do as a Force ghost.

 

Padme scowled, pointing her fork at him and waving it threateningly. Then, suddenly, she went for the shuura again.

But Anakin was quicker. The fruit slipped out of the way, and she stabbed the plate. Then, before she could scowl at him again, the shuura rose into the air to hover before her.

"That!" Padme answered. "Now stop it!" She couldn't hold her feigned anger, though, and laughed aloud as she finished. Anakin started laughing, too. Half looking at him, Padme snapped her hand at the floating fruit.

He waggled his fingers and the fruit looped about her hand.

"Anakin!"

"If Master Obi-Wan was here, he'd be very grumpy," the Padawan admitted. He pulled back his hand, and the shuura flew across the table to his waiting grasp. "But he's not here," he added, cutting the fruit into several slices. Reaching for the Force, he made one piece float upward and slide toward Padme. She bit it right out of the air.

The Jedi are all about limited Force use. Force use should only serve the Will of the Force, and not simply to serve one's own needs. That's their whole mindset. And both Dooku and Palpatine were surprised by Ben's and Yoda's ability to block Force lightning. Apparently they didn't believe Jedi were capable of that. Vader didn't even know what had become of Ben after he disappeared. And I'll point out - again - that Yoda generated Force lighting in TLJ. The Jedi still had plenty of tricks up their sleeves.

"Palpatine will ultimately be disappointed with Anakin, after he's been permanently maimed by Obi-wan. "He's less than what you bargained for," Lucas says." - The Making of ROTS

That's your interpretation.

TARKIN
If you're right, he must not be
allowed to escape.

VADER
Escape is not his plan. I must face
him alone.

"Your destiny lies along a different path than mine."

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful
than you can possibly imagine."

There are better ways Ben can help as a ghost, as demonstrated in the film.

Lucas: "As you're building to the climax of an endeavor such as this, you want the situation to get more and more desperate and you want the hero to lose whatever crutches he or she has helping along the way. One of the challenges here is that Luke should be completely on his own. He has to face the Emperor one on one. - Annotated Screenplays

In earlier drafts, Ben and Yoda did appear as ghosts in the final duel. Ben even returns to his corporeal form in one case. It simply worked better to have Luke face Vader and Palpatine on his own.

 

Yoda has shown far better Force feats, because he is that strong. It has nothing to do with limited Force usage.

Ben himself said that Yoda is stronger than himself.

Ben Kenobi: ''You don't know that. Even Yoda cannot see their fate.''
--- Episode V

So it's wrong to use Yoda to hype Ben, because we already know that for sure that Yoda > Ben. So you can't say that Ben can do everything that Yoda does, there is a reason why Yoda is stronger than Ben.

No where it says that Dooku and Palpatine were surprised that they were able to block Force lightning. Especially with a lightsaber, that's a usual thing for a Jedi to do if they are not blinded by rage like Anakin was in Episode II.

It's retconned. In the new canon Vader > Anakin. And they said losing body parts doesn't make him weaker in the new canon as well.

The thing is, as long as it's not mentioned in the movies, they can retcon anything they want. Lucas's interviews or his opinions doesn't mean much in front of the new canon, if it contradicts with each other. After all Lucas's interviews are not part of the canon.

And Lucas is talking about the potential anyway, you can lose your potential but you can be stronger than your previous self when you had a great potential. Anakin had greater potential, but he never managed to use it. Vader reached his full potential, he couldn't surpass the Emperor, but he surpassed Anakin's former power when Anakin wasn't able to use his full potential.

How is that my interpretation when it clearly says that Ben had to retreat against Vader and Ben's lightsaber seemed weaker?

He couldn't know for sure that Luke could beat Vader in the future, or somehow he could complete Luke's Jedi training in the first place. Gambling over this, and letting himself die wouldn't be smart.

He could take down Vader, or kill him alongside with himself, and then train Luke as a Jedi. There is no difference. He was going to become a Force ghost whenever he died. Instead Ben surrendered against Vader, and he let Vader to kill himself.

Yes, the story demanded that Ben should be weaker and he can't interfere as a Force ghost. Not sure what your point is, the story made Ben weaker, so he couldn't interfere. We are talking about what actually happened in the movies right? Not that what it should've been, nor does the story makes sense or not.

 

That.....wasn't my point....

And yet, from your own post:

Obi-Wan knew it, too. He began a retreat, backing away, his lightsaber itself seeming weaker as he moved.

Vader backed Obi-Wan past an open blast door leading to the forward dock where the Rebel freighter was being held under guard. The old man was obviously tiring.

You're mine, old man, Vader thought.

But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.

It would seem that even a "weak and old" Obi-wan can still hold his own against Vader...

"We are talking about what actually happened in the movies right? Not that what it should've been, nor does the story makes sense or not."

"All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film." - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays

Killing Vader, the "Chosen One", solves nothing in ANH, as Palpatine is still in charge. It is Luke's destiny to face Vader as a trained Jedi, and it is Vader's destiny to destroy Palpatine.

And yet he still defeated the Emperor...

 

Why are you talking about Yoda's lightning thing in TLJ as a Force ghost then when we were talking about Force ghost Ben?

No doubt about that, he can hold his own.

But Vader was seemingly superior to Ben.

In your previous quote it says Ben was stronger than Vader. That's what I disagreed and I said it contradicts with the other materials.

Yes, no where in the movie it says that Ben could defeat Vader, but he chooses not to. He attacks Vader for that purpose several times, and he fails. He wanted to defeat him, but Vader was stronger than himself.

What you were saying that Ben could defeat Vader, but chooses to help them as a ghost, as if he was not going to turn into ghost if he killed Vader first and then sacrificed himself.

Vader is not the chosen one according to Ben at this point.

In the movie,

Luke: ''There is still good in him.''
Ben: ''He's more machine now than man... Twisted and evil.''
Luke: ''I can't do it Ben.''
Ben: ''You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.''
Luke: ''I can't kill my own father.''
Ben: ''Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.''
- Episode VI

Ben literally says that Vader can't be redeemed and Luke should kill him. So of course Ben doesn't believe Vader is the chosen one, instead he believes that Vader is someone who should've been destroyed. He wanted Luke to finish the job that he started at mustafar, which is destroying Vader. The same thing that Yoda asked from Kenobi years ago in Episode III, which is destroying the Sith.

Not sure what's your point now. You showed me the quote that says Anakin lost his potential. And I previously said that Lucas was talking about Anakin's potential, not his power level.

Vader cheap-shotted the Emperor, he didn't defeat him by being stronger than him. And then he got killed in return. So yes, Vader couldn't surpass the Emperor in terms of power level.

If Anakin reached his full potential, he would kill the Emperor without needing a cheap shot and he wouldn't need to sacrifce himself like Vader did.

 

At the time of ROTS, people were arguing that Yoda could not generate Force lightning (since it was a "Dark Side power"), only redirect it. Since TLJ is canon, we now know he can generate it as well, yet he didn't in ROTS. As I've said before, the Jedi show restraint in the films.

So now we're down to "seemingly"....interesting.

Ben did not "fail". Vader states quite clearly in the film that "escape is not his plan". Ben willingly gives up the fight to become a Force ghost, and assist Luke in fulfilling his destiny. As I said, killing Vader accomplishes nothing, since Tarkin is in control of the DS and is the one destroying planets with it. Meanwhile, Palpatine is still in control.

It's certainly not the first time Ben has lied to Luke, right?

He also "literally" says that Vader had killed Luke's father. And again, I remind you, Luke did redeem Vader, despite what Ben "literally" said.

You might want to consider some of the things Ben didn't tell Luke
1) Didn't tell him about the Prophecy
2) Didn't tell him Vader was his father
3) Didn't tell him about Palpatine's lightning
4) Didn't tell him that lightsabers can block lightning

Those are some pretty significant omissions. Suffice it to say, there's a lot more going on that what is being "said" in the films. All this knowledge could have significantly changed Luke's actions in the rest of the films. When I saw Ben block Dooku's lightning in AOTC, I immediately considered that Luke might not have thrown down his lightsaber in ROTJ had he known about Force lightning.....but then again, Luke fighting the Emperor wasn't the ultimate goal. As you'll see in my later quotes, it was always Vader's destiny to take out Palpatine...not Luke's.

So apparently Luke failed, because he didn't destroy Vader. And Ben did have the opportunity kill Anakin, but as I said before, he showed restraint.

In the end, there was only one choice. It was a choice he had made many years before, when he had passed his trials of Jedi Knighthood, and sworn himself to the Jedi forever. In the end, he was still Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he was still a Jedi, and he would not murder a helpless man.

He would leave it to the will of the Force. He turned and walked away. After a moment, he began to run. - ROTS novelization

The problem here is that you are focused on "POWER", much like the SIth were. Luke does not use the Force to turn Vader, and Vader doesn't use the Force to destroy Palpatine. Star Wars is a "David and Goliath" story, showing that the "Light Side" of the Force - calmness, peace of mind, inner strength, belief - will ultimately defeat the "Dark Side" of the Force - fear, anger, the desire for more power. By the end of ROTJ, everyone "believed" that Vader couldn't be turned, even Vader himself.....and yet, he did turn, as the Prophecy foretold.

"As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be
a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful—it doesn't have the
burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that
I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly
more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to
come by." - George Lucas
-
"The part I am working on now [ROTJ] is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he
became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the redemption
of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these
years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father.
That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film." - George Lucas: Annotated
Screenplays
-
It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How
do we get Darth Vader back?
-
LUCAS: It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But
it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was.
Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only
in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he makes a more
conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's
only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see
the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that
little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a
good heart. - Bill Moyers interview
-
Should Anakin have been trained?
"GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this
decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin
will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills
the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gon are
correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the
Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."
-
"Sam Davatchi's website reports that George Lucas told a reporter for Studio Magazine that Anakin is indeed
the one who brings balance to the force. In this interview, Lucas said that Anakin vanquished the Emperor
and brought balance to the Force, although he did need help from Luke to do so. In addition, Lucas said that
Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was
close enough to the emperor to destroy him. As pointed out by Cinescape Online, this fits into the following
statement made by Lucas in the Making of Episode I book: "The mystery around [the chosen one] theory is
that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force;
but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out." (6/18/99)." -1. In general,
what will the New Trilogy be about?
-
"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt.
There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin
Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force
and the Republic.
In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of
the end of democracy in the Republic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin
Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss,
possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.
Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and
six, where Anakin's offspring [Plural - MBJ] redeem him allowing him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings
balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe. - George Lucas - from
the American ANH VHS tape in the making of Episode II in the 2000 release.

A good comparison is The Matrix, which uses a similar plot line:

ORACLE
So? What do you think? You think
you're the One?

NEO
Honestly? I don't know.

She gestures to a wooden plaque, the kind every kitchen
has, except that the words are in Latin.

ORACLE
You know what that means? It's
Latin. Means, 'Know Thyself'. I'm
gonna let you in on a little secret.
Being the One is just like being in
love. Nobody can tell you you're in
love. You just know it. Through
and through. Balls to bones.

She puts her cigarette down.

ORACLE
Well, I better have a look at you.

She widens his eyes, checks his ears, then feels the
glands in his neck.

ORACLE
Open your mouth. Say 'ahh'.

She nods then looks at his palms.

ORACLE
Okay, now I'm supposed to say,
'Hmmm, that's interesting but...'
Then you say --

NEO
But what?

ORACLE
But you already know what I'm going
to tell you.

NEO
I'm not the One.

ORACLE
Sorry, kid. You got the gift but
looks like you're waiting for
something.

NEO
What?

ORACLE
Your next life, maybe. Who knows.
That's how these things go.

Neo almost has to laugh.

ORACLE
What's funny?

NEO
Morpheus. He almost had me
convinced.

ORACLE
I know. Poor Morpheus. Without him
we are lost. We will never find the
One.

NEO
What do you mean, without him?

The Oracle takes a long drag, regarding Neo with the eyes
of a Sphinx.

ORACLE
Are you sure you want to hear this?

Neo nods.

ORACLE
Morpheus believes in you, Neo and no
one, not you or even me can convince
him otherwise. He believes it so
blindly that he's going to sacrifice
his life to save yours.

NEO
What?

ORACLE
You're going to have to make a final
choice. In one hand, you will have
Morpheus' life. In the other hand,
you will have your own. One of you
is going to die. Which one, will be
up to you.
------------------------------------
TRINITY
Morpheus sacrificed himself so we
could get you out! There's no way
you're going back in!

NEO
Morpheus did what he did because he
believed that I'm something I'm not.

TRINITY
What?

NEO
I'm not the One, Trinity. The
Oracle hit me with that too.

Trinity is stunned.

TRINITY
No, you... have to be.

NEO
I'm sorry, I'm not. I'm just
another guy. Morpheus is the one
that matters.

TRINITY
No, Neo. That's not true. It can't
be true.

NEO
Why?

TRINITY
Because...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MORPHEUS
Do you believe it now, Trinity?

Trinity looks at Neo.

NEO
Morpheus, the Oracle... she told
me --

MORPHEUS
She told you exactly what you needed
to hear. That's all. Sooner or
later, Neo, you're going to realize
just like I did the difference
between knowing the path and walking
the path.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

TRINITY
What is he doing?

MORPHEUS
He's beginning to believe.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simply telling Luke that he could turn Vader back to the Dark Side isn't sufficient for a number of reasons. First of all, from a writing standpoint, it removes all suspense from the plot. Now, of course, we know Luke, as the protagonist, will ultimately succeed (Plot Armor), but we still have to believe there's a chance of failure, and Lucas drops in plenty of dialogue to make us concerned about his chances. I love this particular example:

When this line was written, there was no designated "other". It was simply thrown in to scare the audience. Later on in ROTJ, Lucas had to make Leia the "other" to address that line. He also had to make Leia Luke's sister, despite all the kissing that went on between them in ANH and ESB, lol.

[Ben] "You don't know that" [/Ben]

There's two problems with your scenario.....had Anakin killed Palpatine with his full potential, there's the problem with him turning back to the Light Side.

LUKE
You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead...and you
with me.

Like Ben, Luke went to face Palpatine with the intent of sacrificing himself for the greater good, to fulfill the Will of the Force. Escape was not his plan in ROTJ, just as it was not Ben's plan in ANH.

And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he
makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going
to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but
when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him
back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind?
Who had a good heart. - Bill Moyers interview

In and of itself, Luke's act seems stupid, but he knows that Palpatine has set up this confrontation as a trap, and he cannot fall into it. He must make the right choice even at the risk of his own life, as he had been taught by Ben and Yoda.

In the end, there was only one choice. It was a choice he had made many years before, when he had passed his trials of Jedi Knighthood, and sworn himself to the Jedi forever. In the end, he was still Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he was still a Jedi, and he would not murder a helpless man.

He would leave it to the will of the Force. He turned and walked away. After a moment, he began to run. - ROTS novelization

This was a choice Luke failed in ESB:

"I see them!" Luke exclaimed, his eyes still shut. Then a sudden agony, of
body and spirit, took hold of him. "They're in pain. They're suffering."
"It is the future you see," the voice of Yoda explained.
The future, Luke thought. Then the pain he had felt had not yet been inflicted
on his friends. So perhaps the future was not unchangeable.
"Will they die?" he asked his master.
Yoda shook his head and shrugged gently. "Difficult to see. Always in
motion is the future."
Luke opened his eyes again. He stood up and quickly began to gather his
equipment. "They're my friends," he said, guessing that the Jedi Master might try to
dissuade him from doing what he knew he must.
"And therefore," Yoda added, "decide you must how to serve them best. If you
leave now, help them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have
fought and suffered."

Yoda also failed this choice in AOTC when he saved Ben, which allowed Dook to escape. Palpatine was betting on Luke making the wrong choice yet again.

Luke has to have faith in the Force that some good will come out of his final act. What he doesn't realize is that he demonstrated two important points to Vader:

1) Luke did fall the Dark Side when he defeated Vader, and yet despite all the power it granted him, he was able to turn back from it. Up until now, Vader had been convinced this was impossible.

2) Anakin had been too scared to attack Palpatine because he knew it would be certain death. Seeing Luke's willingness to sacrifice himself for the greater good inspired him to finally make the right choice, regardless of the consequences to himself - a choice he would never make as a Sith (and a choice he failed in ROTS.)

 

I've no idea what Force lightning got to do anything with what Yoda did as a Force ghost, you lost me.

What Yoda did was not Force lightning, that was manipulating the nature and weather, that's not shooting lightning from his fingers. LOL.

And yet, Yoda still used far stronger Force powers than Kenobi ever used, you don't need wrong examples like those. Yoda is simply more powerful than Kenobi. It has nothing to do with Jedi restraints. Yoda and Kenobi are both Jedi and Yoda has better Force feats.

Yoda also mentioned that Kenobi wasn't strong enough to fight with Lord Sidious in Episode III, that has nothing to do with Kenobi's restraints.

You're consistently ignoring the quote that I used from the Death Star Novel, and twisting it to your own liking. The quote clearly says that Vader > Ben Kenobi, and it says Ben had to retreat against Vader and his lightsaber seemed weaker, that's what the novel said, not me. Lol.

Escape is not his plan, yes, is that mean he will sacrifice himself? :S

Ben's plan was to kill Vader, that's why he was fighting. That's failing.

Ben willingly gives up because he knows he can't win against Vader. Yoda doesn't kill himself while training Luke, just because he can turn into a Force ghost too. There is a reason why Ben didn't turn into a Force ghost before fighting with Vader in Death Star. He tried to defeat Vader first, he failed. And then he gave up.

What you are saying that ''oh, Ben did that on purpose'', if that's so why fight with Vader first and not give up at the beginning without fighting? What's the reason of that lightsaber duel? For fun?

Ben tried to kill Vader, then he failed and then he get himself killed by Vader.

Killing Vader was necessary, that's why he tried to persuade Luke for killing Vader, but he failed and Luke was right, Ben was wrong. There was still good in Vader.

I am starting to think you're trolling me now.

I mean sure Ben lied before but he had his own reasons for that.

There was no reason for lying about Vader anymore after Luke learning the truth. And Ben genuinely tried to persuade Luke to kill Vader. Not to redeem Vader. To kill Vader.

Ben clearly doesn't believe Vader is the chosen one anymore after RotS.

He also said the same thing in the Rebels, he said that Luke is the chosen one not Anakin. That's what he believed.

1) There was no need to, he already said Luke was their only hope.
2) There was a reason for that, that single lie doesn't make Ben a lying machine, LOL. Even Yoda approved that because he said it was too soon for Luke to learn that truth.
3) Kenobi didn't see how Palpatine fights before so, that's an irrelevant assumption that Ben knew it but he didn't say it on purpose.
4) Luke didn't have his lightsaber when he got shot by lightning, so that's also irrelevant.

Ben never knew that Vader was going to kill the Emperor.

''After Vader delivered Luke to the Emperor's throne room on the Death Star, and the black-cloaked Emperor orchestrated a lightsaber duel to test father against son, Obi-Wan became even more resolved that Luke had been unprepared for the confrontation. He's afraid of what will happen to Leia if he fails to defeat Vader, Obi-Wan thought. He must kill Vader.''
--- Source: The Life And Legend of Obi Wan Kenobi (2008)

In fact, Ben was surprised a LOT when he sees what Vader was doing.

''Obi-Wan knew that Vader would never help, and he felt almost overwhelmed by a sense of dread. Luke would soon be dead, and Vader would remain the Emperor's puppet. In fact, Obi-Wan was so convinced of Vader's nature that he was stunned by what happened next.

Had Obi-Wan's spirit not witnessed Vader's action, he never would have believed it. Vader, the same monster that Obi-Wan had left to die on Mustafar, had sacrificed himself to save his son. And suddenly Obi-Wan realized where he had failed. For unlike Luke, Obi-Wan had not only believed that Anakin was com-pletely consumed by the dark side, but had actually refused to believe that any goodness could have remained within Vader. And by refusing to allow that possibility, Obi-Wan had condemned not only his for-mer friend but his own capacity for hope.''
--- Source: The Life And Legend of Obi Wan Kenobi (2008)

So it's clear that Ben wasn't believing in Anakin after RotS. And he actually believed that they needed to destroy Vader.

''He looked down. Flame licked the fringes of Anakin's robe, and his long hair had blackened, and was beginning to char. "You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them. It was you who would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness. You were my brother, Anakin," said Obi-Wan Kenobi. "I loved you, but I could not save you." A flash of metal through the sky, and Obi-Wan felt the darkness closing in around them both. He knew that ship: the Chancellor's shuttle. Now, he supposed, the Emperor's shuttle.

Yoda had failed. He might have died. He might have left Obi-Wan alone: the last Jedi. Below his feet, Darth Vader burst into flame. "I hate you," he screamed. Obi-Wan looked down. It would be a mercy to kill him. He was not feeling merciful.

He was feeling calm, and clear, and he knew that to climb down to that black beach might cost him more time than he had. Another Sith Lord approached. In the end, there was only one choice. It was a choice he had made many years before, when he had passed his trials of Jedi Knighthood, and sworn himself to the Jedi forever. In the end, he was still Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he was still a Jedi, and he would not murder a helpless man.

He would leave it to the will of the Force. He turned and walked away. After a moment, he began to run. He began to run because he realized, if he was fast enough, there was one thing he still could do for Anakin. He still could do honor to the memory of the man he had loved, and to the vanished Order they both had served.''
--- RotS Novel

So Obi-Wan didn't kill him, because Anakin was already helpless and it would be a mercy to kill him and Obi-Wan wasn't feeling ''merciful''.

The reason why Obi-Wan went to confront with Anakin, was to destroy him. That's why Yoda sent him, not sure what your point here, are you saying that Yoda was thinking a different thing by saying ''destroy the Sith we must''? Anything other than killing them? I doubt so.

Mace was going to kill Sidious if not for Anakin, and he was still a Jedi and it's not like he was using the dark side.

Obi-Wan knew killing Anakin was the right thing, but other factors stopped Obi-Wan. It's not like he still believes in Anakin, and it's not like he still believes Anakin was the chosen one and it's not like he didn't finish him for that reason. He was just emotional, and he certainlty didn't believe in that prophecy anymore.

I have no idea what's that got to do anything with our conversation on this topic.

You showed me a quote that states Anakin had the potential to destroy the Emperor, and it says that his potential was so great that he could be twice as more powerful than the Emperor. But he never reached that raw power.
Then I explained that Lucas only meant Anakin's potential, not his former power level. And Vader surpassed that Anakin's former power level and but he lost his potential to be stronger than the Emperor.
Then you said Vader still killed the Emperor, as an answer to my reply. As if Vader killed the Emperor by being stronger than the Emperor.:S
Entirely two different things here.

Why would he need to use dark side to defeat someone weaker than himself?

Dark side is the easiest way to achieve a greater power, quickest way. Dark side is not stronger than the light. They are equals.

If Anakin as a Jedi, reached his full potential, he could destroy the Emperor without needing the Dark Side.

Yoda doesn't need dark side to defeat Dooku. He could defeat the Emperor if he was stronger. Mace almost defeated Sidious without turning to the dark side.

So, he didn't need dark side to defeat the Emperor if Anakin had reached his full potential.

 

Plagueis himself as deformed in the novel named for him.