Saga Darth Sidious: Ending the Mask vs Deformity Argument.

I've never said Ben was stronger than Yoda, nor did I say Ben could go against Palpatine. And if you don't believe the Jedi restrain their Force use, then there's little point continuing this debate, since it's a core difference between Jedi and Sith.

And the very next line has Ben surprising Vader with near-fatal moves.

He's buying time for Luke to escape, since Vader is heading for the Falcon. As soon as Ben sees Luke is ready to board the Falcon, Ben smiles and allows Vader to kill him, knowing that he's served his purpose. From Death Star:

But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.

A group of stormtroopers standing in the dock became aware of them. Vader felt rather than saw them notice the strange duel, and sensed the troopers heading toward them.

He did not wish them to interfere, but even to warn them off would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.

Vader heard someone call from the dock: "Ben?" It was a young man's voice. Still he could not risk a look in that direction.

But Obi-Wan glanced away, quickly, then looked back at Vader. Then he did the last thing Vader could have possibly imagined-He smiled.

It was an expression not the least worried; almost beatific, in fact. Then, still smiling, Obi-Wan lifted his lightsaber so that the tip pointed straight up at the ceiling.

The action was so totally unexpected that Vader paused for an instant in shock. Not even the Force had lent him prescience concerning this. His former Master had left himself wide open. Was it a trap?

It didn't matter. If it was, Obi-Wan wasn't fast enough, or strong enough, to spring it in time. Vader shifted his lightsaber and cut from the right, hard, aiming for the neck-His lightsaber sheared through the old man as if the latter were no denser than the air itself, and Obi-Wan collapsed.

Yes! Fierce, exultant joy coursed through the man who had been Anakin Skywalker. He had done it! He had slain Obi-Wan Kenobi! His revenge was complete!

From a distance he heard someone scream "Nooo!"-a cry of utter despair. But Vader paid it no heed. The dark side surged within him as powerfully as he had ever felt it-for an instant. But then it stopped.

What had just happened?

Vader looked down at the body. But there was no body. Only Obi-Wan's robes and cloak.

This was impossible! It could not be!

The squad of stormtroopers began firing at somebody in the docking bay, but Vader could not be bothered to look. He stepped forward, stared down in disbelief. An illusion of some kind? Some Jedi mind trick that the old man had never imparted to him?

Impossible! Obi-Wan had taught him everything Vader knew . . .

But, whispered a voice from within, maybe not everything that Obi-Wan knew.

As I've said over and over, Ben still has some tricks up his sleeve.

I agree that Ben went with the intention of killing Anakin in ROTS. Not once did I say otherwise. My point was that Ben showed restraint when Anakin was helpless...something you still haven't quite grasped.

IIRC, Ghost Ben and Yoda were able to talk to each other, and Yoda knew about Palpatine's lightning.

"All this knowledge could have significantly changed Luke's actions in the rest of the films."

You're right...it IS two entirely different things. Vader didn't have to be "stronger", in terms of the Force, than the Emperor to defeat him....Vader's problem was that he convinced himself that he had to be, that Force powers were the end-all, be-all. It's the mistake that all Sith make, and it was their undoing.

There's been many threads debating that.

Perhaps.

In fact, he didn't even need the Force to defeat Palpatine...something he didn't understand until it was too late.

 

I said that Ben doesn't have Force feats that equal to Vader, then you started to talk about ''Jedi restraint'', and I gave an example about Yoda, who is also a Jedi but he has far greater Force feats than Obi-Wan has also.

Then you said they can use dark side powers by giving example from TLJ where Yoda manipulates the weather and nature somehow, possibly via the living force - force ghost bond / connection, and you compared that to the Force lightning ability when there was no connection between the two things.

He can surprise or hold his own, the point was Vader's superiority, even if it was only a little, it wasn't easy, but Vader was stronger than Ben, not the other way around. That's why I didn't find that the idea of Ben being stronger than Vader is logical, it contradicts with the official sources and new sources.

Vader was going after Obi-Wan. He specifically said that, not anyone else. He says; ''I must face him alone.''

It's not like Vader went after Luke and the others and then Ben stopped Vader and delayed him. That didn't happen.

So, both duels are the same, Obi-Wan wasn't believing in the chosen one anymore and he needed to kill him. It's not like Ben started to believe in Anakin years after, and he didn't want to kill Vader. On the contrary, he specifically says that Luke needs to kill Vader. He shows restraint only after defeating him. He was in no position to defeat Vader again, he knew that as well, which is why he was desperately asking from Luke and relied on Luke's potential for years to defeat the Sith.

You were talking about Ben, and his ability to lie. Not Yoda's. Lol. So if Yoda is a lying machine too, then that's a different discussion. And there is no reason for Yoda to inform Ben about the Emperor's fighting abilities, Ben wasn't going to fight with the Emperor, Yoda already said Obi-Wan is no match for Lord Sidious in Episode III.

Perhaps they never thought Luke would disarm himself so they didn't tell him ''don't you ever disarm yourself against the Emperor'' that would be redundant anyway.

Also Ben's and Yoda's main focus was killing Vader first, not the Emperor. And Vader can't use Force lightning. They already know Luke couldn't beat the Emperor anyway, with the Force lightning knowledge or not, it wouldn't make any difference since Luke would lose against the Emperor anyway. So that's how it is.

Well, I wasn't talking about Sith Vader. I was talking about Jedi Anakin, in a scenario where Anakin never turns to the dark side, manages to use his full potential as a Jedi, and defeats the Emperor.

You mean it's not dark side = light side?

Interesting.

Well, it will always come to the Jedi vs. Sith battle one way or another, surely military might and the senate, the republic and the help of the other systems are important, but even at the end of RotS, when Palpatine had all the advantages, the senate, the army etc. Palpatine still had to fight against Yoda, he couldn't get away with it by using his army. So I guess it's possible but it's very hard to do it.

 

I was referring to Anakin's final act, but I'm just going to leave it at that. MTFBWY.

 

Lightning does, indeed, deform one's face like that. I have many friends that have suffered Lightning Deformity. I had to dismember each and every one of them.

 

If Palps deformations are caused by using the force heavily for the dark side, could that mean that Vader had an easier time getting redeemed?

Maybe his damaged state because of his injuries made it more difficult for him to fall deeper and be changed further by the dark side...