Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Johnny Stephan, Feb 12, 2022.
To What extent did Darth Vadar love luke before He saved Luke from the Emperor?
Before? Not at all.
"I will not turn, and you'll be forced to kill me"
"If that is your destiny"
Not exactly the thing a loving father would say to their son. It wasn't until Luke was being tortured by Sidious' force lightning that Vader had a change of heart and saved him. He couldn't ignore it when the flesh and blood born from his love of Padme begged Vader to save him. In that moment, Anakin returned and Darth Vader was cast away.
But then how is it that when Vadar had defeated Luke before when they fought He never took advantage of any of the chances He had to kill him? If he did not love Luke would he not have killed him?
You don't go from zero love to "I'll give my life to save you" in a matter of seconds.
Anakin was conflicted and he had been ever since TESB, just as Luke said. He learned that Anakin Skywalker had a son out there and the moment he recognized that kid as his kid, he admitted to himself that Anakin, to paraphrase Luke, was his true self. That's where the conflict began. Deep down at first, then slowly ascending to the surface.
Him saying "If that is your destiny" is him refusing to admit that Luke is right; that there is conflict within him.
It gets really obvious when he flat out says "There is no conflict". Like, who are you trying to convince, pops?
I'd say he was tremendously proud of Luke and felt a great deal of affection for him. Sidious still had a firm grip on him, but his dark side was fighting a losing battle.
Stepping over the last threshold, into the selfless kind of love that makes you put someone else's life before your own, was the hardest part. He had to be forced to risk everything to save someone he loved, someone who loved him in spite of everything he'd done, to take that step.
For real? I always kill people I don't love. Now you're telling me I'm doing it wrong?
Darth Vadar Lives !
He probably didn’t start fully loving Luke until the latter was screaming on the floor.
Agreed. Vader initially thought of Luke as a potential tool, but the more he spent time around Luke, the more the dark side lost its sway over him and he began to understand the concept of remorse again.
Well put. If anything, I'm glad certain characters in fiction like Vader get to have multiple authors interpret him.
Vader's view of Luke isn't that simplistic, he does love him in his way but I think it's more to do with Padme, his feeling of loss that happened at his own hands. Vader likely loved and deeply misses the ideal of the family unit he'd obsessed over in the weeks leading to becoming a Sith. For 19 years he believed that had died with Padme, that changed with the destruction of the first DS, now he has something left of Padme, every threat he makes to Luke is hollow. the worst he does is cause an injure he himself has suffered.
Thank heavens he didn't cut off Luke's other limbs and set him on fire.
He loved Luke |this much|.
Agreed. Vader's regrets over failing Padme factored into it, I'd wager. He didn't want to fail Luke, too.
I am of the view that Vader loved Luke as soon as the Emperor told him The Son of Skywalker lives. Vader immediately tries to seay his Master in a scheme to turn Luke to the dark side, which in Vader’s view, would save his life.
Luke also mentions in Return of the Jedi that Vader would destroy him on Bespin, which again was Vader’s love for his son.
Yeah indeed. I completely agree.
Vader's redemption arc is dependent upon Luke. Luke is one of the best fictional protagonists not due to his powers or prowess, but because of his sheer drive to use the full power of his empathy.
One of the most relatable things about Luke is his desire to help his father wake the heck up the from the dark side.
And ultimately, the reason that Darth Vader and Doc Ock are two of the most popular villains in fiction arises from their respective redemptive arcs. In very different ways, Luke helps Vader choose redemption over his despair and greed, and Spider-Man helps his idol, Dr. Octavius, choose redemption over his experiment.
I've always seen Vader as interested in Luke (not particularly caring for him) because he presented the opportunity to dethrone the Emperor. Vader is already quite powerful, and there is finally someone he can train that he knows will side with him again Sidious. It's the chance of a lifetime to fulfill his role as a Sith apprentice and get rid of his master.
However, as he sees Luke caring for him, believing in him, loving him... it all start eroding his grand plans of ruling the galaxy. Suddenly, he is questioning the choices he has made in the last 20 years, and wondering if power really is what matters the most. After all, he wanted power in the first place to protect the ones he loved, and now he has all the power he wished for, but no one to love, no one to protect. Power by itself is empty, but with Luke, he gets a second chance at the things that really matters: he gets to love someone again and, as the novelization says, to love himself again while at it...
No I don't think Vader felt love at all until the moment he saw his son electrocuted by his Master, Only someone who cares would save another from harm even if there was no particular benefit because if Vader wanted to use this as a selfish opportunity he wouldn't have thought about it for a second hence the conflict arising in him before making the decision to save Luke.
This is what makes TESB and ROTJ so great as stories. I'm sure it brought more fans to the table.
Remember that Vader offered Luke to overthrow the emperor together in TESB. He wanted to be with his son but he had also fully immersed into the dark side. At the time he thought Luke was the only thing left of Padme. He absolutely did not want that to die. His strategy throughout TESB and ROTJ was to turn Luke to the dark side (and ideally overthrow the emperor) but things changed when Luke would not turn and Palpatine was killing his son. At that moment he realized that his family (Padme, Luke, Leia) was more important than his infatuation with the dark side and power.
The ROTJ novel sys that Ani first truly loved Luke when he was dying on the boarding ramp of the shuttle. It was also the first time in many years that he loved himself, as well. He'd had to finally shed his Darth Vader identity, and all the baggage that came with it, to truly love anyone, really. Up until then, Luke was either a means to an end (like seizing total power from the Emperor) or someone he had no real understanding of (like how Luke would choose attempted suicide over Dark Side power, or how he'd risk his life to help his worst enemy reform).
He had some (emphasis on some) compassion for Luke before ROTJ. He may have fought him and sliced off his hand, but he did want him to rule by his side. And I don't think it was purely for practical reasons. In his own evil way, I think the idea of ruling the galaxy together as father and son is the closest a Sith can usually come to admitting love or compassion for a family member.
But I don't think any feelings for Luke in a serious manner arrived until Vader was cast aside and the Anakin part of his soul returned. It was a slow burn over the years for him to be interested in Luke and try to avoid killing him to outright loving him as his son.
To your point, Darth Denj, while Vader was close to wanting to come with Luke on Endor, he was not quite as close to accepting him as a normal father and turning his back on the dark side just yet. It would take the pivotal choice between remaining a Sith and saving his son from his master to force the issue.
In my view, the first reason for Vader wanting Luke is that he is his son. The overthrone stuff is important of course, because he's a Sith, but not the main reason. After Luke refused to turn, he should have just disposed him as fast as Palpatine tried to do in ROTJ. But, on the contrary, Vader still tried to reason with Luke ("My son", "Come with me", "It's the only way",...) Of course, his actions at Bespin were horrible, but not so much giving the violent ways Vader was used. Basically Vader's actions at Bespin could be counted as an unhealthy dose of tough love. At some pivotal point, after the shock, Luke should have realized that too, because he was absolutely sure that there was still good in Vader in ROTJ.