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Kenobi Darth Vader in Kenobi Series

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Current and Future Shows' started by RX_Sith, Jul 18, 2020.

  1. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    To be honest, the bonus-round duel I could do without, but more Obi-Wan as played by Ewan, I can't do without. So if getting the latter comes with the former attached, I'll take it.
     
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  2. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    It absolutely is about fan service. And yes, this is a show to bridge the gap between trilogies, but you have to honor and respect the events of both. For as much as this is a direct sequel to the prequels, it is also a lead into the originals. And when you start doing fan service type things without consideration of what has already been established, you begin to invalidate the events of what has been established, both before and after. Whether you like their duel on Mustafar or not, it is still one of the more poignant moments in all of Star Wars. Having them meet again undermines the gravity and the meaningfulness of their duel. Having them duel again begins to unwind the already established events of the OT, and beyond.
     
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  3. RetropME

    RetropME Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 11, 2017
    Bingo. More Ewan/Obi-Wan is always welcome!
     
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  4. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Yep pretty much. If the fuel needs to happen to get more Ewan or Hayden so be it
     
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  5. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    But “retconning” has been happening since the PT. Anakin built C3PO. R2D2 was part of Obi-wan’s most consequential missions, but doesn’t seem to remember R2 for some reason. Chewbacca not only knows Yoda, but helped him escape into exile. Etc, etc...
     
  6. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    Are those truly retcons though?
    One matches what was said in the OT, the other two were never talked about and therefore couldn't be retconned. They certainly add information that didn't exist before, but it doesn't contradict anything.

    1) We never heard who build 3PO. It wasn't something that seemed relevant in any way. The only thing we really learned about him was his "first job", but that isn't really a problem due to his memory only being what other people let his memory be.
    2) Obi-Wan only ever said that he doesn't remember having owned a droid, which is true, he never did. R4 went on missions with him, but that doesn't make him his, he still belonged to the Jedi Order. And Obi Wan certainly didn't ever own R2. Without having any idea of what would be added in the future, Alec Guinness just played those scenes perfectly.
    3) Chewbacca knowing Yoda isn't something that was ever brought up either. The two never met in the OT, nor was Chewie ever around when the name got mentioned. He only ever reacted to Obi Wan going out all alone on the Death Star.

    That being said, there certainly are some changes that are either a retcon or which bend prior history quite mightily, be it Leia remembering her true mother, or Vader accusing Leia of her ship having communicated with Rebel spies, so it truly is nothing new. Sometimes you just change things because you think the payoff is worth the slight divergence between source material. Heck, the OT had it's "from a certain point of view" stuff being added to explain the complete change of course regarding Anakin and Vader.

    Personally, I really don't need to see Vader and Obi Wan face off again. I don't think it truly fits. Then again, lets see where they go with it. Even something that might sound a bit off in terms of continuity might still end up being great if handled properly. It's all about the execution.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  7. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Perhaps not pure retcons, but man are they insanely convenient coincidences and universe-shrinking elements that can be legitimately called fan service.
     
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  8. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Yes, they are convenient coincidences that shrink the galaxy. An Obi-Wan/Vader duel would be the same thing. The difference is the ones you listed didn't directly affect or alter the events that came after them. An Obi-Wan/Vader duel does that.

    And while I'm sure they could tell a great story in having them duel again, it doesn't matter how great it is if contradicts canon and continuity. It has to fit within what has been established. I'm sure the writers could tell a whole bunch of great stories, but it doesn't mean much if it doesn't make any sense when put together.
     
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  9. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    In that respect it's more likely going to be either pretty irrelevant or largely redundant. The PT and the OT are already tied together in a thousand ways that will never be duplicated to that depth or degree.

    Can it expand out the connections that we know already exist? Sure but I think in a more particular way the tying won't be the PT and the OT but TCW by live-action representation of Obi-Wan and Anakin from these reported flashbacks. Taking threads from parts of arcs like Qui-Gon for instance. Even though that is stated in ROTS and there was a cut scene with Yoda and Qui-Gon the strand of the Force ghost contact is a TCW expansion.

    The problem inherent in terms of linkage is like we see in Rogue One where various elements of the story don't jibe with one or the other movies be that something like the look of Mustafar where hell has cooled off or the Death Star being "sabotaged" but still working or just the ending where Leia's escape doesn't tie in with how they were tracked down (via transmissions from the spies).

    ANH makes it that Leia was the only person on the ship who knew where the hidden base was but now we would ask who on the Tantive IV didn't know it was Yavin? So many people were there now that it's a wonder they didn't find it! Never mind that after escaping they must have went to go get R2 and 3PO then head to Tatooine! Yes that was just an editing error with difference between the cuts but it's still there.

    I've never really understood how this contraction of the galaxy argument works. For one that was part and parcel of Star Wars from the very start before TESB because Luke was Anakin's son and also the one person in all the galaxy that Obi-Wan was overlooking and hoping to train as the "New Hope/Chosen One".

    Obi-Wan wasn't out looking to train anyone else. Luke was set-up as specifically special then sent to Yoda. They particularly wanted him. Why? We never really found out until the PT gave us the backstory. Sure we can say thematically it's Arthurian with the Lighsaber/Excalibur passing to the son of Uther or something like that depending on the version of the story one uses. Obi-Wan is Merlin and so on.

    The point being Lucas uses a Dickensian form of linkage where characters and events end up linking together. Hence the total change in the Clone Wars from the original but unstated version where they lasted decades and are what drew Obi-Wan and Anakin to being Jedi to events that happen much later and for a much shorter period. Then he makes Boba Fett a clone of Jango who is the clone template. All of these things are tied together from the threads of the Mandalorians, the Super Commandos and Boba Fett's connection with both in the first place.

    Well let's hope it's great.

    As for what is established they actually have more space for one more meeting than Lucas had for Anakin and Darth Vader to end up being the same person. It's far easier to have one meeting at the halfway point of ANH and ROTS and still have it work.

    ANH has always had to be worked around because it's the only time that Vader was not intended to be Anakin.

    When it's done by Lucas himself then it is but in the context of Lucas himself being the fan who is doing it. Like he has said the prime reason for doing these movies was because he wanted to see them and no one else was doing them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  10. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    Isn't a retcon when you change something that was originally different? i think there are elements that don't really suit being seen as retcons because there isn't enough to contradict them. i mean Anakin creating C3P0... is that a retcon? i mean sure its an element that brings C3P0 into the mix alot earlier, but is it a retcon? is there anything said in the OT that makes it a retcon? id argue there is nothing said to make it a retcon. its just a new addition to canon that no one thought existed
     
  11. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    My hopes:

    Hayden wearing the suit and mask off, even if briefly
    Fully suited Vader in combat
    Hayden flashback to the Clone Wars (this would be a bonus)

    With the way things have been lately, I think all three are possible.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
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  12. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    A lot of people here want to see Vader doing badass Vader stuff. I get it. I really do. Saw the hallway scene in Rogue One and you all got special happy force feelings in your Jedi pants. Now you want to see more. I've seen from some of you who want to see Maul doing badass Maul stuff too. Well, I think I have an idea that would satisfy both.

    Luke and Leia were born in a spaceship above Polis Massa. Which means Kenobi was technically there. Polis Massa also became a sanctuary for Jedi who survived Order 66. I'd have it where word gets to Vader that there are Jedi living there, and that it's the last known location of Obi-Wan. We cut to Vader going gonzo on the former Jedi who made Polis Massa their home. Anyway, Maul catches wind of this, and since he is obsessed with revenge on Kenobi, he goes there as well. They come across each other while searching for Obi-Wan, and duel for who gets to be the one to kill Kenobi. As the fight rages on, Maul is able to sense that Obi-Wan is not there, and abdicates the honor to Vader, and leaves the planet. After Maul leaves, Vader realizes that Obi-Wan is not there, and is enraged over being fooled by Maul as he missed his opportunity to exact revenge on Obi-Wan, and to kill his master's former apprentice.

    We cut to Obi-Wan perched on rocky outcropping overlooking the Lars' homestead.......

    We get badass Vader. We get badass Maul. We get badass Maul vs Vader duel. NONE of this disrupts or invalidates anything established in canon or continuity. With what we see in Rebels, this feeds into the notion that they both have an inkling that Kenobi is already dead, even if they cannot confirm it one way or the other. It also adds to the burning desire for revenge against Obi-Wan that both harbor. Vader's lust for revenge festers as he is hindered in wanting to search for Obi-Wan by his responsibilities within the Empire. For Maul, his lust for revenge grows out of frustration for being so close, and pushes his drive to find Kenobi that much more.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
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  13. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    There’s nothing in canon that says Obi-wan didn’t encounter Vader post-ROTS.

    You’re also assuming that most fans just want Vader and Maul being badass, regardless of the story being told. Perhaps stop making assumptions about other people. Not least as those assumptions are simply your very jaded and simplistic interpretation of what “a lot of people want.” The Vader scene in Rogue One was brilliant for all kinds of reasons, with Vader going on a rampage only being one of those reasons. The narrative context, the setting, the story, the Rebels facing him down despite certain death, etc - all that matters.

    Having an opening scene on Polis Massa completely disconnected from Obi-wan, between two titans fighting each other over the dubious reason of having the honor of killing him, would to me fall flat. I have no emotional investment in that story.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  14. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Sure there is, it's called A New Hope.

    I have assumed nothing.My comment is based on the comments I've seen in this thread. I did not say all, or imply a majority. However, you're assuming I did. You're assuming my view is jaded only because you don't like my comment. You're assuming my comment applies to you. No, it's for those who are thinking along the lines of what I stated above. Or maybe I hit pretty close to the mark, and you felt the need to lash out because you think you've been called out for being one of those fans. Or maybe don't make assumptions about other people's points of view and the motivations behind them.

    Agree that the Vader hallway scene was brilliant. Agreed story and context means everything. But just because they can tell a good story, doesn't mean it's a good idea. I thoroughly enjoy Maul's story even though I didn't like the idea of him surviving being cut in half. For me, bringing characters back from the dead, regardless of how good of a story they can tell, cheapens the events that surround their death, and the characters involved in those events.

    Not every person is going to like everything. I was merely making a point of, and giving an example of, how there are ways to do things without disrupting what has been established, and yet still giving a nod to what some fans want to see.

    I've stated why I don't like the idea and have been clear and concise in my comments. I have provided a cogent argument as to why I don't like this idea, even aside from the disruption of canon and continuity. Now you're quick to disagree with me, which is fine. Not everyone has the same point of view, but I haven't seen anything as to why you think it is a good idea. You've argued against the logistics of whether there is wiggle room, but nothing as to why you think it's a good idea. What is the benefit of having them face off again? How does it improve their relationship, or lack thereof, between the two at this point in the Star Wars mythos?

    Edit: I've seen you make excellent arguments, and give great insight in other threads. I generally respect your opinion, even when we disagree.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  15. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Of course that is part of it but only one part as Bor Mullet went over. The other aspect is in conjunction with what has been seen, mostly in the comics, where Vader is internally struggling with his Anakin side. In the movies that struggle was seen externally to some degree but since it's really going on inside the Vader and Anakin psyche it best works in a medium where you can flow visuals both external and internal with memory and thought all at the same time. Have they gone kinda overboard at times so that it's been done too much? I'd say so.

    I think when you have Vader going to Polis Massa and watching partial holo-recordings of Luke's birth (but the recording conks out before he sees Leia) that along with all the other avenues they go down is going to the well too often. Any one in itself isn't so much a problem but with Vader tracing her to Naboo then having interactive visions of Padme and whatever else they've done then it stretches the concept out too much.

    Obi-Wan and Vader can meet once again. It's plausible while also being somewhat but not overly problematic. To retain any credibility it can only happen this one time.

    In regards to the "badass Vader stuff" the difference between the imagination of what Vader was capable of and the reality of what they could do never met until Rogue One. The way the movies worked and the production ability to achieve them weren't in line during the OT. That wasn't really the main point anyway and during the PT Lucas wasn't interested in armored Vader cutting down Jedi.

    That arguably should have been a movie that Disney should have done separate from Kenobi but as this series was supposed to be the 2020 movie that would have been released just over a week ago if all had gone to plan then that wasn't the intention.
     
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  16. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    Fair enough. The reason I responded the way I did was essentially because the tendency is to speak/ respond only to the extreme voices in the fandom (those who just want badass fan service vs. those who are opposed to anything that has even a whiff of fan service). And so reasonable perspectives somewhere in the middle get lost in that. I think there are hundreds of ways, for example, to make another Vader-Obi standoff be valuable from a story and character perspective. I don’t really know anything about what Chow has in mind, though, so I can’t comment on the value of it. I just know that the canon has enough wiggle room to allow for it. And I know there are good storytellers in the wings that could make the most of it, story and character-wise. Maybe it’ll end up being empty fan service, but I doubt it. Just as Filoni did wonders with a resurrected Maul, I think Chow could do the same here.
     
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  17. RetropME

    RetropME Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2017
    I do hope that Maul appears in the Kenobi show somehow. I think it was a mistake to end his arc in Rebels when they were planning other live action material.
     
  18. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2019
    It is a shame that Rebels already made Maul unusable. I wonder if the idea to use Vader came up because maul was off the table.


    Plus it would of allowed them to save a Vader appearance instead of announcing it way ahead of time.
     
  19. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Maul wouldn't be off the table. Rebels was about 3 years before ANH when Kenobi dispatched Maul. This series is roughly 9 years prior to ANH. This is close in time to when Solo took place.
     
  20. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 24, 2019
    Isn’t he though? Rebels already told the one post ROTS Mail & Obiwan story worth telling. There’s nothing else there.

    At least Vader & Obi-Wan have some material to work that could enhance theirs.
     
  21. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    I was just making the point that he is still alive at the time this show is supposed to take place.
     
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  22. Darth_Bertie

    Darth_Bertie Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2014
    If I had to guess I would say after the Kenobi mini-series we will see either a Vader mini-series or a proper Vader TV Show in the likes of Mando and Ahsoka.

    And Hayden will play Vader in both.
     
  23. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    In a world where they can have Obi-Wan and Vader meet again between ANH and ROTS then another meeting between Obi-Wan and Maul is hardly a problem.

    Timeline wise this series is lined up around the end of the Solo movie. At that point Maul is the head of Crimson Dawn. His next appearance is 6-7 years later where he's stranded on Malachor.

    There is nothing to say that Obi-Wan wasn't the one to strand him there in the first place deposing him from his criminal empire.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  24. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    I actually imagined that Maul got too powerful in Crimson Dawn (or was betrayed) and that made the Empire notice him. It would explain Maul knowing about the Inquisitors, feeling that he couldn´t defeat Vader alone, and being stranded on Malachor instead of still ruling Crimson Dawn. The Inquisitors also said that Maul being alive in this era was only a rumor, so I imagine something happened to asume such a powerful Force user dead... Vader being that something makes perfect sense, in universe.

    In the end, its all about the story first, at least for me. This isn't Mortal Kombat. We are not meant to aim for fight after fight after fight to define which character is stronger. There are many ways to be strong, and there are many ways of confronting an enemy that doesn't involve fighting him/her directly. Reminds me of something a Star Wars vendor told be back in the days of SOTE, when I asked about that green guy that was featured against Vader in a double pack. He went on to tell me "its Prince Xizor. He fights Vader and absolutely destroys him". Perhaps he tought he was ensuring a sale, but I ended up disliking overpowered Xizor up until I read the novel, and found out that he smart enough to fight Vader in a political arena, rather than an actual one.

    I say this because, all things considered, I´m not convinced as of yet that we are actually getting a fight between Vader and Kenobi in this series. I´ll approach it open minded and interested, since I've liked Deborah Chow´s work so much up to this point, but I´m still thinking this series can be an entirely different kind of duel between the two...
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  25. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    In the case of Obi-Wan, if you include Anakin/Vader into his story, whether once or on a continual basis, it stops being about Obi-Wan and his journey in life that eventually leads him back to his inevitable "reunion" with Vader, and becomes about Anakin/Vader and how Obi-Wan affected him. It shrinks the galaxy because it all keeps coming back to Anakin/Vader. Instead of giving us a look into the people and events that shaped Obi-Wan's change from seeing Anakin as his friend to Vader as his enemy, it turns into Vader is what shapes these views. It invalidates any other meaningful personal interactions or events for Obi-Wan and turns it into Anakin/Vader as not only the only one who shapes these views, but the only one capable of shaping Obi-Wan's views. Obi-Wan communing with Qui-Gon turns into a plot device of how he learned to become a force ghost, instead of being about having a confidant to console in as well as learn from. Same goes with Yoda. And communication through the force becomes meaningless as the only thing shown to influence Obi-Wan is his relationship with Anakin. When those interactions stop carrying any weight for the character, and it draws back to one central figure, it shrinks the feel of the galaxy because it puts the importance on the once central figure instead of the main character.

    Now don't get me wrong, Obi-Wan's relationship with Anakin is a huge part of things. I don't mean to invalidate that, but we're at a point in Obi-Wan's life where he's moved past their friendship, or at least attempting to.

    Sorry for the delay in replying. I meant to the other day, but got sidetracked.
     
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