Fanclub Dathomir Fan Club - from kwa to witches!

Also even though it may be too ancient to be relevant to current above topics:

Dawn of the Jedi shows a Tho Yor taking a primitive human shaman culture from Dathomir to Tython. The culture dresses akin to later witches and we see males and females both as well as Rancors.

A sizeable portion must be exported by the Tho Yor given millennia later on Tython, subcultures of all the collected species and cultures still survived wearing dathomiri style amongst others. What became of them, and their assimilation into the forming Jedi Order gradually may have eroded the last Dathomiri bits. Even Rancors turned via alchemy into flying beats back then were no lasting thing.

How did the humans get to Dathomir? Back then Kwa already had turned into Kwi and yet their tech, holocrons and gates remained on Dathomir as on Tython.

We know Rakata spread humanity around a lot. But before that, did the Kwa spread humanity? Why did they need/import humans to Dathomir? Why and how did humans survive whatever happened to the Kwa when they downgraded themselves into Kwi, along other ancient races (Sharu etc.) downgrading themselves to evade danger.

Where did the humans that got taken to Dathomir originate from? Why did they live shamanic? Because Kwa taught them that? Or because of their original home?

Also, did Dathomir only become matriarchic with Allya and her daughters? Paecian Empire and Sith Academy both do not seem to be genderspecific to me. And the Paecian prison colony also sounds more for a dump for dangerous males.

Pre-Paecian Dathomir might have a minor human shamanic population and gender equality. Paecians though dropped criminals aplenty and given male tendencies for agression, the female population of Dathomir was was faced with an overabundance of violent males. Something shaman cultures revering "Mother" nature and inheriting their culture from matriarchic Kwa and living along matriachic Rancors would not welcome. But criminals might have forced their domninion over the retreating clans. Cue the arrival of the Sith and foundation of an Academy. The planets raw nature and strife was perfect for the dark side, and the local conflict escalated quickly. Maybe the Sith thought to use the special ichor-esque qualities of Dathomir, but the locals pushed back until some corrupted spilled Dathomirs secrets to the Sith and Sith Alchemy leaped considerably forward by new discoveries. But with the end of the Sith, another major event must have hit Dathomir we do know nothing about yet:

The end of the Sith Academy and Sith presence by arrival of Jedi armies on Dathomir! I bet they cleansed the entire world in a massive battle before moving on. Few survivors reorganized stranded once more. But given surviving alchemically enhanced animals and such, the planet was closed to spacetravel and locked off, maybe used as prison dump once more. If so, overabdundance of male prisoners may once more lead to a situation that later Allya fought back against and why matriarchy rose again thx to the rise of the witches.


Now on Allya herself, as a Jedi she did not need chants. She probably learned chants from locals and in return taught them to use the Force but down the line chants prevailed and Allyas way mixed with the local shamanism. Why else would Allya not show them how to do it as she did it as a Jedi before?

 

I think there's a line in COPL about how the witches need to do chants and motions because it helps them visualize or manifest what they're doing with the Force. It's basically their cultural method of strengthening the connection, and this is part of why they find the male Jai who have visited the planet on occasion so impressive. Maybe Allya figured combining the local cultural practice with her own teachings would make said teachings more familiar or persuasive?

 

Add to that the planets ichor and specialty which may require the chants and goes beyond just Force use. Said magick is said to weaken the farther witches are away from their planet. (An out of universe way to have them not rival the Sith or be too overpowered that was implemented by some guide but i forgot which it was?) But they also use the Force and that does not diminish with distance. In the end, every magick and witchcraft is born from the Force, so whatever is special about Dathomir or the ichor only may be what is talked about there.

Sitenote: A different world with a very similiar ichor and green mist is Anzat. Yet here no Forcecult uses it for some alchemy. Instead Anzati believe it contains all souls of those that have passed away (akin to the Force in other cultures). The Soup as the mist there is also called, may be related to Dathomiri ichor? Anzati believe this soup to be a beings soul, residing within the body, which they can drink via their proboscii. But for those not drunken, or for fellow Anzati, upon death they join the soup-ichor of their homeworld.

 

My comment to the text on the page:
First section: do people think the text is using 'ichor' wrong or do they imply that a god or similar have died or is captured and bleeding on Dathomir?

Third section: How is that different from the Sith?

Forth Section: how do that help them "avoid falling into the passion and rage that plague the Sith"? Also, what we have seen of the NIghtsisters do they have just as large, if not bigger, rage and passion problem as the Sith.

Fifth section: FFG's Nightsisters seems to be fully based on the TCW incarnation and I have to admit that I have not seen all the Nightsister episodes but in the ones I have seen have I not seen this individualism mentioned here.

Seventh section: maybe I have misunderstood but to me one of the things that differ the Sith from other dark side groups is that they are capable of using their passion and rage as a fuel without it overtaking them (usually).

Where was it established that the kwa was matriarchic? Because I have not heard about it outside of this thread.

The Sith was on Dathomir before the Paecian Empire used it as a penal-world.

Or maybe the Siths on Dathomir had already moved on when the Brotherhood of Darkness summoned all for the big fight.

Or there was only a handful of Siths in the Academy, who took all their knowledge and put everything they could not take to the flame before feeling.

Or her students or students' students found the chants n' gesticulation worked as crutch for them and they passed on this. Luke commented that Allya could not have had enough time to fully teach her daughters the full understanding of the Force.

Dawn of the Jedi is a charley foxtrot marathon dance on continuity.

My impression of CoPL so was pre-Allya Dathomir not really organised, just bands of survivors constantly on the run from all the natural dangers of Dathmoir. So I guess that the matriarchic tradition would have begun after Allya, if not with her.

As presented in CoPL so was Pre-Paecian Dathomir uninhabited.

 

I see no evidence of a bleeding or dead god??? Ichor just means green mist and that some arcane stuff is attributed to it, with the rest to the Force while all is the Force kinda. See ichor paralells to Anzatis soup mists on Anzat.

What is typical for Sith and what is not is everyones own interpretation. But Sith arn't all alike when it comes to passions. Some celebrate emotions as empowering, others shun them like the Jedi did. Only readers deal in absolutes

The page reads as if they had to cut legends stuff but some remained, leading to the confusing wording. What they kept from Legends seems to be Book of Sith based only, namely Allya and few other bits.

Authorial intent may have been to have the Witches not as dark as Sith even when Nightsisters and enforce an invisible scale on which they are placed. But that is whacky and only different words for Nightsisters are less extremist on the scale and more natural in their darkness and shamanism. A part of strife and ecosystem instead of trying to change the rules as Sith do.

Guidebooks I think, but I can't recall the source from top of my head.

Source for this? Was Dathomir mentioned or used in TOR MMO?

If the Sith all left for the big battle, I am intrigued how a fully stocked Sith Alchemy academy remained behind untouched... ready for locals to plunder and learn from long before Allya.

Uninhabited? Quote please for proof. That would mean the Tho Yor took them all and still a similiar culture as before developed on the world later. Interesting! That would give credence that part of said culture is influenced by constants on the planet that despite depopulation and prisoner dumps never changed, like Kwa/Kwi influence or else.

 

CoPL actually say that the oldest daughter was 16 seasons, not years, that most likely mean that she was 4 Dathomirian years old.

Ichor is the ethereal fluid that is the blood of the gods and/or immortals.

Not really. We are talking about the movie era here and that means Sideous, Maul and Tyranus are our typical Sith. And we know that the Sith have been able to hide for a thousand of years so that means that they have been able to keep their rage, passions and similar in check since they have not been revealed.

Fully agree.

Seems so.

My mistake, I thought the Paecian Empire was younger than it was, I take back my statement.

It's mentioned but only as the home planet of rancors, to my knowledge.

Not so much likely. Since they Sith probably took anything of real use with them.

They don't say it outright but in Teneniel description of their early history (will quote the whole thing later as example of how Dathomirs history was first presented) is there no mention of any earlier people before the prisoners and that their decedents "they lived like beasts, and were nearly hunted to extinction", indicating that there was nobody there to teach them how to survive on the planet.

Likley RL explanation: DotJ creators/editors did not really research/think about the planets they used or what had been established about the Jedi's origin in earlier materials (f.ex. did the Phantom Menace novelization say that the Jedi begun as a meditative introvert order that decided that they could do much more good by being a worldly one)

Giving people who do care about that kind of stuff migraines.

 

@Thrawn McEwok commented that map in the The genealogy of the Skywalker-Solo clan thread, here is what he said:

 

I doubt that fits, Dathomir seasons may not equal Earths. Maybe there are less? Or Seasons refers to not what we mean with seasons. IF true and she died with oldest kid 4, she could not have had too many daughters at all, nor influenced them that much. Witch culture must have stemmed from local natives then and not been influenced by Allya much if at all, unless she trained unrelated ladies that took care of her too young kids afterwards. But I go with 16 seasons = years. Think chinese zodiac with year of the ___ insert animal name ___ may be refered to as a season of the ___ . not weather seasons.

 

They don't. A dathomirian year is longer so the seasons, or at least some of them, should also be.

probably. But if she gave birth to multiple children many times could she be up in some numbers.

Luke commented that her children was to young to truly understand her teachings.

or, more likely if you ask me, from the 600 years of post-Allya history.

 

Quick question related to TCW:

Mother Talzin headed and used the Fangrawn cult in episodes for a ritual until thwarted by JarJar Binks and Mace Windu. Did she just coopt the cult for her purposes, did the cult start aroudn her originally and belong to her? When did it get founded then? Are there other related witchcults or offshoots of Dathomiri culture on other worlds?

 

Regarding the numbers of clans on Dathomir so do Augwynne say, in CoPL, "There are a dozen other clans in the mountains, but even the nearest is a four-day march", Chapter 16, and then later in Chapter 27 it's written "Han gathered sisters from all nine of Dathomir's clans for a feast the following evening". I have not read through enough of CoPL to know if that's just the author forgetting the numbers they gave earlier and the editor missing it or do they really imply that three whole clans have been destroyed?

Most likley it's the former since I don't rember any other clan beside the Sinigin Mountan to be involved in the end fight, and even if I'm wrong so is it unlikley that, beside the Singing Mountain clan's fighter, three whole clans was involved and killed of to a member, non-fighers included.

A possibility, if we believe that the different numbers are because of a mistake, could be that the nine clans gathered in Chapter 27 for the great victory feast are all the 'high clans', 'great clans' or similar - the clans that uncontradictable can trace their linage to Allya (by blood or teaching) and/or the ones with greatest political power.

And if we say that the nine clans in Chapter 27 are not all clans do that open for there to be many more clans since Augwynne only say "There are a dozen other clans in the mountains" and that could imply that there are other clans outside of the mountains, possibly many other clans.

In The Wildlife of Star Wars: A Field Guide we see a Dathomirian witch, of the Charal school of dress, with a horse:


And that don't look like a mountain breed to me (a horse expert I know tells me it's based on the Friesian horse breed, which is also the breed of the horse Charal rides in Ewoks: The Battle for Endor) so which points toward there being at lest one clan of horse using witches from the lowlands. Maybe Charal is from that group, that could explain why she dresses differently from any of the other Witches of Dathomir groups we know of.

On the other hand so did @Thrawn McEwok suggest: "In terms of the text, this is simply an inconsistency. Now, I have no idea whether or not the inconsistency is deliberate, but (given the carefulness of Wolverton's worldbuilding, I certainly won't rule out the possibility, and) if we take the inconsistency seriously, the distinction is between a formal gathering of nine clans and a practical reference to around twelve groups. Perhaps I was a little quick to spell out my inference (i.e., there are three or four groups that can be considered clans for practical purposes but which formally represent subgroups of the main nine) but I think I put everything on the table in terms of the fact that I was extrapolating from an inconsistency."

 

She might have brought a few horses along with her when she joined the Sanyassan Marauders - hence them being available for her use on Endor.

 

Or maybe she fleshcrafted her space-Friesian out of one of the Sanyassan's space-mustangs because she want her mount to look/feel familiar

 

Or hers falls within the bounds of variation that the Sanyassan ones had - basically all she did was pick out one that happened to look right.

 

On fleshcrafting and shapeshifting:

Many shapeshifting species are restricted to change simply skincolor or if changing shape they have to keep it within the range of their bodymass and cannot perform shifting into tiny or huge creatures which would be a stretch too far. Only the most experienced managed that though at expenses that made the shifting less convincing if they have to actually move or act in that shape.

Yet we know of Clawdite and Shiido that are on a level where they can shift into nearly anything regardless of size or composition which is near impossible. Even with Force-enhanced or species based natural illusion and mind control powers to make illusions and shifting more believeable, its unrivaled in skill.

The Witches/Nightsisters and their talismans though even go beyond that level. Compressing a human into raven form?

Only explanation that works here is, luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. All matter is an illusion and what form one takes is limited by the power of your believe and limited by your doubts and learned limitations.

Maybe the Witches draw additional energy and matter needed from the ichor and mists to enlarge themselves when shapeshifting, and likewise release not needed energy and mass back to this natural aether when shifting into smaller shapes. Maybe some species learned how to do this naturally, and this is the Shiido and Clawdite master level's secret?

Talismans are like chants, simply tokens they use for it is easier to believe in a token than your own abilities for some.



Next post will spoil the latest FFG Collapse of the Republic, brace for stuff to discuss!

 

More Collapse of the Republic intel: If I put something in "" it is a direct quote from the book!

Dathomir has humans, Zabrak, but the majority are Dathomirians, an all female near-human species with pale white, blue or gray skin. Hair can be any color of the rainbow.

"Dathomirians have multiple stories about their origins - all contradictory. One commonly told story claims the Jedi Council exiled a woman named Allya, who trained the women of Dathomir in the Force. The Council has no such record. At least one band of exiles survived on the vibrant yet violent planet. These proto-Dathomirians continued to explpre the Force, applying their discoveries toward practical uses, creating the alchemy, magicks and weapons they now employ.
Over generations since, these people - who began calling themselves Nightsisters - bonded with the human and Zabrak criminals exiled (...). They remained a matrilineal and female-only society; the male humans and Zabrak are never invited to join their clans. "

Few rejected the nightsister ways and magicks and live as hermits. Should they intend to return to the clans they only need to proof "her lineage through a genetic test, via a magickal ritual, or by revaling secret Nightsister knowledge. Once a Nightsister, always a Nightsister."

Dathomirians are divided by clans lead by a Mother who passes down her wisdom orally or in written form. "Dathomiri society contains quite a number of texts by thee Mothers (plural!), somtimes based on specific theme of wisdom , using shadows, light, law or other metaphors to teach their lessons. The tomes blend history, spirituality, local knowledge, folklore and insight."

"Some of the Nightsisters wisdowm has come from their exploration of the many ancient ruins scattered across the planet." (a reference without mention to the Kwa?)

"Most Nightsisters believe Dathomir hosted at least one empire in the ancient past, though this is unverified." (Kwa Empire? Paecian Empire? Dathomiri-Sith Empire during New Sith Wars era?)

Dathomiri and Nightbrothers have repurposed some of the ancient ruins to their own use, turning them into temples with stone facades depicting revered Nightsisters and Zabrak. (proof that the locations we saw in TCW are of Kwa origin???)

Dathomiri language, they speak a basic dialect mixed with criminal slang from across the galaxy (due to the exiles) and they also speak a language called Paecian, extracted from the ruins of Dathomir. (proof the above ruin mentions are Paecian and not Kwa?). Dathomiri language mixes Paecian, Basic and Criminal Slang words.

Also the book confirms further that Mother Talzin sent sisters away to earn credits, gather intelligence in the galaxy at large. Over time, more and more Nightsisters banded together under her, so she leads not just her own clan but all Nightsisters at some point in the Clone Wars.

 

more stuff from the book:

-"Nightsisters transform their own blood via rituals into pure ichor bestowing an unnatural Forcesensitivity."
-"They can create powerful items from raw ichor, grant a physical being gifts, and even raise the dead."

This reinforces my comparison between the ichor mists to the Anzati's Soulsoup of Anzat where the dead are supposed to reside, join up with.

So is this ichor maybe a perversion of the Force? The Force is life, creates and permeates it and life returns to it after death. But what if the return is prevented and instead channelled into the ichor-y mists like on Anzat and Dathomir? That would mean, the Force is weakened and the power within these mists is power stolen from the dead that were not allowed to rejoin the Force. Necromancy at its best, which makes sense then that Nightsisters can raise the dead with it or transform it into objects, as Jedi and Forceusers can not do given they do not steal from the Force its lifeenergy forcibly.

If my assumption is true, nightsisters transforming their blood, the essence of life so to speak into ichor while alive, connects them even more so to the mists, empowering them, as well as granting them a status between life and death.. as Mother Talzin several times employed before her final death.

With all Nightsisters dead now after the massacre of the Clone Wars... the mists must be more powerful than ever before given the fresh input they got. Waiting to be tapped, either by Maul making his Crimson Dawn base on Dathomir, or later on Ghezerion and others.



Headcanon sidethought: Dathomir is red, Ichor is green... the more ichor, the greener Dathomir becomes? As in Legends post ROTJ? Maybe? Was TCW Dathomir red because the nightsister rise and heavy use of it depleted the green? And yub... Soylent Green is people! Another paralell that fits here!


Edit Add on:

Quote: "Spirits linger in ways not cmmonly noticed elsewhere."

Another hint at the above conjecture I postulated?

Mother Talzin has sold for decades her empowered sons and daughters offworld to the criminal elite as bodyguards and agents.

So... maybe we can connect Mighella to her now.

 

Wonder why they decided to outright state that the Jedi order have no records of Allya. Also, was it not Luke who proclaimed that Allya was a Jedi, not any dathomirian, in CoPL?

To bad we have not really seen anything of that outside of CoPL.

I feel a perfect origin for the PC:s, or the bad guy!

Still want to know if they are using 'ichor' right or not.

That's a possibility.

It could also mean that the Nightsisters are only really powerful while on Dathomir, when they leave the planet they leave the mist and can no longer draw upon it to get a power boost. Making them very powerful on their home turf but not that powerful when off planet (with some personally powerful individuals as the exception).

Or until it's explained in canon that some survived, or the GM decide that it's not so.

That's a possebility

 

Have to check but I think yes it was Luke. But Luke by that time went by older records of the ancient Jedi Order, not PT order which he had not much surviving data on. So I am curious, is Allya and her exile actually way older than previously assumed? Might dating be wrong with centuries meaning millennia maybe? Of course that'd work for Dathomir, but throw a wrench into a lot of other ages and dating. Especially the genalogy thread.

That is actually what Leland once stated in Insider I think when retconning/explaining the differences between TCW and EU Dathomir. To not overpower the witches, their power decreases with distance from their homeworld unlike, as you yourself noted, individual beings are strong in the Force. So yub this is canon already. Makes me wonder though, what of other similiar mists on other worlds? Can those empower them likewise or only their own? What on Anzat, or others potentially?

 

I think I found a solution to the exile of Allya and the Jedi not keeping records of it.

To the Jedi, Allya was never officially exiled, but de facto considered dead. In fact though she survived nearcertain death and stranded on Dathomir, considering this an exile ever since. Whatever conflict between her and the Jedi occured previously, potentially ended within Dathomir's system. Her ship was shot down by the Jedi who pursued her. But would it have simply crashed on Dathomir the Jedi would have gone to investigate if she survived. So instead, I propose a more extreme maneuver: Allya pointed her ship towards the sun in order to escape her pursuers and have them rely on instruments and Force only instead of blinded sight. But guided by the Force they caught up nevertheless and shot her ship down. Unable to tractor her, to them it looked like her ship would be swallowed by the sun, reporting her death to the Council. In fact though, the ship barely escaped that fate and entered a slingshot maneuver around the sun, using its gravity to pull it around and push it back out towards Dathomir, where the ship crashed beyond repair stranding/exiling Allya. Only centuries later when the Chu'untor crashed on Dathomir would the Jedi investigating the crash learn of Allya's survival and fate by her legacy among the witch clans.

 

If as hinted at and previously assumed the witches draw power from the mists and green in addition to the Force, what keeps them from harvesting the mists and transporting them offworld when they leave to empower other places they need? Or is there a ritual that allows them to create such mist in other places via sacrifices and massacres?

 

Maybe it degenerate (or if they are using ichor right: coagulate) when moved away from Dathomir? Meaning it can only be useful for a short time if taken offworld.

 

A possible follow up on this could be that they can keep the ichor fresh by keeping it in special containers. Containers that need time and special materials (and possibly a magic ritual) to be created.

If this is possible so can I see the creation of those containers taking up some time for the Nightsister since they need to gather material and/or technological part (some which may not exist on Dathomir) for them. And the Nightsisters don't strike me as the kind of people that do menial tasks if they can get others to do it so they most likely raid or trade (or use slaves) to gather the material - it's possible that some of those sisters Mother Talzin sent away in the galaxy at large was out there to gather martial for ichor-containers.

 

makes sense, given Witch Talismans seem to work independent from Ichor or Dathomir as well as on it (Charals Ring, Savage's Force compass, etc.) are they ichor made physical or do they contain a tiny compartment of ichor within?

Also Talzins ritual offworld with the Fangrawn cult that could rip souls from bodies via ancient templeinstallation and sunpower through a configuration of lenses reminds me of this. Did she collect souls for... what? Ichor creation? Empowering herself?

PS: Over the top, rebuild the same device as a mobile battle station akin to the Death Star and you got a giant Space-lens that can, if positioned between sun and planet, rip-harvest the souls of an entire worlds population in one go turning them to pure ichor-scapes. Heck... what if ancient wars turned entire systems to ichor and some of the more obscure and arcane space nebulae are de facto just ichor floating free in space? Alphabet Squadron talked about a mysterious cluster that is like a dead/living god and has special qualities... another scene elsewhere even had space mist that can show you the past.. like apparitions and flying Dutchman-esque spacecraft ghosts that passed through before.

 

If we go by the rules for WotC's Force using classes so can some Force users groups (a.k.a. all with levels in the Force Adept, Dark Side Devotee, and Telepath Class/Prestige Class) create Force items, either a focus or a "Force battery".

Regarding Force artefacts overall so did I make a fanon post about it some years ago: