main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Dawn of Defiance Episode IV and Darth Rivan: Retcons (DoD Ep IV spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth , Apr 3, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Yeah, that works. I think she was discussing Sith holocrons at some point, but the book is at home so I can't check if I'm right.


    He quite probably did reclaim lost territory, though... I'm unsure as to whether it was "a lot" or simply "more than anyone else ever did".

    As a quick aside, I've always assumed that the "Greatest Sith Empire Ever" (if we don't count the Galactic Empire, which doesn't really have the same feel) collapsed due to infighting. Mainly because Kas'im still refers to the Battle of the Star Forge as the Sith Order's "greatest defeat".

    And how I hope we hear about that Dark Lord... and how I hope it's a Sith Empress. (Preferably the sith miraluka fanart, if you remember my praising of that... but I think that's unlikely)

    Yeah, that makes sense.

    The Republic, as of PoD, may simply not have a huge concern with reclaiming the Outer Rim (focusing on rebuilding its strength in the Core and Mid Rim), which would explain why they weren't "officially" at war with the Sith, but rather engaged in a series of "protracted military engagements".
     
  2. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    I haven't had a chance to read through the whole adventure yet, but I did catch something in my quick scan of it:

    Wonderful to see the resemblance of the Noghri to Vader's mask explicitly referenced, after Zahn was not allowed to back when originally writing The Thrawn Trilogy.

    Smarter man than me . . . I *skipped* an Epistemology exam while waiting in line. I think I got about the same grade on that test that I would've gotten had I been there, though. That class and I did not get along.
     
  3. JMM

    JMM Author: The Forgotten War, SW Fact File star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    Interesting that this sounds a lot like something we've seen in the last couple of Harry Potter books. Part of a person's soul attached to objects.

    I must admit, I didn't know of Reddjak, so one of my other geeky sides surfaced and I thought this was an old Star Trek reference. But now I find it more interesting that we have a pirate named Reddjak and a pirate named Crimson Jack.

    I'll admit that I'm no RPGer, but sourcebooks and material always interest me, especially bits of retconning and obscurity. Nice work Mr. Pena and Mr. Boivin!

    (The secret SWFA conspiracy continues...)
     
  4. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    I think that "taking a step" back can be a fairly nebulous concept in continuity. At best I would say this is a "soft retcon," given that it's given via an in-universe POV. By contrast, a "hard retcon" might be more along the lines of an omniscient third-person narrator stating, "Contrary to popular belief [i.e. anything you might've read prior to this book], blah blah blah..."

    Thanks, Pumaman.

    A fun little homage, yes.

    It's been brought to my attention that the maalraas would've been a far, far better choice. You can't win em all (hence the "no one really knows" safety net).

    Also, in case it wasn't clear, Draco probably learned the location of the Qornah holocron during his interrogation of Ventor (who was a former Almas Academy student). Ventor likely "said nothing" about the Jedi survivors during this part of the torture session, but his mind was probably starting to cave when he gave up this holocron tidbit.

    At the time we turned in the adventure, that illustration of Valin Draco had not yet been released. Maybe he's just got some make up on his scars in that illo.

    Pending approval, you'll likely see this addressed in a future product.

    I suppose it is the first explicit reference in writing. Some of the recent visual interpretations of Noghri have left little to the imagination.

     
  5. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Indeed.

    It was one of the few things I wasn't fond of in the EGttF but, of course, there is the out of it being IU.

    :D

    I'm a bit of a holocron fan. I'm still gutted that they made no appearance in the movies. :_|
     
  6. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Interesting point. I'm taking this as a personality transfer, so to speak. I recall that the Rakatan computer on Kashyyyk in KotoR was programmed to recognise Revan's mental parameters as a Sith Lord, and I presume a Holocron could thus be able to replicate this and attach a hologram to it equally. A particularly sophisticated program could learn, and appear to 'be' a person - out of all practicality, it's Rivan.

    I imagine, considering Rivan's unorthodox nature as a Sith Lord - battlelords, terraforming worlds with grass, turbolaser proof fortresses - he would be beyond the Ruin Creed.

    Abel, there's a reference, I believe in a WotC article, to Rivan being betrayed by his apprentice, ah, yes, [link=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/livingforce/lf20050901sithbattlelords]here[/link]...

    Darth Rivan did perfect the process but was betrayed by his apprentice before being able to create sufficient battlelords to build an army. The process is painful and involved, and there is no guarantee that an individual who seeks to become a battlelord will actually survive the ritual.

    Is this still canon? Considering the Darkstaff itself sabotaged Rivan, are we to take that Malus made some kind of deal with the Darkstaff, or simply this has been dropped?
     
  7. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    Speaking of holocrons, I liked the subtle retcon regarding the run-of-the-mill holocrons found in Shadow Hunter and Cloak of Deception. Though Luceno made a stab in this direction, it's nice to see the label explained as advertising hyperbole. :D

    TC
     
  8. Jerba_Bantha

    Jerba_Bantha - SWRPG Designer -Former RPG Staff VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2001
    Everything is still canon. Rivan's apprentice Darsin betrayed him, Rivan was chased off Almas by Jedi and was killed at Ruusan. Meanwhile, Darsin died in the Sith Fortress and also became a spirit (which the players encounter in the adventure "A Mon Alone").

    And please remember Darsin never became Darth Malus! They only state that name because that's probably the name he wanted to give himself, but he never became a Sith Lord. There could have been an actual Darth Malus afterwards, someone else taking that name, for all I know. But Darsin was never known as Darth Malus! If this gets misunderstood and printed in Wookieepedia or soemthing it might become a big flub and then be impossible to retcon ;0 Maybe this should be Drew Karpyshyn's next book.....

    I highly recommend reading "A Mon Alone" to find out everything about Darsin and Rivan's experiments the Battlelords.
     
  9. BuccGuardian

    BuccGuardian Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2002

    Gah, I stand corrected. It's been too long...

    I knew I had the Rivan name before Revan came out in KOTOR. I remembered using it, just not where it had come from.

    My apologies, and no slight meant to Mr. Wiese.
     
  10. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Right, and I considered using Crimson Jack instead (Red Fury Brotherhood, after all), but decided against it because Reddjak has had less screen time.

    Thanks James!

    JF's right, these "betrayals" aren't mutually exclusively. Rivan is still betrayed by Darsin and then the Darkstaff episode occurs.

    Thanks. Just a little bandaid for that one. The original introduction of the Holocron in Dark Empire was such a magic moment in Star Wars, I wanted to keep the concept from getting too unnecessarily watered down.

    I must say, it's not an entirely improbable scenario. Wookieepedia has become quite a powerful influence in the Star Wars community.

    Incidentally, something I've been asked about away from these boards: Jacen and the Stalfonauts. These skeleton warriors were written to be the same type of "Guardian Spirits" as seen in the Tales of the Jedi comics and the Dark Side Sourcebook. For some reason, the editors decided to change these guys from a purely supernatural angle (as in their original sources) to parasitically-controlled creatures. Not sure why, but these things happen.
     
  11. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Flamboyant mustache and open shirt or lumberjack beard and space speedo . . . a difficult choice for sure.[face_laugh]
     
  12. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    It's possible the "Guardian Spirits" are somehow related to the corpse-reanimating worms seen in [link=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gathering_Shadows]Gathering Shadows[/link]... [face_thinking]
     
  13. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    Yes. My He-Man nostalgia almost got the better of me, but alas, I resisted.

    BTW, James I just realized that the Star Trek reference you might've been referring to regarding Reddjak was the "blow you out of the stars" portion of his dialogue, which actually was an ST reference. It was my best recollection of what Chang said to Kirk in Star Trek VI. What a cool villain.

    Looks pretty reasonable to me.

    Folks should also keep an eye out for some fun, indirect references to "Clone Dooku." (You can do a lot of damage in 43 pages).
     
  14. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    I knew that was intentional. :p
     
  15. JMM

    JMM Author: The Forgotten War, SW Fact File star 3 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 1998
    While I appreciate that Trek reference, I was thinking of a more specific one. The evil entity named "Redjac" from the old Trek episode where Scotty was accused of murder. Maybe that's where the Droids writer got the name. Oh, here's the character's listing in the other exhaustive geek wiki: [link=http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Redjac]Redjac[/link].

    How about a real unneccesary retcon? Reddjak and Crimson Jack? Same guy. While spending a few years in prison, Reddjak works out and bulks up, then once he's out he changes his identity, dyes his hair and resumes pirating. :) It's unnecessary, but it'd be kinda fun. But at the very least, maybe they can both be of the Red Fury Brotherhood. Maybe members come up with a red-themed nickname?
     
  16. The_Pumaman

    The_Pumaman Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Wow, sometimes the connection is just to obvious, isn't it? :)
    [image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/b/b2/Nighthunter.jpg]
    [image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/a/ad/NightHunter.jpg]
    They are essentially the same picture except for a change of color, tail-pose and dental structure :p

    Also seems like someone misnamed the maalraas picture :/ Nighthunter's first and Maalraas' second.
     
  17. Halagad_Ventor

    Halagad_Ventor Star Wars Author - SWRPG Designer star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2001
    The idea was to further the assimilation of the doppleganger and clone designations as Dan tried to do in New Essential Chronology and reduce the confusion to one of semantics (particularly in the k'kayeh dreambeast section).

    Wow, what are the chances of unintentionally making TWO Trek references in the same paragraph? I must've stepped into the Q continuum for a second.

    Naturally, I asked myself if Reddjak and Crimson could be the same guy, but as you pointed out, it's just too messy. I concede that Crimson Jack might've been a Red Fury pirate (though two "red" "Jacks" in the same outfit does start to acquire that excessively campy quality).

    Exactly.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.