DC Universe Fallout / LucasFilm Changes

I was directed to ask my question over here. Surprise, in my 23 years, I have never posted here. I feel like a newbie now, posting this here. Forgive my old man confusion if this question has already been asked in one of the existing threads here. In my defense, I did look.

So, here we go.....

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I have a serious corporate media question for those of you who know vastly more than me on the subject. And no, this is not a Kathleen Kennedy hit piece, just an honest (logical) question. I will provide the background that I understand there was some type of legal agreement in place when Lucas sold that the PT, OT, and Clone Wars series essentially could not be touched and had to be maintained as such. At least that is what I remember.

So, if you have heard, the entire DC Universe is being flushed down the toilet. Wiped from canon, even AQ3 (release Winter 2023) and Blue Beetle will essentially be odd movies that will no longer have any meaning. Just pointless, useless cash grabs with no functional greater story purpose. Wonder Woman 3 has been canceled and reports out of trusted Hollywood trades are saying even DC Universe casting will be wiped and retooled, no returning faces. Even the new head of DC Films James Gunn has confirmed the wipe of the DC Universe in a social media Tweet after the news hit. Only the newest Batman movie and Joker will remain untouched (and possibly Peace Maker), since all three of those projects essentially function outside of the old regime DC storyline.

So the question becomes, since a multi-billion dollar media company is wiping the last decade of content and making it non-canon (and risking the ire of fans and loss of millions, if not billions in profit long-term), what is truly stopping Disney from doing the same with LucasFilm?

With Kathleen's rumored exit sometime around May 2023 after Indy 5 releases, will the new Disney regime hit the reset button and wipe the ST? Probably keep Rogue One and Solo** and the TV series that have all preformed reasonable well, but wipe the last 3rd trilogy of the Skywalker Saga?

**Yes, I know, Solo lost money. But it has since gained appreciation from both movie critic professionals and many fans who see it outside of the crazy times of TLJ and its horrible release window between Marvel movies at the time.

 

3 things:

1. They are different beasts.

Zack Snyder's Trilogy (aka the foundation/blueprint for the DCEU) was not well received critically and underperformed at the box office. Compared to, say, the TDK trilogy, it was not a "hit."

The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy was actually more critically acclaimed and financially successful than the SW Prequel Trilogy.

2. Public Perception

DC started with a hot hand (Dark Knight Trilogy) but failed when they tried to ape Marvel's plan. Shoe horning Batman into the Man of Steel sequel was a misstep. The movies/shows that grew out of this (Wonder Woman, WW84, Aquaman, Suicide Squad, etc.) have yielded mixed results at best. The sense amongst fans (and maybe more importantly the general public) is that DC films are a second fiddle.

The movies/shows that were a part of Kennedy's tenure have unequivocally been more successful, buzzed about, and positively viewed. Now, do fans piss and moan about things like Rian Johnson, Book of Boba Fett, K. Kennedy, etc? Absolutely. Yet, it's kind of par for the course for Lucasfilm. They pissed and moaned about George Lucas, the Special Edition changes, and the PT as well. The difference is, the general public is still generally positive about the Star Wars brand.

3. Shared Universe

DC films has (like comic books) have always been rebooting/remaking/reimagining the universe. There was NO concern about a shared cinematic universe until recently.

Christopher Reeve's Superman and Michael Keaton's Batman didn't actually exist in each others universe. Batman Forever, was a soft reboot of Burton's universe. Batman Begins might be the film that popularized the word "reboot." Point being, the DC universe was never a shared universe....and largely still is not. Thus, you can easily make a case for messing with the canon. It's a mess.

Star Wars has always been a shared cinematic universe. It's not very messy at all. Lucasfilm has gone to lengths to clean up and recategorize what is canon, and what's not. Why would you obscure that fall for the usual pissing and moaning by fans?

 

The main explanation to this is that a good number of the DC films they are rebooting underperformed at the box office. While this Star Wars trilogy that a certain section of the fandom wants so much to be rebooted averaged over a billion dollars a film (with each one of the three getting over a billion).

If the DC films were making that kind of cash they wouldn't be being rebooted. The answer isn't that complicated but at the same time it isn't an answer some fans of the previous six Star Wars films want to hear.


Lol and this thread really can't be taken seriously at all when the topic creator suggests keeping Solo but wiping out the ST.

 

@jaimestarr

Could it be argued that the PT aged better overall? With Clone Wars, I feel that the PT has received more praise and understanding as the years have gone by. It could be argued that without the Clone Wars, the PT would still be regarded as second rate. But all of the Special Edition and PT fans are now what the OT fans were during those late 90's and early 2000's, which I think has given the PT longer legs as now the older fans appreciate more what they saw as children and teenagers. I do not see the ST having those long legs with all of its issues. Yes, the PT had issues, but the ST had issues and in the era of social media & 24-hour news cycles, I think the fate of the ST is sealed. On the flipside of that, if the PT was released during the ST, I think the roles would be reversed. I am not a Johnson fan---far from it---but The Last Jedi will age well, much like TPM and ROTS. TLJ was a good film...maybe not a good Star Wars film, but it was a good professional movie. I do not see that same long-term critical acclaim or fan fondness with TFA and ROS.

With that said, the TV series' have so far been building to the First Order (clearly), but it has been interesting that none of the new properties set post-ROTJ (The Mandalorian, Book of Boba Fett) have directly come out and said as much more clearly in their storytelling. It feels like LucasFilm creatives are building towards that----want to keep that as the end goal---but it feels, honestly, like they are waiting for Kennedy to leave so they can do a timeline split much like Star Trek did in the 2009 reboot (although I recognize that was for legal and licensing reasons, not necessarily story reasons).

I would agree on both accounts. Dark Knight trilogy was the best Batman ever. Although they epically failed with the tease of Robin at the end...and then just left it. On the flipside, yes, the TV series have done well, as has Rogue One and Solo (retrospectively, it has gained a following...#Solo 2!!!).

The ST still feels out there. Distant. Not connected. All of LucasFilms' solid successes without much rioting has been movies, TV series, and games set before the ST. That is just hard fact. Money talks like you mentioned with the box office....but it is clear that the backlash spoke more by the direction LucasFilm has taken since the ST concluded.

 

The PT has growing appreciation after
a) some people eventually grew tired of whining about them after 20 years, and those who complain tend to be the loudest voices
b) the generation that grew up with them is now old enough to make their opinion heard

There is zero reason to make a final judgement on the future reception of the ST, when the shift in perception regarding the prequels didn't happen until quite recently. It also seems rather doubtful that a relatively minor animated show like The Clone Wars has much to do with that, as it is not something the large majority of the movie-audience have even watched. Just like with many of the complaints regarding all sorts of movies, people live in their bubbles. Just because someone's bubble has been busy watching an animated show, doesn't mean that public as a whole has. The show may have helped some people in liking the prequels more, but in the grand picture it just isn't particularly relevant. It's important enough to get a show for Ahsoka off the ground, but the audiences of the tv-shows still pale in comparison to every SW-movie, and it is not remotely close.

It also shouldn't be lost in all that, that for all the "love" the prequels may have gotten recently, its not like they are better rated by the audience then the sequels are. On the contrary.


I haven't seen anything in any of the material that suggests or even vaguely hints at the possibility of any creative thinking about "a timeline-split" or a retooling. That just reads like wishful thinking by those who want it to happen, not something that is actually there.
The tv-shows have referenced the ST on multiple occasions, and in matter that makes sense. Heck even Andor did, and that is a prequel-show. It's just that there is only so much of a connection you can do when you are still quite a bit away from them in the timeline. We have seen plenty of hints in the actions of the Imperial remnant, but that is not even the main storyline of The Mandalorian. Book of Boba Fett is a side-story to TM that focuses just on the character and Tatooine, largely irrelevant to anything beyond that. Kenobi was the first real callback to the PT outside of some elements on Rogue One. Andor then was a callback to Rogue One.

It also shouldn't be forgotten how long some of the stuff had been in the making. Kenobi was started years ago as a movie-project, and that's kind of true for Boba Fett as well. All that was already ongoing before TFA (Fett) and TLJ (Kenobi) were even out yet.

The idea that they are going to throw overboard a huge chunk of the franchise just because a (sizeable) minority dislike it, is just absurd. They won't be doing that. They didn't do that with the prequels, they aren't going to do it with the sequels. In part because that would be nonsensical in regard to the franchise as a whole, in part because it makes zero sense to throw the fans who actually like the material under the bus (and there is a ton of them) just to placate those who constantly attack Lucasfilm. There just is nothing to be gained by any of it.

 

Aged better than what? I think we need a few decades to see how the ST is viewed in hindsight. Certainly, I think the PT is looked upon more kindly than most folks in the late 90's early 00's would have anticipated.

I'm not so sure. The ST was largely bashed by fans within forums, reddit threads, and certain corners of social media. Generally, this didn't happen until the divisive Episode 8. On the other hand, The PT was widely lambasted almost immediately in the open by the mainstream media.

Besides gaining the ire of online fans, the PT was frequently (and unfairly) targeted/roasted by late night talk show hosts, SNL, sitcoms, etc. I just don't think the ST had to endure the walloping that the PT endured. The mainstream backlash to the PT was much more vicious and widespread in comparison. The hate spewed at the PT just felt bigger, meaner, and more visceral than what was thrown at the ST.

I think there will be a long term fondness for TFA. Say what you will, it was a generational event and there wasn't much bad talk about it at the time of it's release. Not compared to TPM anyway. Also, I think as time goes by, most casual viewers tend to lump these films together anyways.

I'm with you. I like Solo better than Rogue One. I think it captures Lucas's original space opera spirit/intent/tone much better than Rogue One. I dig Rogue One and Andor, but they are a bit dry for my SW tastes.

IMO the PT felt a bit disconnected to the OT until TCW filled in some of the gaps. I love ROTS, but the last 20 minutes still feel like a glorious mad dash rush to quickly connect the dots to the OT.

@Oissan
I agree with everything you've said here.

 

I think my main point is lost here. I was referencing DC's sudden moves with their movies. I am sure there is a sizeable element that dislike the DC's current films and like the current films. DC's new heads are essentially saying they do not care what the fans think of the properties, they are starting over. They have made that very clear. I am sad to see the first Wonder Woman being axed from canon.

The question was, will LucasFilm follow DC's direction with the ST? This is not about fans, this is about corporate media and making money and getting those stock options and bonuses for that corporate management and stake holders, not about us fans' feelings. They could, honestly, care less about us. The ST and Book of Boba Fett made that very clear, as did the complete wipe of the Expanded Universe. I think maybe David Filoni and Jon Favreau are the only exceptions to that.

 

The short answer to your comparison is that a superhero franchise is different to the SW franchise. Audiences are used to a reboot of those franchises with a new actor signalling a new continuity. They are not used to bits and pieces of a continuity being replaced with (presumably) films with the same actors (in the case of Ford and Hamill, I premise). It also sets a bad precedent - you can’t be redoing things because they didn’t land as you expected (especially when there is no guarantee that their second try would be any better).

It’s time for people to accept the ST and move on.

 

Exactly this.

 

Let's fast-forward to when the fourth trilogy is made and sections of the fan base call for that trilogy to be wiped from canon.

 

I want all of Star Wars to be wiped away.

ALL HAIL STAR TREK

 

No Star Trek shall get wiped too. Xenogears is the future.

 

SW isn't exactly the same as all those superhero / reboot-as-you-wish franchises, but I'd say it's now closer to being like them. It won't happen because this-or-that title made money? Well, another sequel trilogy and another canon would also likely make money. And looking years, decades, into the future, I can see the reboot-as-you-wish route being lucrative, not to mention lower-effort creatively.

SW canon has already been casually retconned, so what's to stop them from doing it again with their own works? If anything Disney would have a lot more freedom to do so with their own canon. So yeah, I could see it happening. Maybe not anytime soon, but eventually.

 

Yes another trilogy would make money. And it would make just as much money (and probably more) if it existed within the same universe as all the other Star Wars films.

They are not going to decanonize films that made that much money for them. Period. The best you can hope for is that they will make a trilogy that takes place far in the future or far back into the past that doesn't reference the ST.

 

the simple fact that kids love Rey , kylo ren, Finn and poe means they will never get rid of the ST

 

Exactly. We don't live in a world where fictional characters that kids dress up as get wiped out of canon because grumpy adults on the internet have trouble dealing with the fact that they didn't like something.

If adults want something like that to happen then they need to focus their attention on franchises that kids don't watch.

 

There's no point pretending to know the future; none of us knows what Disney will do. All we can do is guess.

Maybe the ST won't ever get de-canonized, but I think "it made money" is a poor reason to think so. Because again, making new canons can make money. Hell, Disney's done just that by creating the ST. You can't say that that's OK, but the thought of the same happening to the ST is not. Fans of the ST may not like the idea, but it's not impossible.They did it before, they can do it again.

 

The chances are extremely, extremely slim (add about ten more extremely's in there) and it's not going to happen as long as Disney owns Star Wars. Disney would likely be more prone to decanonize the prequels because they didn't make the prequels.

I really don't know why you all are so adamant about the idea of wiping some of these movies from canon when you are dealing with a canon and universe that spans thousands upon thousands of years. It would be more worth your energy to say that they will just tell stories so far removed in the timeline that they won't have anything to do with the ST.

 

I doubt Disney is allowed to make any alterations to the 1-6 saga, and the fandom would likely not take kindly to that at all. But the ST is Disney's own work, and they can mess with it if they want. More freedom there.

And, well, you're being awfully "adamant" to insist that it'll never happen. Again, you don't know what will happen. None of us do.

And I can only speak for myself, but I want the ST wiped away because I hate it and think it stains the rest of the saga and universe. I don't care about stories set in the far future or past. I imagine a lot of people who want the ST de-canonized feel the same. Which is my bias, just as it's bias to be a fan of the ST who never wants it to be wiped away. But I'm trying to make legit reasons why de-canonization could happen, not determining that it absolutely will.

 

And a lot of people feel the same way about the prequels. Infact the prequel hate wasn't just confined to fan forums like sequel hate largely is. Jabs were regularly taken at the prequels through regular fandom outlets such as tv talk shows and stand up comedians.

If you want to continue arguing this point your ideas might get a better reception if you talk in communities that are basically created to hate on the sequels.

 

Who cares that people hate the prequels? I'm not rambling about ST hate, I'm bringing up what I consider valid reasons for why I think de-canonization could happen. That's the topic. And if you don't care to reply to it, fine, but don't try changing the subject or redirecting someone to go to a place for haters because they disagree with you.

 

And most people here don't think your arguments are valid. And to be honest most here have tried to give valid points as to why they won't be de-canonized and all you say is 'you don't know what will happen in the future'

 

You don't speak for everyone. And I say you don't know what will happen because it's true, and because you keep saying it won't like it's a certainty. And no, that's not "all I'm saying". Try actually reading my posts.

Or don't, whatever. This is like talking to a wall and I think I'm done.

 

Good