PT Defending Anakin and the Tusken

One sided thinking + justification: I see a lot of that. It's sad. Take a lot of lives to potentially save a lot of lives - big win for the good guys, there.

 

Well said, VS. It's not logical in the least yet it happens a lot.

 

In the AOTC novel - a point is made of how what they do is a test of their enemies - "worthy" enemies survive for a long time, "weak" enemies die quickly.

No mention of rape here though. Not even vague allusions to it.

 

A rather bad example.
Firstly, lions are Obligate carnivores, meaning they must eat the flesh of other animals in order to survive. You can't make a lion live on grass and vegetables, their biology doesn't work like that.

Second, if you want an example of an animal whose behaviour has been changed, take dogs.
What they were before humans domesticated them and what they are now are very different.
Dogs have been selectively breed and are in some ways "made" by humans.

Third, the Tusken aren't animals by pretty much any definition other than strict biology. But then going strictly by biology then humans are animals as well.
Tusken are inteligent tool users and that can use fire and firearms. Not too many lions use guns.
They, like humans, domesticate various animals to serve them. They are inteligent enough to use methods to hide their numbers, like riding in a single file.
Their other name is "Sand PEOPLE". Cliegg and Anakin calls them animals or the like but both have suffered a terrible loss at the hands of the Tuskens so I would not expect them to be calm and rational about them.
Also Anakin/Lucas makes a point by using humans terms like "Women" and "Children" not "females" and "young", which is a broader term.

Are the Sand People barbaric, savage, brutal and cruel? Yes. But I can point to a lof of barbaric, cruel, savage and brutal things we humans have done over the millenia.
I won't condem all humans as "animals" based on the action of some. And if say an alien inteligence came to Earth, saw the worst aspects of humans and decided to wipe us all out, would that be fair?

NOTE: I am not defending what was done to Shmi, it was horrible and evil. But two wrongs don't make a right.

I have commented about this earlier. If their only goal is to torture Shmi to death, why would they waste food and water on her? They live in a desert and food and esp water is very scarce and a highly valuable resource. And they waste that on a prisoner they intend to kill?
Makes very little sense.
As far as the film go, rape isn't implied. It could be that they took her to use as slave labor, which is quite horrible enough thank you. That they wanted her to work and they beat her when she tried to run. NOTE, this is not an excuse, this behaviour is loathsome and terrible but at least it has some sense rather than pointless and wastefull torture.

You assume that the women or children could do something about it. Say if they had set her free then they could be tortured or killed. Also, how aware would a one year old child be about what is going on in the camp?
Also I am not at all comfortable with this "guilt by association" that you are using here.
Were all Germans guilty when it came to the Holocaust? They lived there, surely they must have know what was being done to the Jews and if they did nothing to stop it then they are just as guilty?

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I really doubt the women and esp the children ran and attacked Anakin. We know that Sand People are easy to scare and they WILL run away from what they see as a danger. They might return with greater numbers but they have a self-preservation instinct. So the warriors attacked Anakin and we saw a some of that. The women and children would either have tried to flee or hide in their tents.
Anakin would have made short work of the warriors given how much more powerfull he is, the last ones would probably try to run once they saw how little chance they had.
Then, given that Anakin said he killed them ALL, he must have searched every tent and killed all those inside, he would also have chased after those that tried to run. Anakin has the Force so he can run much faster than them. So anyone that he can still see, he would have no problem to chase down and kill. Could some have eluded him? It is possible, he says the killed them all and we have no reason to doubt him but the possibility exists. In any event, Anakin knew he killed women and children, or rather Slaughtered them like animals, as he puts it.
And how could he tell the difference between men and women among the Sand People? With their masks and robes, a man and a woman might look rather similar. Perhaps he knew because the men were the ones with weapons and attacked him and the women were unarmed.

In closing, I can understand why Anakin got angry and mad and wanted revenge. He suffered a loss under very terrible conditions. But where it crossed the line to me is when he talks about killing all of them, the womena nd the children. That, to me, implies a systematic search and destroy. And this moves it beyond a crime of passion.
To me, it also dulls the impact of Anakin killing children in RotS. He has already done that, yes he is calmer and more aware but it still didn't have as much impact as it could have had. If in AotC Anakin starts to go kill crazy and kills the men and then goes after the women and children. He is about to strike one down but is able to get ahold of himself and calm down.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor.

 

The Tuskens are scum; re: what Anakin did in AOTC, good riddance to bad rubbish.

Like I mentioned in another thread, just based on what we see in the films:

1) They took pot-shots at the pod-racers in TPM, just because they were vicious & felt liked it.

2) In AOTC, they captured & tortured Shmi for no reason.

3) They attacked Luke in ANH for no reason.

 

That doesn't mean they should be treated so in return.

 

Agree 100% - this sums it up for me as well.

 

And here I thought we were civilized enough to look at this objectively. I honestly cannot believe some of us have to actually argue against the genocide of an entire species just because of the actions of, literally, one tribe. I guess genocide is okay if you're not waging it on humans, am I right?

 

I'm told there's a lot of old Western movies where the Native Americans are portrayed as acting like the Tuskens - and the heroes are portrayed as acting like Anakin. This may be where Lucas got the idea from in the first place.

 

And leaving them alone sure didn't do anything did it?

 

Actually a vegan study claimed they were able to feed and keep a lion alive with sufficient protein through artificial meat. It allegedly got sick later in life though but they got it to adult hood.

Second, this isn't he dog. It's a wolf. You cannot train or domesticate a wild animal. Very different than domesticated animals.


There are animals that also use tools, and what about animals that have the capability to already shoot something from their bodies?

I have a feeling the "Sand people" was a term because they resembled "people". Similar to how the Koala bear is called a bear, but not actually related to a bear.

Again anakin is using these analogies, since they resemble humans.

Comparing sand people to humans, really? This may surprise you but as much violence as there is in the current world today, it's on a miniscule level of what humans have done in the past. The tuskens seem literally stuck on this mindset, and the proof is that they've been doing this for hundreds or thousands of years.

Two bad things don't make a right huh? I think the Jews, Europeans and Asians (suffered from Japanese brutality) Would kick your throat in for that. Believ eit or not, violence can be used for good and can solve conflicts and problems

Why was she alive? How do we know she was given water or food? They could've literally left her to starve to death and her sheer will kept her alive until she saw Anakin.

I more or less think she was a rape victim and very likely used as bait to bring more people to kill her, if we are to assume they gave her water to live.

Also abotu the sand people running, we have to remember that they were startled by what they thought was a "Krayt Dragon", and those sand people that captured Luke were around 2-3 in number? Obiwan said they would return in greater numbers.

Anakin, being at a Tusken camp full of them, they all likely had no reason to run away. it was a human after all. Just one. NOT a krayt dragon.

Actually I don't think it dulled it so much since again, they're sand people and not more sentient life.

As for confusing the males with females, well that's simple. Assume that all of the tuskens attacked, instead of running, who's to tell who's who? Especially since it was night and in a fit of rage. Anakin probably realized what he killed after the slaughter.

 

this debate still raging on is it?

I thought it was pretty obvious the scene was intended to show Anakin was going down a dark path, therefore was wrong to act the way he did,

"Anakin! Anakin! nooooo!!!" would be the biggest clue,

unless some heard "yes Anakin yes! doooo itttt"

 

Still seems like a few folks are "assuming" a lot - "assuming" the women were complicit, assuming the kids were, too, and then using those assumptions to justify their (mass) slaughter.

Sure, if we assume they really are animals with an inability to communicate other than in grunts like "animals" who will as a pack fall upon a small group and with just enough intelligence to enjoy torture (because I think few animals have that mental capacity to enjoy that) - then, sure, they were vermin who deserved to be wiped out.

But I don't assume all that.

But at least those justifying their killing are at least explaining their "assumptions." I just challenge those assumptions (and I don't take Lars or the settlers as the final word on the "humanity" of the Tuskens.)

 

You miss the entire point, what we now calls dogs WERE wild animals long ago and they were domesticated and changed by humans. Same thing with all "domesticated animals", they were once wild but are not anymore. So animal behavior can be altered.

About lions, I saw a program about two guys that took care of a lion cub but it eventually got too big for them so they handed it over to some wild life organization and they reintroduced it into the wild.
The two guys later came by the place where the lion now lived and he remembered them and licked and hugged them. They even got to meet his mate.

If you can't see the difference between using a rock to crack open nuts or sponge to protect your snout and building a rifle and being able to use it and load it. Then there is not much we can ever agree on. And the difference between the ability to say spit venom and making a rifle are also rather huge.

They, like humans are intelligent tool users that domesticate animals, make fire, are able to build huts, live in communities for protection.
The films message is pretty clear, they are like humans, human terms are used about them and for a reason.
They, like humans, also have the capacity for savagery, cruelty and violence. But look what some humans in the SW galaxy did, they blew up a whole planet as little more than an object lesson. Killing billions just to make a point.

Yeah the Holocaust, the Killing Fields, Stalin's purges and the really awful situation in Iraq and Syria are really miniscule. I am not denying that humanity have left some things behind it but there is still a lot of bloodshed going on.
And where did you get the timeframe? Nothing of the sort is established in the films.

And let me paint you a picture and see if that changes how you view the Tuskens.
5-600 years ago, the Tuskens were the dominant life form on Tatooine, they had cities, rules and laws. They were not that advanced technologically, say 18th or 19th century Earth.
Then humans come to Tatooine and they decided that they don't want to share the planet with the Tuskens and so they destroyed all their cities and exterminated 80% of the Tuskens and the survivors were driven into the desserts to die. The few that lived were driven by a murderous hatred of any outsider. Make any difference?
And no I know this isn't canon or EU, just a story.

And did I say that? No, I view those that fought against the Nazis in WW2 as doing the "right" thing, that some threat is so great that force is a viable option. But that wasn't my point, Anakin committed mass murder in response to the death of his mother. What happened to his mother was terrible and very wrong but so was his actions as a result of that. And thus, two wrongs don't make a right.
Which is a crucial point the film tried to make.

If say in WW2, the US, instead of nuking two cities, they decided to nuke the entire country of Japan and kill every last Japanese, would you view that as right and good?
I wouldn't, that would be going way too far in retaliation and would be genocide.

That was in part the thinking behind the Nuremberg trials. The allies could just have rounded up any Germans they were after and have them all shot, the victor makes the rules sort of thing.
But they didn't, they wanted to be better than those they have fought against.

Simply because you can't survive without water for one month, esp in a burning dessert.
And if she got no food, she would look very emaciated.

No because it showed that Tuskens are able to realize that a danger exist and run away from that danger. And as Obi-Wan said, they are easy to startle. I don't doubt that at first the Tusken warriors ran at Anakin. But once he had killed most or all of them, the rest would realize that if they stayed, they would all die. So they would flee or hide.
Even IF you want to call the Tusken animals, animals also have self-preservation.

Again the films disagree with your view on the Tuskens. They are shown as brutal, cruel and savage but clearly humanoid and a sentient life form.

Also, several religions extend sentient life to non-human life.

And those that fight for animal rights would also disagree;

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But as I said your assumption doesn't fit with other Tusken behavior nor does it make any sense based on how self-preservation works in most life forms.
So a much more reasonable assumption is that the Tusken men/warriors attacked Anakin, once they were dead Anakin turned to the women and the children, that either tried to run or hide.
Why else do you think that Anakin makes a point saying "And not just them men, but the women and the children too."? If the women behaved exactly like the men, it would be meaningless to bring up.

In closing, I think you really miss what the film is trying to say and show with this and I don't accept your assumptions about the situation.

Bye.
The Guarding Dark

 

Even if we take the view that the Tuskens did not have cities at the time the first settlers arrived in large numbers - that they were living the life of nomads at the time - their movements may still be being restricted by the intrusion of the settlers - big patches of Tusken territory may have been taken from them - settler moisture farming may be denying moisture to Tusken-inhabited regions, and so forth.

Result - Tuskens might react by murdering settlers that fall into their hands, in the hope of driving them off-planet.

 

Tusken Raiders are animals, but so are humans. So what?
We're all equal in the eyes of the Universe. If one is mean to the other, then the other might retaliate - or, the other might understand the simple fact that two wrongs don't make one right. Fire doesn't extinguish fire. Killing a murderer won't make the world a better place. Solving the problem that made the person kill in the first place might, though.

 

Guys, unless Disney/Lflm. gives us a back-story of the Tuskens (I haven't seen one yet) that's officially canon, as far as I'm concerned we don't really know what their history is. That being said, it does appear that they (and the Jawas) are native to Tattoine.

As far as the idea that Tuskens are attacking humans because they (the Tuskens) were there first & the humans later came to the planet & ended up intruding on their "turf", I guess this is possible. However, if you go by that logic here are several points to consider:

-Tattoine is not a planet a lot of settlers/humans live or would want to live. As we've seen in TPM, AOTC, ANH, and ROTJ (the films where the planet is featured most), the planet is desolate with very few cities. There is a lot of open space, with very little infrastructure to build around. The human/alien population seems to be centered on the few cities, with some moisture farms scattered around. The Tuskens, being nomadic, wouldn't necessarily covet one place over another. So, if settlers did intrude on their "turf", they have a lot of other places to go. The Native American vs. the the European settlers comparison isn't valid here, since North America had/has a lot of natural beauty & potential farmland - i.e., a lot of places the settlers would want to live. This is completely unlike Tattoine, which, as Luke said about in ANH: "If there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet it's farthest from."

-Did Tuskens ever attack the Jawas? It wasn't mentioned either way in the films (in ANH Luke & Ben were led to believe by the Stormtroopers that the Tuskens attacked the Sandcrawler, but Luke said he hadn't know the Tuskens to attack anything that big). However, I'm thinking that the Tuskens were dangerous to anyone non-Tusken.

I seriously get the impression that Tuskens are supposed to be like rabid dogs...

 

I thought the Kenobi novel did a good job of showcasing "life from the Tusken point of view".

 

Some animals could be domesticated. Such as the common chicken or cow. Over years upon years of evolution, and it only worked on some animals. Otherwise man would've domesticated the elephant, or dolphin. Animals we think we could, but ultimately they're not. That's why they are wild animals.

That lion cub story was a rare one in a million. There was also a chance it could've attacked them. There actually are stories that police have cracked down on of people who raise wolves like dogs. For the most part they act just like a dog. They play fetch, they come when you whistle, but usually end up attacking people. Can't take the wild out of an animal.

So a tusken is not some domesticated animal. They never have been, and never will be.

Actually the tuskens never *did* build rifles. According to Tuskens themselves this was stolen tech. And it's actually as easy to put together as a few pipes. Orangutans are capable of building would be hats to cover them from the sun and even rain. Apes who use sticks to dip inside of an anthill to get food, actually know which sticks are thick enough to not break, and even know to get or even CURVE their own sticks to get a better bend angle on it. Some even know how to pick ones with leaves on it to help scoop ants.

So again the tusken really is no different. If you want to say they use domesticated animals we can actually use examples of animals who domesticat etheir own animals. I.e. the "Farmer ant" which actually domesticates certain insects to milk dew from their appendages. Are you telling me that an ant is a domesticated animal, let alone a sentient being? Come now.

Also remember Tuskens don't just attack Humans. They attack anyone. Jawas, Twi'lek, you name it. You aren't them. You're dead meat pal.

As for your painted picture, that is a *story* that's like painting a picture the Jews destroyed Germany's cities and wiped them clean of technology, thus it justifies their later acts in WW2? Come now. If the Germans actually had the animal thinking of the Tusken Raiders, I guarentee you, that they would've been wiped out if they actually just kept fighting and attacking. Thankfully the German people aren't like that, and look at them striving now. Now as for the Tusken raiders? No. I think people would actually wipe them out, but no real organized force has ever had need to. Their numbers aren't that large, and it'd take too much of an effort to just genocide them all.

I will say this, Tuskens are very enduring. They would probably fight until the last man before ever surrendering. I doubt they actually think they have a last man.

This wasn't a "Mass murder". You forget who these animals are and what they do. Taking them out would be no different than if a few Jedi were sent to a planet to eliminate highwaymen who robbed and murdered people for crossing certain areas. Anakin did the people of Tatooine a favor. There probably are less deaths now for anyone who crosses the lands where they roamed. Would you feel any different if this was just a random group of thugs who did this?

And again with Japan, this case was a lot smaller than nuking the entire country. Anakin's acts would be more comparable with the "Fire cracker" airstrikes that American planes dropped on smaller Japanese regions, which killed hundreds of people. He didn't even solve a problem. He just slightly lessened a threat.

I'd argue the RLM category that Lucas doesn't explain certain thigns well, hence why he didn't CG her body to look more gaunt, or "Starving" or have her actually look dehydrated. If they were leaving her to die. But again if they really fed and gave her water, it was to use her as bait. Owen and crew went in, and they nearly got out alive. Hey this bait tactic could be advantageous to tusken murderers.

So you're saying the Tuskens didn't see Anakin as a danger, so the women and children just watched ? Why weren't they easily Startled? Assumign this was a large camp of them, there were likely more men who would be distracting anakin for several minutes. Why didn't the women and children leave? Why didn't they run, why weren't they startled or come back in greater numbers? Why? It seems very likely that the women and children were thrown into the fight. Hey, women and children were given AK47s during the "Black hawk down", so who are we to say they wouldn't have fought?

As for preservation, this is one tusken camp. They probably have numerous camps all over this sand planet. So even if they all died, eh, who cares. Their race lives on murdering somewhere else. :\

Again, Owen refers to them as Animals. I think RLM/Mr. Plinkett may have commented on this. One minute Owen refers to them as monstrous animals and later we're supposed to feel bad that Anakin killed women and children. (whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?)

Some religions do, but not all of them. Even the most peaceful ones, such as Jainism, technically consume non-sentient life. That's plant life.

Even animal rights activist will understand that their goal is to living a life where you hurt animals to the VERY LEAST of your extent (going vegan etc etc). A recent picture was posted that proved there is no such thing as a person who uses animal products/full vegan. Since we found out that animal parts go into just abotu everything, from paints to plastic, and of course medicine. An animal right activist would also know that putting down animals in the means of conservation (I.e. too much of a poppulation for a potent predator putting an animal it consumes out of extinction)

But this is digressing way too much.

let's get down to the bare ball facts.


And no, again I highly doubt that these tusken women and children bothered to hide or run. There had to be several dozen men distracting anakin, causing the women and children mor ethan enough time to jump on a bantha and hightail it, or run on their own feet to locations or caves they knew where to hide, if something dangerous (to their knowledge) came about, i.e. a krayt dragon. If the women and children hid, I highly doubt Anakin would start scavenging tatooine for every cave or nook or chase them through a desert to catch them. Again, Anakin fights with a Sword. A melee weapon. He wasn't mowing them down with a minigun(blaster). They would have had to been pretty close to get into his attack range. And we see this in Episode 3, when in both situations he kills the Jedi younglings AND the CIS commanders, both are in small enclosed rooms. No where to run. The sand people had a vast open desert. Which as we already know, RUN when they see something of greater threat. I believe the sand children and women ran at him. And as someone else said, some of the women do in fact fight.

 

Why is it that the women and children could not escape or run away? Anakin fights in a close range combat setting. It wasn't like he attacked them with a fighter ship or a bomber. (As funny as that would be), I Just don't see how it is women and children could not run away from a man swinging a sword, while he was fighting off the horde of male warriors.

I think Michael Moore may have argued "Do you think the columbine shooters would've gotten as far as they did or as many kills if they used knives or baseball bats?"

 

He also has telekinesis - the AOTC novel points out that he hurled boulders at those who tried to flee, flattening them.

 

I've been looking through past posts - and apparently it was said quite a few times that the Shmi scenes in AOTC were visually a nod to the John Wayne movie The Searchers. Maybe the Tusken are "stand-ins" for Native Americans?

With "They're mindless, vicious animals" being exactly the sort of thing racists said back then?

As a great many people point out, Plinkett is way overrated.
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/red-letter-media-and-other-prequel-reviews.32077440/

 

the point I was responding to argued that animal behaviour CAN'T be altered. I have proven this to be wrong by bringing up domesticated animals.
And as for dolpins and elephants, they are animals we humans actually make use of and are able to train. They aren't totally domesticated by we have been able to alter their behaviour.

Yes and no, they are not animals period.
And by fefusing to allow for the possibility of change then of course the Tuskens won't ever change.

And is this ever established in the films? No, so not relevant. And a rifle is a tad more complicated than a few pipes. There is also the trigger mechanism and also ammo. The rifles that the tuskens use look more advanced than say muskets. So the Tuskens also have to make or get amunition and keep the rifles in working order. In all, way beyond using sticks.

So? Humans doesn't just kill humans, we kill a whole lot of various animals, sometimes for food but also for ornaments or just for fun.

In regards to WW2, what did the Nazis do to the Jews before they tried to wiped them all out?
They used a lot of propaganda designed to make the Jews seem less human and thus the killing of them would not be seen as bad. And this was not the first nor last time that this type thing has happened. The "enemy" is often demonized, made subhuman, or not human at all.
It is easy to hate a group, much less easy to hate a person that has done nothing to you.

The films prove you wrong, the Tuskens ran from what they thought was a danger, no desperate last stand, no fight to the death.

It was mass murder because the Tusken are not animals and you have not been able to give any evidence that they are. They are called Sand PEOPLE, they are humanoid, use tools and clothes, ahve fire and fire arms, domesticate animals and use tactics to hide their numbers.
Even Anakin uses human terms about them, so the film is quite clear here. What Anakin did was wrong and even he knows it.

And do you think those Jedi would kill the wives and children of those highwaymen?

And if you killed every male human on Earth there would be less rape, are you in favor of that?
Exterminating a whole group of people for the actions of some is not a moral that I will ever support or understand. Sadly this is something we humans have done or tried to do in our bloody history.
And let me turn the question around. If Shmi was taken by a band of Human pirates and tortured and killed and Anakin wiped them and their wives and children out. Would you feel the same?

We saw that one Tusken run at Anakin with a weapon, so they did attack him. We also saw another run behind a tent. Once Anakin had killed the warriors or most of them, they would realize that he was a danger and try to run or hide. I argue that the women DID exactly that but Anakin ran after them and kileld them. A Jedi has Force speed and can run fast. He also would have searched the whole camp for those that tried to hide and killed them too.

Why was the line about womena nd children included do yout hink and why those specific words.
We saw Anakin get angry and start to kill in hate. But a very specific point was made by Anakin himself that he didn't just kill them men, he exterminated the entire village, down to the last child.
Do you thik we were supposed to cheer for Anakin? Give him a medal for a genocide well done?

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First, the films prove you wrong, Tuskens can run from danger and they would have done so here.
Second, we don't see any banthas near the camp so who is to say that they have any?
Third, the area around the camp was quite open and thus Anakin would be able to spot those that tried to run.
Fourth, Anakin would have searched the camp since he said he killed them all. Could some have gotten away and he didn't notice? Possibly.
Fifth, Anakin has the Force and can run fast and throw things with it, so more than just a sword.
Sixth, if the women fougth as mcuh as the men then it would be meaningless to make a distinction between them. But the film does make such a distiinction and for a reason.

Bye
Old Stoneface