PT Defending Anakin and the Tusken

I doubt the average Tatooine inhabitant cared much whether the Tusken were less intelligent or more than other species in that area. All they want is to be left alone, to not be attacked and forced to live a life in fear. They wanted a peaceful life free from danger and terrorists, just like any normal person. Had the Tusken been wiped out I don't think anyone would have shed a single tear, more likely they'd think "good riddance! Now we and our children can leave our homes after dark without the threat of being killed, mutilated, tortured or only robbed". Who would prefer fear over safety?

 

Thing is, whether or not Anakin did or didn't make things any safer for settlers or scared off Tusken does NOT justify what he did... Because that's not why he did it. He didn't go out to make a safer world for moisture farmers, he went out to find his mother. He didn't wipe out the tribe for any semblance of justice, purely revenge and rage.

Any possible/debatable "benefits" of his actions don't mitigate the wrongness of him walking in and wiping out dozens of life forms.

 

Which is more or less what I wrote earlier. We have been through the debate on morals for many pages already, so I think it's time to move on to another aspect, which now is how Anakin's revenge might be regarded by others on Tatooine.

 

Fair enough. But personally I don't think it would have changed that much beyond on a local scale. Tusken might avoid that one area for fear of what wiped out a whole tribe, but other tribes in other places would not be deterred, especially when it's revealed as a fluke one off and there's not actually a Tusken hunting monster roaming the dunes.

In ANH they are more than happy to attack humans who wander into their territory (they are scared off by what they think is a krayt Dragon NOT a Jedi)... Which is exactly what happened to Shmi. She was on Tusken ground, she got abducted. So yes, one tribe is gone, but overall I don't see much has changed.

 

Which is why the settlers need to band together and attack more settlements.

Keep killing tuskans until hopefully they get the message.

It's war and you don't win wars by dancing about a issue.

 

Or stay off their territory and stop provoking them. Genocide is not really what I would call an ideal solution.

 

To be fair though, the Tuskens aren’t exactly helping matters by constantly attacking settlers. As far as we know, there have been no attempts by the Tuskens to try and secure a deal with the human settlers.

I’m not advocating genocide, I’m just looking at things from a different lens.

 

Again, all this is pure speculation. Sure it's possible Anakin's extermination had no effect, but there is no hard proof that it didn't either. Maybe that one camp was an especially aggressive Tusken tribe, and most attacks were done by them? What one area would the Tusken avoid? Anakin as is apparent in the movie went a long way to find that one camp. This proves that the Tusken themselves did NOT limit their kidnappings to "invaders" to their territory, but they themselves traveled great distances to get their prey.
And again, we know nothing about how tribes communicated with other tribes. Why do some assume there was no interaction? Some of you like to compare the Tusken to Indians. OK, for the sake of argument, let's just pretend they really were meant to be some kind of space Indians. In that case, wouldn't they be very good at reading tracks and other signs? Let's just say a nearby related tribe came across the remains of Anakin's camp a few days later? A culture familiar with the desert and dependent on survival skills in such a hostile environment would have developed skills at reading tracks and signs of violence. Even Aragorn did a pretty good job in finding out what went on with Frodo and Sam escaping their Orc captors. So at the very least the Tusken would have found out by analyzing footprints that the camp was eliminated by a single attacker, also the bodies were sliced apart by a yet unknown weapon that uses extreme heat and focused energy, not something commonly found on Tatooine. Even without eyewitnesses, a legend of a vengeful desert wraith wielding a deadly blade of light who attacks in the night may have developed.
Also, we naturally take Anakin's word that he killed "every single one", but who says his statement is to be trusted? We mistrust him in other respects, so why take his account of what happened literally? Maybe he DID think he killed every last camp inhabitant, or maybe he was simply exaggerating in his emotional state of grief, anger, despair and guilt? It was dark. Could he have been 100% sure not a single one of the children may have fled into the desert or secret hiding place when he started his attack? Did he really keep an eye on every single Tusken in the camp? And if he did see someone flee, would he really have gone chasing after them? I don't think so. There may very well have been survivors in spite of what Anakin says to Padmé. Even one would have been enough to spread the tale of a fearless desert avenger.

Nope, she was picking mushrooms practically right next to the farm. See my post above. If the farms' vicinity were dangerous during the ANH era then Luke, Owen and Beru would have known about it and been more careful. No, in that era the Tusken threat clearly had decreased.

Oh no, A LOT has changed, see my earlier comments on ANH.

Precisely the way I see it.

 

When and where was it established where Shmi was taken from? Because I saw no mushrooms or any foliage at all on the actual farm, so unless there's something I missed she must have gone elsewhere. So far we have seen exactly zero attacks by Tusken on human grounds. Shmi was alone somewhere when she was taken. Luke was well off the beaten path when he was attacked. The podracers were out in the desert when fired upon. The posse deliberately went out hunting after Tusken and were ambushed.

So far the Tusken have not been seen to attack anyone outside of their own territory, and if the humans are justified in attacking Tusken who DID go into human lands, the Tusken are EQUALLY justified in attacking humans on Tusken land.

 

Sorry, no. Shmi picked mushrooms that grew on THEIR own evaporators, so it couldn't have been far from home. Remember she was on foot. It took Anakin HOURS on a speeder bike to find the camp. So it's safe to assume the Tusken left "their" territory when they took Shmi.
Ah.... no, there was no foliage because Tatooine doesn't have trees. It's a desert planet. Which doesn't mean some plant or other won't survive there. Those evaporators would not necessarily have been visible from the farm, I guess they were spread out some distance from home into the desert. This doesn't mean Tusken land was stolen in any way. Also we don't know how far exactly the Lars property extends. I myself always interpreted it as Shmi still being on her own property when she was taken. The Tusken invaded and kidnapped, period, there is no other way of seeing it. I really don't think Shmi took a speeder and gun to pick mushrooms on others' private territory.

 

But like I have said before, this your argument hinges on several assumptions.
1) That in the whole history of the settler vs Sand People conflict, NEVER has a whole camp been destroyed.
That is frankly an unlikely assumption.
Given the tech disparity between them it would not have been difficult for the settlers to fly over a camp and drop bombs on it.
And if other camps has been totally destroyed before and it didn't make the Sand People less hostile, why would it now?
2) Also, as I have also said, violence begets violence. So IF other tribes of Sand People found out about this, they could just as likely get outraged and step up their attacks. We have plenty of examples of that in our history.

But as you said, Anakin had to travel quite far to get to the camp and we can assume that no other camp is closer as then Anakin would have gone there instead.
And he had a speeder bike, which is a lot faster than banthas.
Say it took 6 hours for him to get there and since he went to the nearest camp, any other camp must be further away. Let's say 20 hours in the opposite direction. Likely further.
So over a day with a fast bike, with banthas, we are talking at least 4-5 days of travel.

And again, the Sand People have no tech to get water from the air, they have to use wells or other underground sources of water. And again, water is incredibly rare on Tatooine so no tribe would want another tribe using their water supply. That is another argument for why these camps are likely spread out quite far.
And as I have also said, this is a whole PLANET here, not a country or continent.
If you want to compare with native Americans, let's say that one tribe lives in Mississippi and the nearest tribe lives in Oregon. How long would it take for news of one tribes destruction to reach the other?
Quite long.

And lastly, the Sand People are raiders, they don't trade and they are shown to be very hostile. So what reason would one tribe have to go to the other?

Aragorns' tracking skill were beyond normal men and he knew the Hobbits well and he came there very soon after the events.
If other Sand People came to that camp two months after the attack, they would not be able to conclude much. The wind would have obscured the tracks, the bodies would be decayed or eaten.
And how would they know it was just one attacker?
Even IF we assume they can tell the difference between Anakin's foot prints and other Sand People. Again they are humanoid and walk on two legs so his tracks would not be very different from theirs.
It could be several attackers that happened to have the same foot size.

Also, people have alluded to Batman and his legend.
Lets' say that Batman did just ONE thing. Say taking down the mob boss in Batman Begins, Falconi I think.
And then he never did anything after that. He was never heard or seen again.
How much of a legend would that create?
Sure people would talk about it but with no more events, it would fade away and not have much of an effect.
Same here, this is one attack.
And even if we assume that the Sand People would find this camp very soon and think that some vengeful ghost did this.
After 20 years of no further attacks, this would also likely fade away.
Take Han Solo, he was quite dismissive of Jedi and the Force and it had been less than 20 years since the Jedi were quite active in the galaxy.
And the Jedi were quite well known.

In this case, evidence IN the film trumps anything that you imagine happened.
Anakin says he killed them ALL and unless we have other info from the film that disproves or throws doubt on that, we must take it as fact.
If you want to argue that there were survivors despite what Anakin said, you need to prove it.
Saying "He might have been wrong" is not enough.
And since he said "ALL" I do think that he chased after those that ran and searched the whole camp looking for people to kill.
This is a major reason why I view what he did more harshly, the implied systematic and methodical nature of his slaughter. Esp the children.
He didn't just kill those who attacked him, he searched the whole camp, every tent and killed any and all he could find.

She picked mushrooms on a vaporator, this was apparently fairly far from the house.

Based on this, those in the house neither saw nor heard the attack, they looked at tracks.
And Cliegg said it was just before dawn, ie it was not yet day. And Luke didn't dare risk going out looking for R2 when it was getting dark due to the danger of Sand People.
So not a big difference there.

Also, consider this, before this kidnapping, they were just four people in that house and no other house in visible range. So just four people and yet they lived there even with the danger of Sand People attacks.
If the Sand People used to be so much more aggressive, why hadn't they attacked earlier?
Instead, Cliegg had apparently done quite well for himself as a farmer as he had enough money to buy a slave. If attacks used to be so very common, how is this possible?

Also, Shmi apparently did this quite often and she had been with Cliegg for a while it seemed.
If Sand People were so much more hostile and attacks were so very common, why did she go out alone and away from the house? Surely she would have know about the danger but she went out anyway and apparently had done so quite often.
Again, Luke would not go out after sunset.

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Not really, Shmi was out before dawn and Luke would not go out after sunset. She was alone and a ways from the house, same with Luke.

And speaking of Luke, he said he had never heard of Sand People attacking a Jawa crawler.
You argue that such attacks used to happen but stopped after Anakin's slaughter.
If so, why would Luke not have heard of it?
If such attacks was in living memory, he could and would likely have heard about them.
Esp if the Sand People had suddenly changed their behavior.

Ex. plenty of people have heard of Jack the Ripper even though they were not alive when those events happened. So clearly we can hear about things that happened before we were born.

In closing, the Sand People that Obi-Wan frightened, first they ran because he made a sound of a Krayt Dragon, which is a dangerous beast. Second, they went to get more people and were coming back.
So it was not a case of them fleeing from a Jedi. They ran from a threat but got help and came back.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Is there anything to indicate that an entire camp had been wiped out before? Sure there was conflict, but it's not like there was an open war. Some settlers may have done a few drive-by shootings, but I honestly don't think they had ever exterminated entire settlements, much less by bombing them. Let's assume farmers had bombs, then why not wipe out all camps? If not the older farmers, young hotheads like Luke who are bored all the time and have lots of free time, could have done that. But there isn't sufficient firepower on the average farm for such an attack, besides Luke's blaster rifle. And we don't know if the Skyhopper is armed at all.
My theory is that while there have been Tusken attacks before they may have escalated in recent times up to AOTC, for some reason. Maybe we now have a new generation of younger Tusken that tend to be more violent and aggressive than their parents? Not unthinkable. Think The Godfather. The older generation like Vito Corleone were more conservative and diplomatic, only used violence when they had to, while both Michael and Sonny are much more openly aggressive. It could be that among the younger Tusken there are more hotheads who think nothing of kidnapping and torture. Maybe it was this new trend, that older Tusken were less extreme in their methods.

Sure it's possible, as I said. But we can't completely discard the possibility either that Anakin's attack had an intimidating effect, and may have made the Tusken less bold and eager to provoke.

This raises the question why that particular group of Tusken traveled 4 or 5 days just get to that particular farm.
Did they have a personal score to settle with Shmi or Cliegg? I doubt it. Then why go all that way when they could have found prey closer to their camp?

That would depend on the degree of superstition Tusken have. Maybe they were highly superstitious and fearful of the spirit world? That's why they aren't scared of the average farmer. Anakin's form of attack was on an entirely different level though, would certainly have appeared a lot more "supernatural" than a bunch of farmers with guns.

Maybe Solo never had any direct confrontations with the Jedi, so he wouldn't have that much respect for them. Also Solo is a very pragmatic down-to-earth guy who believes in nothing but the physical world, so there is zero room for superstition in his worldview. We simply know no such thing about the Tusken.

Fair enough. So let's agree on Anakin telling the truth, fine. But it's just possible that he THOUGHT he got them all, but maybe had overlooked the odd Tusken or two who escaped. Remember it was dark, and Anakin was blinded by fury. He didn't go about the executions in cold blood, but blind rage.

If all that happened before Luke was born I guess there was no need to tell him, as it wouldn't affect him personally anymore. Owen isn't the talkative type, and the subject itself is very sensitive to him, so he may have avoided telling Luke in the first place. Same with his friends. They would have been too young to have had direct encounters with Tusken if they stayed out of Tusken territory. And even if Luke had heard of attacks in the past, he felt safe enough to not be overly concerned. Sure, he avoided going out at night, but I think that's because going after R2 might have meant leaving familiar territory and venturing out into potentially dangerous Tusken land. The fact that he felt safe enough near his home, Tosche Station etc. supports the theory that at that time Tusken no longer attack far from their own territory.

See above. It could be that hostility by the Tusken had increased compared to previous years, whatever the cause. Maybe there had been renewed violent conflicts between some Tusken tribes and other settlers, and Shmi simply didn't know that the situation had escalated. It's pretty clear from what Cliegg says that while everyone was aware of a certain danger, the kidnapping came as a surprise to everyone, and was unexpected. Now what happened AFTER Anakin's intervention could possibly have reversed that escalated aggression and given the Tusken a warning.

Luke was reluctant to go into unknown and dangerous areas. He wasn't afraid to stick to his standard destinations like Tosche. Also, this contradicts what you wrote earlier, that the humans had far superior firepower. Luke could have taken the Skyhopper to get R2, but for some reason even that didn't make him feel safe. That means that the Tusken are thought to be a threat even against airplanes.

OK, then why not steal evaporators? Why not kidnap humans in exchange for giving, installing and maintaining evaporators, or even water? Why not keep Shmi for ransom, and set her free once their demands for technology and resources have been fulfilled?

 

Here's the map
The Lars homestead is at the bottom, right. The Tusken camp that Anakin attacked is next to the letter "U" in "Jundland Wastes." Obi-Wans hovel is, according to this map, 10 miles NW of the former camp, which is 60 miles from the homestead, so, an hour away by car. That's at least two days travel by foot(althought there are aboriginee tribes in central america and elsewhere that can run 60-100 miles in a day!), one day by mount, bantha or whatever they would use.

The red line that goes all around the map is the Jawa's scavenging, and sales route. They go relatively close to the Tusken camp, probably by necessity, to navigate the difficult terrain.

 

Shmi was never said to be on "Tusken ground" in AOTC right? It seemed like she was going about her business, "as she always did" as per the film. Then she was taken. And the riders who went out to try and find her, were either killed, or maimed. As for the era of ANH, it appears the Tuskens are not considered a threat except for after dark, or in "greater numbers." Luke has never heard of them "hitting anything this big before."

The Tuskens (or certain Tuskens) are shown to be a menace in TPM, where they openly shoot at pod racers, and explicitly kill one as shown on screen. They engage in villainy. The ordinary citizens of Tatooine (be they Human, Tusken, Twilek, Rodian, Jawa, etc) are unable to live a life free from fear of criminals, gangsters, slavers etc because the Republic is apathetic to their plight, doesn't enforce the law and leaves the Outer Rim to fend for itself.

Precisely. The citizen (whatever their species) of Tatooine wants to live a life free from fear, poverty and criminality. Living as slaves, or as fearful farmers, destitute scroungers or helpless hungry desert dwellers was not what they wanted. And that is what the "Republic" gave them. The Jedi, it seemed, for far too long had gone along with this apathy. Qui Gon clearly begun to see this during his short stay on Tatooine, where he rescued the Chosen One, though he did try to free his mother also.

The Tuskens kill a pod racer in TPM. Slavery prevails. The vile Hutts have criminal control. People are willing to turn people into bantha fodder knowing the Republic does nothing...nothing to stop any of this. And the Tuskens openly kidnap Shmi, and kill, or maim any would be rescuers.

It is probable that a monument would be built to the Jedi vigilante who exacted justice. A legend born and a mythical story told. And even for Tuskens, they would learn a lesson and fear brought to the doorsteps of their own camps.

Any citizen, be they human, tusken, twillek, rodian, bothan, droid, jawa could live in a more peaceful society. Things are indeed Better by ANH, where the Empire has a presence on the planet. Where troopers patrol the streets, a central Imperial currency is accepted galaxy wide and Tuskens seem to be fearful. The Imperials also seem to reign in the criminal fraternity with checks on smuggling, violence and illicit dealings. It would appear that the vile Hutts, or the Tuskens are related to the outlands and even then have to operate only when they have large numbers to hand.

 

All of which has nothing to do with Anakin's attack on the camp. At all.

 

You only quoted one part and then say I'm not talking about Anakin's attack. I said that Shmi was taken as described in AOTC. Which is why Anakin went to find her, as in AOTC. And ultimately decided in anger to take them out, again in AOTC. See my previous post.

 

What does the Republic have to do with Tatooine? Tatooine has it's own laws. They don't want some foreign power coming in and telling them how to live their lives.

 

First, much of your argument as to why Anakin would be worshiped as a Hero on Tatooine is that the Sand People used to carry out massive attacks. That farms were destroyed regularly and Jawas were attacked and so on.
So the Sand People had been a massive threat and did loads of killings but after the massacre, they became quite timid.
If the Sand People had done so many attacks then a retaliation would have happened.

Second, why limit yourself to farmers? Take the Hutts, they have loads more weapons.
And given the Sand People's general hostility towards others and a lack of care who they attack, I think it likely that they at some point attacked something that was valuable to the Hutts and I would think the Hutts struck back hard.

Third, the Sand People are from Tatooine but the humans and Hutts are not.
So at no point did any of the off-world settlers find a place they wanted but that had a Sand People camp?
Doubt it.
Could they convince the Sand People to move?
Unlikely.
Solution, destroy the camp.

But here you are invalidating your own argument.
You argued that Anakin's actions caused the Sand People to become less hostile and do less attacks.
But if the level of attacks from Sand People have varied before then why would Anakin's actions be anything of note?
If Sand People at times had been quiet and not done much in the way of hostility and at others times, they are more aggressive. Then IF Anakin's massacre caused the Sand People to be less aggressive then the other people of Tatooine would think little of it. It would just be the normal pattern of Sand People sometimes being aggressive and sometimes not.

Also, in the case of Shmi, they didn't attack the farm, which again had only four people.
They took a lone person that was a ways from the farm and it was before dawn.
Not a terribly bold or daring thing that.

But Sand People are still a danger in ANH, so much so that Luke won't go out after dark.
The attacks we see from Sand People in all the films are; taking pot shots at racers, kidnapping a lone woman a ways from the house and attacking Luke when he was also away from the house.
These are not very bold attacks.
Yes we hear about the farmers that went after Shmi. But now we have Sand People Defending against an attack plus these were farmers, not soldiers and if they were on foot or in speeders and in terrain the Sand People knew, they would be at a disadvantage.

So I don't think the films imply that the Sand People were much less of a threat in ANH than in TPM and AotC.

As I said above, the Sand People's pattern of attacks are against weak and easy targets.
Luke was alone, same with Shmi and she was away from the house, same with Luke.
You'll note that the Sand People didn't attack the house, which again had only four people in it.
Surely 20 warriors could take that with little problem.
But they didn't, they took a lone person away from the house.
Why there?
Speculation here but Shmi had a habit of doing this and if she had been spotted earlier by some scout and they had noticed that she regularly did this alone and before dawn then she would be an easy target.
Again Sand People are NOT nice, they raid, that is what they do.
They became aware of an easy target and took the opportunity.

Same with the pod race, I would think that the track had been used before so the Sand People knew where it was and if the races were help regularly, they would know when a race would happen and so put people there.

But again, take Obi-Wan. He manages to scare the Sand People away but he said they would come back and in greater numbers.
So startling a few of them is not that hard but they would not flee forever, they would run for help and come back.

The Sand People that had direct confrontation with Anakin are all dead. There is only the camp and dead bodies. Yet you think that word of that would scare the pants of all Sand People.
The Jedi were very well known 20-30 years ago as was their power.
Nute had not meet a Jedi before and yet almost messed his pants when he heard that the ambassadors were Jedi.
And take the Motti on the DS, who mocks Vader. Had he also never seen or heard about the power of the Jedi?

But if we start ignoring what characters say then these discussions become pointless as then we can just make up anything we want.
In RotJ, Yoda tells Luke that when he is dead, Luke is the last of the Jedi.
Is it POSSIBLE that Yoda was wrong and that some Jedi were alive and hidden somewhere else?
Is it POSSIBLE that he was lying?
Yes but should we therefore assume that he is?
In TPM Anakin says he is the only human that can pod race. Could he be wrong? Yes.
But since we have no reason to think he is wrong, we must take what he says as fact until we have reason to think otherwise.

As for Anakin, since he was methodical enough to search the whole camp, ever last tent, looking for people to kill. I think he was not that out of control.
And since he could apparently spot people trying to run and chase after them, that too indicates a level of control and determination.

An attack on a Jawa crawler would not affect Luke personally even if they do happen.
So if they have happened, there is no reason at all why Luke would not have heard of it.
And a change of behavior is something that would likely lead to talk.
If say 20 crawlers a year were attacked before AotC and after the number dropped to zero.
That would be talked about. People would wonder why the Sand People are suddenly less aggressive, if the Jawas made some sort of deal and what not.
However if Sand People have never attacked Jawa crawlers either before or after AotC, then this makes sense.

Luke knew that Sand People were dangerous, he was familiar with their weapons and bantha tracks.
So he had clearly been told a fair amount of them.
He knew less than Obi-Wan, who could spot that Sand People are not as good shots as Storm Troopers and how they ride to hide their numbers.

Except problem, going out right then and there would mean that R2 would be much closer to the house as less time would have passed since he left. And waiting until the next day would mean that R2 would be significantly further away and possibly into Sand People territory.
And yet Luke would not risk going out after dark.
Suggesting that Sand People can be closer to the farms at night than they are at day.
Which is pretty much what happened with Shmi.

And as I said above, you contradict your own argument.
If there have been periods with less Sand People attacks and periods with more attacks before, then why would Anakin's massacre, IF it caused the Sand People to be less aggressive, be something of note?
If other events have caused the Sand People to calm down, why would this instance give rise to hero worship?

First, Luke has to bring R2 BACK. Could he do that with the Skyhopper? We don't know.
Second, Luke used a scanner in the speeder to find R2, does the Skyhopper have such a scanner?
Again unknown.
Third, Luke was desperate not to let Owen find out about this. Taking the Skyhopper would certainly be more noticeable than using the speeder and lead to questions that Luke does not want.
And as I said above, leaving directly has the advantage of R2 being much closer to the farm.

And Luke DID go out in unknown territory but only when it was daylight.
Night was too dangerous, even closer to the farm.

And we know that Luke has flown around with his Skyhopper a lot, shooting womp rats.
Apparently with little fear of Sand People.

So odds are that the reason Luke used the speeder and not the Skyhopper has nothing to do with Sand People being a danger to air crafts.

[/QUOTE]

Again, tech disparity. the Sand People are not knowledgeable enough to work evaporators.
They lack the tech.
And it is likely that the settlers, given how hostile the Sand People are and if Cliegg's comments are like how the others think, they would not barter with them and they would certainly not want to give them a leg up in technology as that could make them even more dangerous.

What you talk about does make some sense but I think it would require an effort from both sides to find a peaceful way to resolve issues and I think that neither side is interested in that.
Sand People are simply hostile and the Hutts won't care if the Sand People are nothing more than a minor nuisance. If they were a major nuisance then the Hutts would simply kill them.
Same with the farmers, if Sand People are a minor problem, like the occasional attack and you stay out of their territory, then they won't do much. If one tribe causes too much problem, kill them.

And as Luke said, there are worse things on Tatooine than Sand People.

@DarthTalonx

Again Solo shows this is not so.
Criminals seem more bolder and more active and can hold a significant fraction of a planetary population in near or actual slavery.
They can kill or torture with little fear of Imperial actions.
Imperials are shown as taking bribes and either looking away from the actions of criminals or actively working with them to serve their own ends.

If we go by just the OT, Jabba, a well known gangster could move around town openly and his location was not a secret and yet the empire did not lift a finger to stop him.
Wanted criminals could walk around with little fear of soldiers and could even start brawls without much worry about the "law".
Sand People were still a danger of you went out at night or too far out into the wilds.

In short, no life was worse under the empire for quite a lot of people.
Owen and Beru were murdered by the Empire, same with the Jawas.
Luke hated the empire and there was a growing rebellion against it.
Plus a whole planet and billions of lives were killed just as an object lesson.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The truth is, based on the films, not a lot is known about the Tuskens. We hear some snippets here and there and see some of their actions and yet they remain somewhat mysterious. I don't think it is a coincidence that Lucas would use them as the people involved with Anakin's massacre. I can't imagine that Lucas wanted us to feel that what Anakin did was right. The unknown leaves a lot to the imagination, and often the imagination goes wild. Those people think this, value that, hate them, lust those, feel this, know that... This attitude is not unknown to humanity. Races and ethnicities have been called evil or less than human. It's been the justification for slavery or genocide. We do this to each other all the time and if we never learn, we will do it for all eternity, or at least until we have murdered each other to extinction.

 

Maybe the Hutts do once in a while exterminate some Tusken camp or other? Or maybe they simply can't be bothered because a criminal organization like the Hutts is too powerful to be threatened by a bunch of nomads? Or maybe the Tusken are simply too yellow to attack anyone who is clearly stronger? We simply will not know.

Also, the Hutts are generally known to be criminals and unscrupulous, while the farmers are not. When I wrote Tusken camps had previously PROBABLY not been devastated I meant mainly those farmers, not necessarily Hutts. But again, we are talking about an entire planet here. Who says the Tusken are all over Tatooine? Maybe their presence is limited to a certain area, which could be on the other side of the planet from Hutt territory for all we know.... so, no conflict of interests.

No one said the Tusken were terribly bold or brave to begin with. Is shooting at podracers bold? Attacking presumably unarmed Jawas? Shooting at a single landspeeder? We don't know the Tusken as anything else but cowards. Sure, even cowards can be cruel and dangerous. It doesn't take courage to be that.

As I said, because they are cowards. Where did I say otherwise? Take 20 people and attack a farm when you can take an unarmed middle-aged woman instead? Why? Yes, there were only four people, but the farm itself is something of a fortress compared to the open desert, open to flat desert on all sides. When there are 4 armed people inside what sense would it make for the Tusken to attack. The Lars would have hidden behind thick walls. What cover would attacking Tusken have had?

Exactly what I was saying, Tusken prefer easy prey. What I questioned was their motive for traveling 4 or 5 days just to get near the Lars farm.

Yet another sign of cowardice. Never attack unless you outnumber the "enemy" 50:1. And again, where do I contradict myself?

Do we know any such thing? I never said he was "out of control" but "in a blind rage". I agree that he probably did go to every tent, but I'm not convinced that he chased anyone that might have gotten away into the desert when he started attacking.

OK, this much is true enough.

Yes, I pretty much agree here.

 

The contradiction arises for two reasons.
You want to paint the Sand People, prior to AotC, as this scourge of Tatooine. That they attacked farms, Jawas, everyone on a pretty large scale. That the death toll from Sand People attacks was very high.
But then Anakin wiped out one camp and word of that spread to ALL other Sand People tribes and so scared them that they became much more timid and hardly did any more attacks.
You argue this in order to make Anakin into a Legend of Tatooine, the great hero that put an end to the tyranny of the Sand People.

However contradictions arise.
One, if the Hutts have destroyed camps before, as punishment for raids. Then clearly the destruction of one camp has happened before and thus what Anakin did is not something that unusual to Sand People.
And would thus cause any change larger than such things did in the past.
Two, that the Sand People are cowards, that they won't dare attack a farm with just four people and so on. That runs counter to the idea that farms were destroyed on a fairly regular basis prior to Anakin's massacre.

You argue that a new generation of Sand People are more aggressive and violent. Yet not aggressive or violent enough to dare an attack against a farm with just four people.
It does not fit.

To me what we have and PT and OT show little difference with the Sand People.
They go after easy targets, even a farm with just four people is too hard.
Sniping at passerby's, people out alone at night and away from settlements or people that venture into their territory.

So there wasn't this massive wave of destruction caused by Sand People that suddenly stopped after Anakin wiped out one camp.
They were a danger in both PT and OT and going out alone, at night or away from settlements was dangerous. But the danger was not measurably higher in the PT than in the OT.

All that happened is that area was probably more quiet and calm for a while, until a new tribe moved in.
Other than that, it changed nothing with regards to the Sand People.
And to the people of Tatooine, nothing much has changed.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Well, your reasoning is valid as well. As I wrote before, I never meant that my speculation was to be seen as fact, I was just giving a possible alternate perspective.

 

I don't really think on a meta-level what Anakin did is defensible at all. It is disturbingly understandable somewhat on a human level, though, which I think is the point. It was very appropriately ominous. Anakin justified mass murder with a personal crime against his loved one. I think that is, on a very simple level, unambiguously wrong.

The only issue I really have with the way this was presented in the film is Padme's immediate justification of it. Just as it was supposed to be ominous and a warning sign to the audience, it should have been that for Padme. They weren't even a couple yet, not that my opinion would be different if they were. It should have been something that Padme had to overcome and learn to understand and trust him again before she was okay with it. It's really too much considering that Padme was introduced and developed as an idealist with a very strong moral center.

 

Well, I gues she had other things to worry about so she didn't dwell on the incident. The next day they got an emergency call from Kenobi, shortly after they were about to be executed, then a galaxy-wide war started. At that point it's kind of understandable how a camp of Tusken are not really top priority for her. Anakin was emotionally troubled for as long as she had known him. I wonder how Lucas himself explains her lack of reaction. If she is supposed to be that morally perfect character and Anakin's actions 100% evil, there must be some kind of reasoning behind it.

 

Padme is flawed just as all the other characters in the prequels are. She is an idealist with a strong moral center, but she's plagued with a savior complex which draws her into a co-dependent relationship with a deeply troubled man. Similarly to Anakin, her greatest weakness is the flipside of her greatest strength. But whereas Anakin is unable to let go of Padme under any circumstances, Padme is eventually able to let go of Anakin when it becomes clear he's chosen once and for all to go down a path she can't follow.