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PT Defending Anakin and the Tusken

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by andresfelix, Aug 7, 2014.

  1. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    The whole point is to be complicated for various reasons, the most evident is that Anakin here commited a real vendetta, a revenge that is not something to be praised but still is understandable while still being plain awful but he knows it. Padme's reaction shows it: while she is horrified in the first seconds after Anakin's confession she sees what he is passing through and she is trying to help him, to soothe him. The situation in Mustafar is completelly different (while Padme still is trying to save him as she always does).
     
  2. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    Padme is borderline enabling Anakin. Until Mustafar.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  3. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    I agree that Lucas does use this scene as a turning point for Anakin's character in AOTC, and also as a progression on his journey to becoming Darth Vader. Prior to this, Anakin comes across as an impetuous youth who might struggle with his temper, which isn't that unusual in an adolescent, but when he slaughters the Tusken Raiders he commits his first act of extreme violence and vengeance. The audience might find it understandable in the sense that we can sympathize with Anakin's loss of his mother and the rage and desire for vengeance that he felt over her abduction and torture, but it becomes a stepping stone for Anakin to commit the further acts of violence and vengeance that you mention: the execution of Dooku (the surrendered enemy), and then the murder of Mace, after which I think you are right that he felt he couldn't turn back, that he had made his decision for better or worse. Each choice in some way makes one easier to commit though we still get a sense of Anakin's wresting with his worst impulses throughout the Prequel Trilogy and can see how the traumas of his life have contributed to his fall, making it a tragic hero's journey of a gradual descent into darkness that to me for the most part succeeds in a way that tugs my heartstrings.

    I do feel like Anakin turned to Padme for comfort after the loss of his mother and his slaughter of the Tusken Raiders. In many ways, I feel like he transfers a lot of his love and need for a mother onto Padme throughout the Prequel Trilogy due to the separation from Shmi in PTM and death of Shmi in AOTC. Anakin definitely comes across to me as romantically interested in Padme for her beauty and bravery, but also seeking in her that unconditional love, acceptance, and comfort often associated with the mother figure. There is something sort of Freudian about their relationship in that way, at least to me. Honestly, I see Anakin very much as a character desperate for both a father figure (he finds two competing ones in Obi-Wan and Palpatine after Qui-Gon's death--he latches onto Qui-Gon so quickly in my opinion because before that the only father figure he probably had was Watto) and a mother figure to replace Shmi (whom he finds in Padme). To me, that explains a lot of Anakin's tragic choices and hangups. Psychoanalytic theory greatly influences my interpretation of the Prequel Trilogy in general, but that may be getting off-topic, so I apologize for that.
     
  4. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    No, that is an interesting theory. I never thought of the Padme/mother figure but it makes sense. Palpatine totally manipulated the lack of father figure in Anakin's life. He also planted a lot of the seeds that turned him against Obi Wan, which the ROTS book goes into in greater detail.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  5. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    Thank you. I'm glad that the theory is interesting to someone outside my own head and doesn't make me sound crazy[face_laugh]

    I just always felt like there was a gentleness about Padme especially in the way that she treated Anakin that reminded me of the archetypal mother figure. I think Anakin's subconscious linking of his mother and Padme also contributed to his fear of losing Padme and made him even more desperate to save her after he had his nightmare of her dying in childbirth in ROTS in my opinion. I found when I looked at Anakin's thoughts and actions through that psychoanalytic lens I could interpret ROTS in a deeper way that worked well for me.

    I absolutely agree with you that Palpatine manipulated the lack of a father figure in Anakin's life to great effect. Indeed I feel like it is his skillful ability to play the father figure who appears to provide unconditional love (while truly of course he does not do so, but Anakin tragically does not realize that) that allows him to tempt Anakin to the Dark Side in ROTS.

    To me taking a psychoanalytic approach helped me appreciate Anakin's need for both a father and mother figure, which in turn allowed me to appreciate TPM even more for the way it really established why and how Anakin became so desperate for these mother and father figures. All these made Anakin seem an even more tragic character to me, someone shaped by early childhood separations, absences, and traumas.
     
  6. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    It would be that way if Anakin indeed seek for Padme's help and soothing. But is not that at all: not in this scene and not in general. Anakin is already in love with Padme before AOTC but he loves the memory of her, he love the dream of her. And this would not change even if his mother was free . When they met he is scared and shy and for me is scared because the angel of his dreams could in the end become something different in real flesh. Only is not that at all, as he said to her , you are the same as I remember you. While the scene of the garage is crucial for the life of both characters, the active figure here is Padme. She came to bring him food but actually she deliberately came to bring him help and comfort: a soul food. Maybe she is not sure at that moment but she had already chosen him, although she said earlier that they shouldn't come closer to each other (and he respects that).
    And here Anakin is isolated, alone with his pain but the interesting thing is why he is in the garage. He could choose any other place in the farm to stay alone. But he had chosen the garage because there he has control. The machines are something that can be controlled and also the machines are something that can be fixed. Anakin knows that he lost control and he shoudn't and in the same that he can fix the broken part as he couldn't fix the wrongs they did to his mother. So here as I said, he stepped a one step apart from the right path. Huge step, but still he came back alone, by himself (I'm a Jedi, I know that I'm better than this).
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  7. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    Your insight is appreciated. We are talking about a tragic fall, of a hero who was the "poster boy" for the Clone Wars. Anakin was in the trenches fighting and winning the war and did not feel the Jedi Council was giving him the respect he deserved. Again the novel goes into this in greater detail.
     
  8. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Speaking of this while I was watching ROTS for the first time I saw why Palpatine succedeed to convince Anakin that he should embrace the Sith ways: apart for the obvious and main reason to save Padme. Is because the Sith wouldn't struggle to fight with their temper, they would use it. That's why Yoda explained to Luke that the Dark Side is the easy way. So in a way Palpatine said: come with me and embrace who you really are. Only is not that at all. This is not the real Anakin and as is shown in ROTJ real Anakin would fight against the darkness. But as a real person Anakin has flaws (unusual hero isn't it ;) ). The question is always how strongly he could resist to them. Here he is still trying to do that.
     
  9. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    You bring up some good and important points. I agree that Anakin doesn't actively go to Padme for comfort rather she is the one who offers it, and that does seem to be the general pattern of their relationship from TPM through to ROTS: she senses that he needs comforting and goes to him to provide it. I do think that Padme, who talks about her desire for a family and children in AOTC, might have at least subconsciously sought Anakin out to provide him with comfort because she likes being in that sort of motherly role and senses that he is someone in need of that motherly figure starting in TPM. I do think Anakin being so quick to confide in her and accept the comfort that she provides from TPM through ROTS suggests that he needs her filling that motherly role even without being consciously aware of it.

    I do think that there are different factors of Anakin's relationship with Padme beyond his identification with her as a mother figure. I also think that he feels a childish attraction to her from the moment he met her in Watts's shop, commenting that she looks like an angel. Then he maintains an idealized image of her, a dream of her as you say, throughout the years that they are separated between TPM and AOTC. I don't know if I would necessarily call that love since it is about an idealized image of Padme more than the reality of Padme, whom he doesn't see for ten years, but there is definitely that romantic component to their relationship. Anakin is certainly attracted to Padme in a way that one wouldn't be to one's mother or at least shouldn't be.

    I do agree with your interpretation of why Anakin goes to the garage. I absolutely think he goes there to fix things--to try to regain control--to fix machines in a way that he couldn't fix his mother and to regain the control he lost with the Tusken Raiders. I believe he even alludes to that with his remark to Padme about how he had always been good at fixing things. That element of the scene was extremely well and movingly done in my opinion.
     
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  10. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    Anakin was a hero who wore his heart and his emotions on his sleeve, and Sheev took full advantage of that.
     
  11. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Anakin doesn't just go to the garage for sentimental reasons, though Lucas may have implied some homage to ANH. In the Lars farm it's simply the only place where the tools are and machines are fixed. So why wouldn't Anakin, having no emotional attachments to the Lars family, go there for simple repairs? Besides it was probably the only place on the farm where he could have a private talk with Padmé, without attracting much attention.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  12. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    This is true — the Sentienlese people have two things working in their favor (1) they’re on an island and (2) world governments are telling outsiders to stay away. If you put them close to modern society and stripped away all the government warnings, we might see hostilities between them and the locals. Could they basically pull a Tusken Raider if given the opportunity? Who knows, and I doubt anyone would be willing to test it. :eek:
     
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  13. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Good point about there also being practical considerations why Anakin goes to the garage. Sometimes the psychological and symbolic reasons jump out at me first but the practical reasons also deserve attention.
     
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  14. Harbour

    Harbour Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 15, 2015
    I think its not just the pure theory so to speak. I watched PT many times and the points you made definitely had their reflections in these movies.
    The whole Freudian thing comes to me pretty natural given how abnormal Anakin's origin and abilities are. He is the prodigy that literally had no father and insanely gifted, so such emotional and mental stuff like his weird relationships with Padme, Palpatine, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan look essential.
    The same comes for Padme. It struck me at some point that she is very well may have some motherly feelings towards little boy in TPM, and then, after she witnessed the life, struggle and suffering of padawan, towards attractive young man. All those memes about her liking kids are the surface for pretty substantial (to me) reality - she really had some need to protect and comfort Anakin in TPM and AotC. This need later crossed with romantic feelings and care for husband in AotC and ROTS.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  15. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    As a newcomer to this forum, I first have to say that I love how I can have conversations here about Freud and Star Wars. There aren't many other places where that would be possible, so I'm really enjoying my conversations here:)

    Anakin's abnormal origins of having no father was definitely one of the first things that put my onto a Freudian interpretation of Anakin's character and the Prequels in general since to me it really called attention to Anakin's lack of a father figure and helped explain his seeking of father figures in a variety of characters (Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine). In TPM, we are introduced to Anakin, a boy literally without a father figure, which creates the potential for an extremely magnified need for father figures.

    I agree with you that a similar Freudian dynamic seems to be at play in Anakin's relationship with Padme. In TPM, we see how difficult the separation from his mother was but also see Padme in an almost motherly role comforting him on the ship to Coruscant. No wonder Anakin would begin to latch onto her as sort of surrogate mother in those circumstances. In AOTC, we see in Anakin's nightmares that his continued separation from his mother has weighed heavy on Anakin psychologically and then those nightmares are made reality when Shmi dies at the Tusken camp. After this loss of his mother, it is understandable that when Padme offers him comfort, he might subconsciously again associate her with the comfort, love, and acceptance of the mother figure he has just lost with Shmi's death. Then when Anakin gets these nightmares of Padme's suffering and death in ROTS, of course he associates them with similar nightmares of the loss of his mother since he has already subconsciously linked Padme with his mother as this figure of unconditional love, acceptance, and endless comfort.

    With Padme herself, I definitely think that she had motherly feelings toward Anakin and TPM and wanted to comfort him in the way a mother might since she knew that he had just been separated from his mother. I don't think at that point she was attracted to Anakin in any sort of romantic way, but I believe that in AOTC, she finds herself attracted to Anakin romantically, but can't fully reconcile those feelings with the motherly ones she had for him in the past nor with the complications any relationship between them would pose for their careers. I think that's a major reason why the attention Anakin pays to her in AOTC makes her uncomfortable initially, but why in the end, she does come around to wanting a romantic relationship with him. She never quite manages to find a way to reconcile the complications of their relationship presents for their careers in either AOTC or ROTS, but she can't resist the attraction she feels for him. Nor can she erase her internal desire to be a mother for him, comforting him whenever he is distressed, and trying to be accepting of even his worst traits and trying to be that source of unconditional love and support in his life. It all ties together for me in this way, even if I do understand that others will have different interpretations of all this.
     
  16. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 30, 2017
    [​IMG]


    Stone cold killer
     
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  17. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Possibly, from a certain point of view. To me, enraged caped bad-ass avenger fits better. No matter what, Anakin did really kick ass!:D Besides, this is the future DARTH VADER, one of the most iconic villains in movie history! So what he does is completely in character. Whatever one may think of his revenge against the Tuskens, from that scene onward it becomes clear the Anakin is a guy you better not mess with.;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
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  18. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 18, 2017
    It's an interesting scenario where there is an atrocity in response to an atrocity and while that's not right, there isn't much of a legitimate justice system in the area. Also interesting is that the official Jedi response to that lack of a justice system seems to be to therefore stay far away from that kind of area, if there isn't a legitimate justice system to be able to respond they should just avoid the area, hence their reluctance to go to Taooine (or maybe anyplace outside of the Republic) and once there reluctance to try to make small changes like free a small number of slaves, better to try to slowly encourage the ruling Hutts to join the Republic or otherwise reform their system.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
  19. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fiendish Fanfic & SWTV Manager, Interim Tech Admin star 6 Staff Member Administrator

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    Jun 19, 2019
    @CLee, I agree that there doesn't seem to be much of a legitimate justice system in place on Tatooine (probably thanks to it being run by the gangster Hutts), which probably encourages vigilante justice such as Anakin meted out to the Tusken Raiders who tortured and killed his mother.

    As to the Jedi, I think they tended to interpret their role as being to serve the Republic, so I believe that was why they didn't intervene much on Tatooine, which is described as being outside the Republic in the Prequels. At least that has been my interpretation of how the Prequel Jedi operated.
     
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  20. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Depending on your POV, yes.

    The Hutts/Settlers - “We don’t care. Kill however many you want.”

    The Jedi/Republic - “OMFG WHY!?”

    The Jedi in particular never intervened simply because it wasn’t in their mandate. It was Hutt space, and they’d be very interested indeed to find out why the Jedi were meddling in their affairs. If it were to free slaves (i.e., their big income) then it’d be war. Sure, the Republic could win the war, but why start war?

    Perhaps, then, this shows the hypocrisy Anakin talked about. The Republic valued liberty and freedom but yet refuses to go help the people who needed it the most, the people in the Outer Rim who lived in Hutt Space. To him, the Republic was all, “Whaaa, but fighting a war with the Hutts is haaaard. We’ll just let them practice slavery and keep to our nice little bubble here. :3”
     
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  21. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    I'm not sure it would have been much of a war. Is Tatooine even in "Hutt space" or does the clan only control that one planet? Do we know how many Hutts there are? Do they even have fighters? In the movies and (as far as I know) novels nothing much is said about the Hutts. If it's just one clan controlling ONE planet then it would have been very easy for the Republic to send a few Jedi or clone troopers there to end slavery.
    In ROTJ all it took was ONE Jedi whose training wasn't even finished, a blind guy, Lando, Chewie and a girl in chains, with maybe a little help from R2, to destroy Jabba's clan.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the TCW movie the Hutts control enough territory and "space lanes" that the Republic is eager to get Jabba's permission to travel through Hutt Space - that it might change the course of the war.

    So, no, the Hutts don't just control "only one planet".

    In both Legends and Newcanon, Hutt Space was a hefty slice of the galaxy.
     
  23. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    OK, I didn't know that. Then of course things may have been slightly more difficult. Well, I was judging only from the PT and OT, never watched TCW.
     
  24. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 19, 2019
    In TPM when Obi Wan and Qui Gon suggested landing on Tatooine, saying that it's beyond the reach of the Trade Federation, Padme's pilots were skeptical, asking how can they be sure. When Qui Gon told them that it is controlled by the Hutts, both pilots immediately objected, stating that the Hutts are gangsters. So they were aware of the dangerous reputation of the Hutts, but didn't already know that they controlled Tatooine. I think this implies that the Hutts have control over many planetary systems.
     
  25. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    OK, thanks for clearing things up!
     
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