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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Defending Anakin and the Tusken

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by andresfelix, Aug 7, 2014.

  1. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    @Sith Lord 2015And, while Jabba may have died, another Hutt (i.e., a rival) would’ve just slithered in to fill in the void. If anything, Luke and Friends™ did their work for them. :D

    @Iron_lord — Indeed, even in the era of the Empire, Vader would have many dealings with Jabba whenever he wanted to conduct business in Hutt Space.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
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  2. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    Could Jabba have consolidated control of the Hutts by that point? Or at on least Tatooine? Maybe their isn't a Hutt or other Crime organization at that time to fill the void on Tatooine. Not one that can stand up to the farmers and other honest people?
     
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  3. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    There are probably thousands of Hutts out there. Even if Jabba was the only one on Tatooine, his death would create a power vacuum, which would result in a war between bandits until another Hutt comes in and re-establishes control.
     
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  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    But by the time of the OT, is there such a thing as Hutt space?
    In TPM, Tatooine was not part of the republic and Jabba was basically ruling it. He appeared in public functions and what not.
    In the OT, he is a local crime lord instead.

    Based on the films, the Hutts no longer rule Tatooine, the empire controls it.
    Probably there isn't much of an imperial presence there but enough to be noticed.

    So Jabba no longer works as the official ruler, he is now fully a gangster. Quite likely he has greased the palms of a few imperial officials so that he can work without much interference.
    And likely some imperial make use of Jabba or the Hutts when they want some under the table job done.

    But the empire seemed to have expanded from what the old republic was and conquered new territory.
    Would they just leave Hutt space alone?

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    In the recent "Darth Vader" series, there is this.

    Spoiler tags for size.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It mostly appears that Jabba and the Hutts still have control, but they're aware that their interests are best served working with the Empire than against it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
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  6. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    This is just a comic, not canon. To me, the idea of the Empire even dealing with Hutts is ridiculous. Why would they? During the OT era the Empire is the single most powerful entity in the galaxy. Why would they even bother to negotiate with outer-rim gangsters when they can destroy entire planets? I'm just not buying it. The Empire could easily take any planet they wanted. What ships or army did the Hutts have to resist all the Star Destroyer and TIE armadas, legions of stormtroopers etc.? This is just another case of EU contradiction of canon. At that time the Empire was practically all-powerful. Their only enemy was the Alliance. But a few outer-rim gangsters???? The Empire could have wiped them all out within hours.
    Vader negotiating with Jabba? Ludicrous. A couple of Star Destroyers would have dealt nicely with the whole Hutt clan. Another case of the EU totally ignoring canon. Makes the Empire look incredibly weak, which is certainly not Lucas' intention. It was Luke who finally defeated the Emperor. But Sidious would never have allowed a clan of gangsters to interfere. He had the power to wipe out all obstacles. What he didn't realize was that Vader still felt compassion for his son.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    TCW established that the Hutts are an empire in their own right. And the Empire has just lost the Death Star.

    "Canon" now that Lucas has sold the franchise, is the movies plus TCW, plus everything SW, created after the sale.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  8. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Sorry, never watched TCW. I consider the six movies to be ultimate canon. The Hutts may have some sort of gangster empire, but how could they ever match the actual Empire with the clone army and all that firepower? I'm not following you there. TCW takes place between AOTC and ROTS if I'm correct. So where did the Empire lose a Death Star at that point? After ANH there is nothing to indicate the Hutts had much influence over the Empire. Sorry, if it's EU it doesn't really count.
    Sure, that's one way of looking at it. I'm kind of old school, and only accept Lucas' works as real canon. I don't care about the legal aspects, just the artistic ones. Disney may make another dozen more SW movies, but for me the original SIX are the only ones that really count. Lucas invented SW, now someone else has taken over the franchise, but I will never accept their products as the real thing. It was his vision, his story, and I think it's a shame that he no longer has any control over it.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Vader's conversation with Jabba, in the quoted comic, takes place shortly after ANH.
    And TCW, was very much "Lucas' work". He even voiced a character - Baron Papanoida.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  10. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    In any case that comic isn't actual canon. It makes Vader (and the Empire) appear ridiculously weak, which really contradicts the movies. In the OT movies the Empire is strong, and I really don't think they would have bothered to negotiate with a mere crime gang. So what if they lost the DS? They still have a huge armada of star destroyers. Not enough to subdue an outer-rim gangster clan? Sorry, still not buying it.
    Agreed, I just never got into it. Maybe I'll watch it some day, but it's just not on the same level as the movies. The characters look fake, and I just can't take the show seriously. I watched a few episodes, and I liked some of them, but on the whole the style just doesn't fit into the saga. How could it? It's an animated TV show as opposed to epic movies meant to be watched on the big screen. I never managed to reconcile the different kinds of styles into the complete saga.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Palpatine sees gangsters as useful tools. After all, the Sith are basically gangsters of a sort themselves.
     
  12. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Sure, I could certainly imagine Sidious using gangsters like the Hutts as "tools", but not view them as adversaries. A true Sith would never stoop to a level where he would deal with gangsters on an equal basis. Sidious and Vader may have used the Hutts like they used the TF, but I honestly don't think they would have seriously negotiated with them. If Jabba in any way turned out to be an obstacle the Emperor would simply have eliminated him. At least the unscrupulous Emperor we know from the movies. I don't know the comics and I don't know much of the EU. But judging from the movies a Sith would never beg for cooperation. They rule and destroy everything that prevents them from having absolute control. I can see how Jedi might be seen as a true threat, but a crime clan on some remote part of the galaxy? Not really. That's completely out of character for Sidious and Vader as we know them from the movies. They don't negotiate, they give conditions, and if those conditions aren't met by their "adversaries" then it's the end of the story for them. That is the Empire we see in the movies.
    I don't see the Sith as gangsters at all. They are an order with strict rules just like the Jedi, only on the opposing side of the Force. They are even more arrogant about power and ruling, and to me it's unthinkable they would even consider dealing with some crime lord like Jabba. Sidious doesn't negotiate, he gives orders. If those orders aren't obeyed then that's too bad for those who oppose him, crime lord or not.
     
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    And Vader's not begging in the comic - he's threatening.
     
  14. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Sure he's threatening. But still he is negotiating and asking obedience to the Emperor who already has absolute power in the galaxy. I don't know the comic, but still it seems out of character for Vader to even talk to Jabba this long when he simply could have his troops force Jabba to unconditionally obey all the Emperor's conditions or else just kill him. I know it's more interesting this way, but movie Vader wouldn't have had the patience to deal with a gangster. He would have told him what to do, or else...
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    At the start of the scene, Vader's killed two of Jabba's guards, and he Force-chokes Jabba. The scene is after all the violence is over. Vader has already given the "do what I say or else" ultimatums. Jabba's agreed to what Vader wants - now he's simply trying to save face a little.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
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  16. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    If the Emperor commanded that he act civilly, then he’d do well to act civilly. As Iron_Lord said, what we’re reading is after Vader killed two of Jabba’s troops and Force-Choked him as a way of saying, ‘I can easily kill you if you don’t do what I say.’ He already asserted dominance over Jabba, so both parties are now hashing out some kind of deal with Jabba, obviously, trying not to incite Vader’s wrath.

    Re-read that quoted comic. At no point does Vader come off as begging to Jabba. In fact, it seems like it’s Jabba that’s trying to placate Vader and be all charming and buddy-buddy. He knows the Empire could destroy them in weeks, if not days. He knows that, and he doesn’t want that so he’ll do whatever it takes to (1) save face in front of his own guys who just saw him get manhandled by Vader and (2) not get killed by this Dark Lord.

    Vader is in complete command the entire time. He doesn’t need to threaten Jabba anymore as he already just did that — he’s just reaffirming to Jabba that they can do this deal, but it’ll be handled strictly by the Empire. Also, keep in mind that this is just after the Death Star exploded so the Emperor is keeping a firm eye on Vader’s every move so he’s gotta tread very carefully.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  17. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    OK, I get what you mean. Maybe it's because I didn't read the whole comic and saw this short scene out of context that I misjudged it.
     
  18. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 1, 2012
    In the comic, Vader is negotiating with Jabba because he's working against the Emperor.

    Minor correction: Lucas played Baron Paranoida in ROTS, but didn't voice him in TCW. I was disappointed by that.
     
  19. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    I'm not a person who gives much credence to the comics either, @Sith Lord 2015 , but even just from the movies I always got the impression that there existed entities such as the Mining Guild and Jabba's criminal empire which were large and powerful enough to still be on negotiating terms with the Empire. It's not so much that the Empire couldn't crush them, and more that the time and effort required to do so wouldn't be worth it at this point in time. But just like everyone else, those entities are operating on borrowed time, though they may be too deluded to realize it. The Empire intends to subsume everything and everyone in the galaxy eventually.

    And Jabba really doesn't seem to be as in control as he used to be. Case in point: the Imperial military presence on Tatooine during the search for the droids in A New Hope. I don't think Jabba ever would have allowed such a thing during the days of the Republic. Jabba's entire business revolves around evading Imperial trade laws. You think he wants Imperial enforcers crawling all over his domain, observing all the criminal activity going on and scaring all the lowlifes who make his illicit economy function? No, but he has to let it happen.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
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  20. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    True enough. But since the days of the Empire Jabba's hedonistic greedy way of life may in some way be restricted. The Empire ruled with an iron fist, and if Jabba had even been a minor annoyance to the Empire I'm pretty sure he and the whole clan would have been simply and cleanly wiped out. I guess Jabba was smart enough to appreciate the situation, that's how he survived. But a direct confrontation with the Empire would not have done him any good.
     
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 10, 2011
    I don't know about that. Jabba is clearly a minor annoyance, given that he employs what is probably a substantial number of smugglers whose entire job it is to skirt Imperial customs laws. Remember that Han dumped his shipment of spice because he saw an Imperial cruiser in the vicinity.

    The way I take it is that Jabba and the Empire have sort of a tenuous understanding: You send out your smugglers, and we'll bust them whenever we come across them. Other than that, we'll leave you alone. But don't push your luck too far.

    My impression is that Jabba is too powerful for the Empire to contest without difficulty, especially with their focus now on the raging rebellion. But once the Rebels are crushed, I think the Empire will turn their attention to him and others like him. There's some irony in the fact that Jabba is temporarily united with the Empire in his vendetta against Han Solo, when in the long term Han Solo and his Rebel friends may be the only thing keeping Jabba alive. Jabba really should have just bargained with Luke.
     
  22. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    It suits the Empire to have a (relatively) reasonable centralised figure running the major criminal circles as they know they can lean on him if they need to - take him out and you now have umpty-nine jumped up wannabes to deal with instead.
     
  23. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2015
    This is one of the reasons I dislike the idea of Darth Maul's appearance in Solo. I too think that it dilutes the concept of a dark side adherent like Darth Maul to have him portrayed as a crime syndicate leader. It just doesn't compute with me that he would lower himself to associating with criminal scum. He was a devotee to a religious order.
     
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  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    He was a crime syndicate leader in TCW long before Solo.

    The way I see it, the Sith have long been affiliated with organised crime. They are criminals in the eyes of the Jedi - and need to use the same tactics as criminals to survive and avoid being apprehended.
    They're a religious order devoted to extreme selfishness - that's pretty much the textbook criminal mindset.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  25. Bob Effette

    Bob Effette Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2015
    Yes I know he was in TCW. I tend to view the Sith and the criminal fraternity of the Star Wars universe as two separate elements, with differing motives and pursuit of different goals. I like not to think of somebody like Maul for example as being concerned with material gain, corruption or greed, only a pure devotion to the Dark Side and helping his master pursue his single aim of Galactic Domination. The criminals and syndicates to me operate at a different echelon.