PT Defending Anakin and the Tusken

Right. But the Jedi recognize from the start the weakness in Anakin because of his attachment. It’s dangerous to give Anakin the training that lets him fully use his powers. Do you think Anakin is thinking when he murders the creatures who abducted, tortured, and murder his mother? She’s the exact bullseye of his attachment weakness.

Anakin isn’t thinking. He’s on autopilot. It’s anger and instinct and training that take over. His emotions take over and because of his training he reacts with unstoppable lethal action. Afterwards Anakin feels horrible about what he did. But instead of taking time to reflect on that and accepting the loss of his mother to move forward as a Jedi, Anakin transfers his emotional attachment to Padme. If anything it’s now a stronger attachment. An attachment Anakin will use the full might of his abilities to not let end.

Now the Jedi never would have sent Anakin to Tatooine. That happened on its own. And yes it’s Anakin’s fault for taking the action. But the Jedi had rules in place because they know this is what happens training someone who is too old to be a Jedi. Anakin’s want for justice or revenge seems like a natural reaction in the moment. But his Force power training let him act on that reaction

I’m a big fan of the Jedi. I think they are right most of the time. And they were right the first time with Anakin - don’t train him. But I guess after he nearly single handedly saved Naboo by blowing up the droid control ship and shutting down the droid army, the Jedi recognized Anakin could really be the ‘Chosen One’ so they bent the rules and decided to let him be trained.

He should have been Yoda or Mace Windu’s padawan. If you break the rules, go all the way. This kid is a special case, treat him that way.

I’m not saying what if here. Maybe this would not have happened if he wasn’t trained. Maybe if qui-gin wasn’t... I’m saying the Jedi had time tested rules for a reason because Force powers are no joke. They can do great good but they can also do terrible evil. The Jedi rules are to keep the Jedi on the path of good and balance.

 

Anakin was unique, however. I think we agree that, no matter what, Ankin required specific attention. I agree with the Jedi in their position that younglings must be below a certain age in order to qualify for training. This position is sound for the overwhelming majority of younglings they may encounter. Anakin is not a part of this majority and the council failed in that they did not properly respect Anakin's uniqueness.

I think the council was wrong initially and they were correct in their decision to train Anakin. I believe the degree of Anakin's power demands he be trained as his potential needs to be channeled. Leaving Anakin to his own devices sounds, to me, like a terrible gamble. It's entirely possible an untrained, less powerful version of Anakin would still have been corrupted by the dark side.

What about remaining untrained would have caused Anakin to be less prone to slaughtering villagers?

If the Jedi had Anakin sent back to Tatooine, do we think Sidious would have simply left him alone?

 

What happened is what happened. It’s a tragedy on many levels, for many reasons, and for many people. Under the Empire most of the galaxy is effected for the worse. I’m not blaming the Jedi. Just saying they knew what the risks were. Anakin was better protected in the ranks of the Jedi than if he was discovered and let go.

Really Anakin’s destiny to become a great Force user was sealed as soon as he crossed paths with Qui-Gon.

 

“Pain, suffering, death I feel. Something terrible has happened. Young Skywalker is in pain. Terrible pain.”

He knew something bad was happening, but didn’t know the details. Only that it concerned Anakin. For all he knew, Anakin was captured and being tortured.

EDIT: Not sure if canon anymore, but when Anakin returned to the Temple, he was asked about it and he simply said he found out his mother died. They didn’t press him further.

 

Well Jinn knew about it during AOTC , but apparently he never said anything to Yoda when he trained him to Force Ghost .

Tuskens arent a particularly friendly bunch by their nature.

Also remember they were sniper firing at the Pod Racers trying to kill them in TPM,and they also attempted to kill Ezra and woud've succeeded had not Darth Maul saved Ezra's life.


Humans and Tuskens can form certain uneasy alliances via communicating and empathizing with the Tusken Raiders but those are more the exceptions than the rule even in the EU. Also in the EU there was a kinda "offworld' Tusken group found in the Jedi Knight games called "Grave Tuskens", they were a group of marauders and mercenaries working for a Hutt and Jerec. The old Dark Horse comic series Outlander featuing Ki Adi Mundi featured an exile Jedi Sharad Hett becoming a war leader of the Tuskens. I think Jabba was responsible for the war between humans and Tuskens.

The Mandalorian has tried to kinda change their perception with a degree of humanization first time in live action, but thats not wholly really true either since Cobb Vanth and Mos Pelgo people had bad dealings with Tuskens which were highly negative and it took a great deal for both parties to form such an alliance and largely thanks to Djarin who had dealings with Tuskens before. Also the Krayt dragon was an enemy to both parties and so the circumstances was one of join together or face extinction or flight. Was difficult and rather similar to like Djarin getting a deal with the Jawas in Season I and that was largely thanks to Kuiil.

 

I'm surprised in all those 25 years the Tusken didn't counterattack. Sure, they are split up into many tribes, but I seriously doubt they were 100% isolated. Someone MUST have found out about the destruction of an entire village. My guess is the tribes may have been hostile towards others, and other tribes may have been cool with having one enemy less.
Still, why didn't the Lars family expect the Tusken to come back and take revenge? Shouldn't they have been extra careful after what Anakin did? After all they may have known vaguely about the massacre, but not that there were no survivors or witnesses. I doubt Anakin or Padmé told them.
Shouldn't the Lars's have made the homestead more secure, put up artillery or whatever? I would have.

 

In the old EU (more specifically in Tatooine Ghost), the Tuskens are said to blame the massacre on a vengeful spirit being. This leads them to offer fearful sacrifices in order to keep it away from the rest of them.

 

It's implied in TG that somebody must have seen the massacre and survived.

Kitster, after being rescued:

"The Tuskens had a story dance the night we arrived," Kitster explained. "I already knew that Anakin had returned with Shmi's body, so when they dropped into sword stances and started to leap around making buzzing sounds, it was obvious whom they were imitating."

 

I don’t think they knew exactly where Anakin came from. For all they knew, he was some sand-demon summoned by Shmi/was Shmi’s enraged spirit. But yeah, those that survive would definitely want to take measures to ensure the demon never returned.

 

That does make sense. I like that explanation. However, did the Lars family know that? Would they risk their lives on the Tusken being superstitious? I'd be more fearful of a counterattack if I were them.
In ANH the Tusken also believed Ben to be some spirit and fled. But they didn't stay away long. As Ben himself said, "they are easily scared away but will soon return in greater numbers".
But of course Anakin's massacre is on a completely different scale. No wonder they were more scared of him than of a slow-moving cloaked figure imitating the cry of some animal.
Who is Kitster btw.? Seems the book is worth reading, though I'm normally not a big EU fan.

 

Kitster is Anakin's human buddy in TPM:

 

Yes, it is. It's set shortly before the Thrawn trilogy. On a mission for the Republic, Leia, Han, Chewie & Threepio go to Tatooine. And Leia makes a few discoveries about the father she still refuses to acknowledge.

 

Reminds me of all the Kitster is Boba Fett theories when TPM came out.

 

About ANH and the Sand People,

The novelization says that there was an uneasy truce after the settlers had taken a very bloody retribution and now the Sand People mostly kept inside their territory. The conflict had been going on for a while and as the novelization said, blood had been spilt on both sides and not always with cause.

So the idea that what Anakin did in AotC was the first time ever that a whole camp of Sand People had been wiped out is unlikely and the ANH novelization pretty much says the opposite.
What is does say is that the Sand People took notice when the settlers struck back hard and backed down and kept mostly to their own territory.

Obi-Wan scared them by making a noise like a Kryat dragon. So they did not think he was some demon.
Also, if they thought he was some demon, why would they run for help and then come back to fight?
Seems like wasting lives.

About Sand People being superstitious.
These are people with at most a mid 19th century level of tech and they deal with people with ray guns and space ships.
If they are in any way superstitious, why would they not think that these people in their "Chariots of Fire" are gods?

If they did think that at first but found out later that they were not gods but mortal and could be killed.
Why have some legend about a demon?
They are out-classed tech wise and they must know that. The settlers can fly over and drop bombs on their camps.
But they also know that the settlers can be killed.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

It is very funny, but events of ANH occur 23 years after AOTC.

 

If I remember correctly, the passage in the original Alan Dean Forster novelization merely says that the Tuskens killed a few settlers every year, and the humans killed a few Tuskens every year, and both sides didn't always have a legitimate reason. It's possible a later version of the story, written to include later material from AOTC, might include references to the specific response you refer to.
As for the Tuskens, I'm sure they could understand landspeeders and spacecraft and blasters. But some unseen being with a sword of light and the ability to move objects without touching them wiping out a whole village in a matter of minutes is something else again. Like much of the galaxy, they've probably never seen a real Jedi, much less one in "kill everyone" mode. It's easy to see them consider it not the work of a man, but a demon from Hell.

 

I didn't write that by the way. Apparently the demon theory is from Tatooine Ghost. But I really like the idea.

 

Exactly. They’re familiar with Krayt dragons and settlers with blasters and spaceship. What they aren’t familiar with a Jedi in the middle of a psychotic ‘kill everyone’ episode. How do you fight against a derange being that can move things without touching them and cut your comrades in half with a light sword? A being that attacked you in your own settlement — where you thought you were safe, and had no reason to think you’d be attacked. And no time to consolidate and come up with a plan beyond ‘try not to die’. A plan that’s failing rapidly as more and more of your comrades are killed by this...this thing that can’t even be touched. Then, just like that, this deranged entity is gone, never to be seen again.

Humans in our world, throughout the ages, have come up with stories to try and explain what they couldn’t understand. So it’s reasonable the Tuskens would do the same, even if Tatooine Ghost isn’t canon. It’s...just natural, y’know? How do you explain something like that? How do you come to terms with it? You weave it through as a story. Look at Salem for an example. A bunch of kids start acting crazy and the adults logically conclude it was the work of Satan. Look at the stories of so-called ‘UFO sightings’ in the 1940s/50s. They see strange things flying in the air and conclude it’s alien coming to visit us. Hell, look at every single ghost story out there. Strange things happen in a home and it’s the work of some demon/poltergeist/restless soul of a deceased individual.

The Tuskens are no different. They cast Anakin as a demon because prior interactions with settlers showed that they were not capable of what Anakin was doing. They knew what the settlers would use to fight. Anakin? No clue.

 

The novelization I have is from 1977 so I would think it is the original.
And it has a line about there being a truce of sorts after the settlers having taken a very bloody revenge on the Sand People and this truce was kept as long as neither side violated it. So the Sand people kept to their territory and the settlers kept to theirs. Luke, by going into Sand People territory, put himself at risk.

How would people with mid 19th century tech defend against a B52 bomber dropping a nuke on them?
The Sand People are totally outclassed tech-wise against the settlers. The settlers have ships and bombs and could destroy whole camps with little effort.

And again, the Sand People were into superstition, then seeing people with ray guns and "chariots of fire" would likely make them think "gods".
But if they have later learned that these are not gods, just people with tech, why would they think some guy with a flaming sword being anything other than a guy with tech.
And that is assuming anyone was left alive which the film says otherwise.

The AotC movie makes it clear that Anakin killed EVERYONE. There was none left alive that saw him.
So other Sand People could just know that the camp had all been killed. And assuming someone came to that camp within say a week or so, before the bodies had decayed or been eaten, all they would see is that they were cut by a weapon that Sand People might not know about.
Any later, the bodies would not tell them much and I doubt the Sand People have CSI.

And if you are less advance tect-wise, what would be more impressive, a flaming sword or a lightning stick that can kill at range?

There is nothing in the films that suggests that Sand People have never seen a Jedi before. Given that Jedi have been around for about 25 000 years then odds are that they would have seen one at some point.

And again, IF the Sand People have made up this whole "Demon" thing and think Obi-wan is that "Demon" in ANH, why would they come back in greater numbers?
Obi-Wan scares them. TEMPORARILY, but they will come back with more people.
If they think he is some demon that can't be killed, why would they do that?
Why waste their own lives in battle against some foe that they can not hope to defeat?

The ANH novelization says that Obi-Wan made the sound of a Kryat Dragon, a dangerous foe but one that the Sand People knew about and could fight given enough numbers.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Nor is it in the films that they DID see one. 25,000 years or not, maybe the Jedi simply had no reason to go to a backwater planet like Tatooine? And even if they did, who says one ever entered Tusken territory? And even if a Tusken saw a Jedi once some hundreds of years back, it would probably have looked to them like some robed guy walking around, much like Ben, nothing special. And if there were no lightsaber action involved, I doubt that guy would be remembered generations later. Why would he?

 

Never said they thought Obi-Wan was a demon. The demon thing is attributed to Anakin.

Though I do agree with you that according to the movies, Anakin left no survivors to tell the tale and construct him as a hellish sand-demon.

 

True. Tatooine Ghost trying to retcon it as "he thinks he left no survivors but he missed some" is perhaps a little presumptuous.


Given that it's a Legends book, and given that a Tatooine tribe in Legends is led by a Jedi (first Sharad Hett then A'sharad Hett) it could possibly be rationalised with:


"the tribe that found the bodies, all marked with lightsaber cuts, was Sharad's tribe. They've all seen him using his lightsaber and know exactly what it does to the bodies of beings he kills. So they all knew exactly what had happened. That's why they jump around a lot, buzzing, in lightsaber stances, when they perform rituals at that site."


With Kitster and Leia having jumped to erroneous conclusions about some member of the tribe having witnessed the incident and decided that Anakin was a sand demon.

 

He's a sand demon who hates sand, cause it gets everywhere.

 

Expert opinion #1
"Would you wrap your arms around [them] to give a big sloppy kiss? Or would you have blown [their] brains out?"
- Will Teasle ("First Blood")

Expert opinion #2
"What do I think of humans? I don't, really. When you were alive, did you think about cows? Heh... ya know, if one got killed, I bet you didn't cry, but, ya know, you're not out there slaughterin' them for sport, either."
- Jack ("Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines")

 

Don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.