-deleted thread-

Well, it will let me post something short. So I'm going to try this in pieces.

Well, yeah, that is a valid approach.

Consider this, though: Del-Ray draws from a pool of proven talent who has hot writing careers NOW. Those people started YEARS ago writing their own original fiction, getting published in magazines, winning contests, sending out work and getting rejected by agents, publishers, and on and on for YEARS to get built up to where they are now ... bestselling authors who are proven to be able to sell a book just on their name alone. Which seems to be all that LFL wants writing for them just now.

In ten years, will SW be as hot as it is now? I doubt it. It will be like the late 80's again, where everybody just kind of forgot about it.

Oh, and one way some of those Big Name Authors got where they are today, I'll bet ... was winning contests.

Oh! Except for one. One certain author's first book was a work of ST FAN FICTION. It became the first ever ST bestseller and launched that person's career. She's done three SW books, BTW ... the Han Solo trilogy. I'm sure you know her name.

This person could never do that today, because the publishing houses that produce ST and SW books ... WON'T READ FAN FICTION.

That said,

 

(read in the cultured tenor of C-3PO) Oh my.

I must admit when I posted this topic last night, I didn't quite intend for it to go down this particular road.

The reasons being:

1.) LFL will never read us, because it is afraid of being SUED.

2.) LFL thinks, more than likely, that we are TRASH.

(See comment in first post regarding "overweight/living in mother's basement/absorbed in silly fantasy because we can't deal with real life.")

Guys, there's a lot of BAD fan fic out there. LFL knows this. Spend money and effort sorting through it all when it is technically a copyright violation??? If they were willing to do that, the people I am about to tell you about wouldn't have been barred out, and would have had a chance at being published again.

Once upon a time, the SW Adventure Journal published stories from first-time-in-print authors. Some of the authors featured in that "Tales from the MEC"?? FAN FIC AUTHORS. The reason they slipped in was that the editor of that journal used to come down here to Sci-Con every year and got to know some of these writers, who then sent him work. When LFL got wind of it ... they didn't like it. So, the "previously published authors only, and the bigger the name the better" edict was born.

Folks, I just don't think we're ever going to combat that attitude with a petition or some such. THAT is why I started this thread.

If someone here wants to somehow start a movement to directly ask/persuade LFL to read us, feel free, but what I want to talk about here is something different.

Everybody seems to think I am saying, "Enter contests that are run for fan fic," or, "We need more contests that read fan fic." That's not what I'm saying. (Well, we do, but that wasn't my main point.)What I'm saying is, "Since fan fic isn't treated as being worth anyone's effort to run a contest for, why don't we enter existing contests like everybody else?"

Everyone keeps citing what's happened with fan art and fan films. Let's look at that a little more closely.

How did fan films get the legitimacy they now have, in the first place?? Because people like Kevin Rubio took the initiative, and went out and proved they could make a quality film, first. THEN it got word of mouth, THEN LFL took a look and said, "Hmmm, maybe these things aren't that bad after all."

How did fan art get the legitimacy it now has, in the first place?? Because people went out and proved they could do quality art, first. THEN it got word of mouth, THEN LFL took a look and said, "Hmm, maybe these things aren't that bad after all."

There is evidence to suggest that fan writing CAN be given a chance. Look at Nathan P. Butler. He did the SW Timeline Gold, pro authors started using it for their work, THEN it got word of mouth. He put out fan audio dramas that got a lot of, once again, GOOD WORD OF MOUTH. He put up SW Fanworks. THEN someone at Dark Horse Comics found themselves in a tight spot, and gave him a job. Now he's got his name in red letters here.

What's ridiculous is that, even in TV writing, new writers get jobs by writing "spec scripts" for shows already in production. Someone I know is writing a "Desperate Housewives" right now. The whole idea is to show these scripts around to agents and even producers of OTHER shows, and that's how they get noticed! Nobody puts it aside as fan fiction, something that comes with a bad name attached; or says, "We won't read that, it's not for a show we have legal rights to produce, so why waste our time? We're busy enough as it is." But we who write prose don't have the same opportunities that people in just about all other forms of media would get -- we used to, but we haven't had them for decades.

more ...

 

The point being, if you put the cart before the horse, and start demanding legitimacy before you've earned it, you just confirm your "Star Wars Kid" image rather than give people a reason to revisit their thoughts about that image they have in their minds of you. There is a L-O-T of fan fic out there that doesn't recommend us, folks. There are a L-O-T of unsavory incidents with fan fic authors that do not recommend us. Those are the facts.

Now, our problem here is that no one will read us. They say, "Fine. If you can write, go make up your own stories and get published as an original, regular author." OK, but if we do that, we'll never get a chance to publish anything Star Wars -- even if we're good enough to deserve one. By the time we get there (if it ever happens -- my fiance will tell you, it takes talent AND good luck), it'll be years too late.

They've basically taken away our means to get legitimately noticed in a timely manner. Artists and filmmakers aren't contractually restrained from watching fan films and viewing fan art, but publishing executives *are* contractually restrained from reading fan fiction.

Because of the sleazy, immature, babyish image fan fic writers are cursed with, we have to write twice as well to be thought half as good. And even when we do this, even the ones who aren't contractually limited by LF won't read us. Their tables are piled high with other submissions they aren't legally prohibited to publish AND they consider us crap.

What do we do?

 

I'm game for this.

 

How do I show I have integrity? By submitting my work to a contest whose rules just might, might, accept it. If I win, I accept no money, and of course I certainly can't be published. I state that right up front in my entry information.

BUT. But, but, but, but, but. SOMEONE knowledgeable in the industry saw me. SOMEONE knowledgeable in the industry read me. SOME industry professional SOMEwhere knows I can write. Does that do anything big for me? Ehh, doubtful. The most I can hope for (should I have an idea for original fic) is that some industry professional, agent, whatever, says, "You know, this fan fic is really good, and if you have anything original, please submit it to my agency."

Hmm.

And someday, that person may hobnob with someone at Del-Ray, and this may come up: "Oh, that writer. Yes, she's very good. I found her at a writing contest; her entry was a Star Wars fan fic, believe it or not!"

Or, two industry professionals hobnob, and one says, "You know, we had a really good Star Wars fan fic submitted to our contest last year. It was in consideration for a prize ... too bad your company won't let us publish it." Or, "That person won our contest, but refused the prize money because she was afraid it would constitute a copyright violation."

Hmm.

I think that sort of word of mouth makes a lot better impression than a bunch of fans asking formally for something from LFL, with no earned testimonials from professionals whose opinons LFL would trust, to back them up. Don't forget: We're fan writers. We're like that kid in the video practicing with the lightsaber. THAT'S the image we're dealing with, here.

On to:

b.) We're not trash.

I.e., We have to prove we can write.

How the hell do we do that when LFL won't read us, no matter how good we are??? This may be the only way.

 

I know of one or two stories on the boards right now good enough to submit to professional genre contests. Seriously. If they're that creative, that imaginative, and that good, and we're willing to pay to have them read, why should they be disqualified just because they are Star Wars?? Especially when the author is willing to say, "I understand copyright law, and of course if I win I expect that the prize will have to go to the next person in line. BUT -- I'm good, I know I'm good, and I want to be judged on the same merits as everyone else." (Obviously you wouldn't use that exact phrasing.)

I realize that this is a lot of work, that it sounds like a pain in the ass (it is!), and that most people cannot afford the expense.

But, ya know? Some of us are in here, year after year, slogging it out, trying to improve our writing anyway. As an archive reviewer, someone who's edited a pro novel, and someone who's been in writer's groups with published authors for close to eight years, I feel qualified to say, some of us are producing damn good work -- for nothing! As a HOBBY. Personally, it galls me to spend a year hard at work on something I believe in but can do NOTHING with.

So, I've decided to do something. I didn't post this thread to argue the relative merits of this approach or that approach. The reason I posted this thread was to say, Look, guys, here's what I'm doing and here's why I'm doing it. If anyone's interested in doing it with me, we can help each other out.


If you are one of those rare individuals who would like to take it a step further, and experiment around with this idea, I invite you to stay and let's talk.

If you want to lobby LFL, my hat is indeed off to you, O brave soul. But I request that we please make it a separate topic, one all to itself, and leave this space for my idea. If that's OK.

 

Whew!!! Finally, it's all up!

If this thread is going to make it that difficult for me to post on it, I may ask the mods to close it and let me start a new one.

And while I'm at it, don't forget: There IS a Hugo award for fan writing. Why aren't some of us on here at least trying for that?? This could serve as a critique/prep thread for that if nothing else.

 

The major problem with turning to third parties is that if they don't own the rights to the material you're sending them, and you don't own the rights to the material you're sending them, no transaction can take place. It would be like trying to sell your neighbor's house. The fact that money doesn't always change hands in writing contests doesn't alter the fact that those with sponsors who want to stay "legit" cannot print material without the express consent of its creator. If you send them original work, then the creator is you, and you have the right to grant them permission. If you send them fanfic, you will not be considered the creator, and they won't accept your say-so as permission to accept or print the story.

There may be some contests out there that accept original work and fanfic--in fact I think I've seen some--but they appear to be little different from the FFA; there's just an "original fiction" category in them. Fanfic authors still don't use their real names, and the contests must still present themselves as very much within the amateur spectrum if they don't want lawyers knocking at their doors. From what little I've seen of these hybrid contests, the quality of work isn't any higher than you'd find here, and I don't think that association with them would improve our image any.

Edit: If you want to win a Hugo, you need to impress The World Science Fiction Society, whose members vote on them. You can't submit works or yourself as an author for a Hugo--the WSFS just has to pick them/you. If you want the "Best Fan Award," it also helps a lot to be David Langford, who, according to the 2006 ballot on Locus's website:

has been nominated in this category every year since 1979, and has won 19 times, including every year since 1989.

Langford publishes a couple of popular fanzines (not fanfic magazines--original fic by amateur fans) and writes a lot of well-received parodies. He's actually kind of a pro-but-not, but that was what the award was designed for.

 

LLL, it certainly sounds like a plan. Even if it doesn't launch One fan writer's career, it would certainly serve to earn fan writing as a Whole a degree of legitimacy. Details, please?

I'm not sure if this is relevant but I know of at least one OC story from here that was selected from several entries for 'zine printing. I think that's one of the requirements for a Hugo.

 

Hmmmm - I too know of a story with such a situation... Perhaps we are thinking of the same one....


But as we are limiting the discussion to 'established' contest (interesting to note that Lucasfilm HAS dabbled in bastardised fan fic with 'what's the Story'.

Ophelia mentioned the "you can't sell your neighbor's house" as a great analogy - hense why I still think paying 75$ for an entrance fee, reeks like the inside of a taun tatun.

 

Liz_Skywalker either runs or ran a 'zine for a while, and she contacted several authors from TFN and fanfix.com about submitting. I don't know if that's the one you're thinking of or not. Electronic publication counts toward Hugo nominations as well, though. (My post above does contain links to the Hugo FAQ and other things--they're just invisible because we have a very silly HTML style sheet. Try just waving your mouse around over it and seeing what lights up.)

Just a note--there's an older use of the term "fan-fiction" that means fiction written by fans of a genre, in this case science fiction, rather than fans of a particular TV show, book, movie, etc. "Fan-fiction" is original work written for free by SF fans, as opposed to SF pros, who get paid. The Hugos seems to use the term "fan-fiction" (written with a hyphen) in the older sense--at least one of its site pages talks about "works of fan-fiction" about alternate universes in which different cities had been chosen to host WorldCon. (Oh, the fascination.) I can't tell if they've ever awarded the "Best Fan Writer" award to an actual fanfic writer. Since I don't think Dave Langford writes fanfic and he's won every year since the FIRST Bush administration, it's been a while, at the very least.

Edit: Did some scrounging about what there was out there related to "real" awards and fanfic. The story that came up most often was panic/hilarity/apathy over the fact that a Harry Potter/CSI crossover made it onto the "long list" for the Tiptree Awards--which I had never heard of, but are apparently considered somewhat significant. Their goal is to promote gender-bending in science fiction. Even I am rendered speechless about a trinity of gender-bending/Harry Potter/CSI.

A blog article about the piece, as well as a sort of rebuttal by the "chair of the Tiptree motherboard" (whatever that means), which outlines the situation regarding fanfic and "real" awards:

This is a link to the blog article even though you can't tell because our hyperlinks look exactly the same as regular text.

This is a link to the 2005 Tiptree Awards page. The fanfic piece is at the top of the "long list" section. It's called "Arcana" by Emily Brunson.

I found this *extremely* funny, and yes, apparently it's for real. We now know that Hugo and Nebula awards have been given to a fanfic author, although not actually for his fanfic:

ROBERT J. SAWYER: "Armada" (This is a link too, although you still won't be able to tell unless you go over it with a mouse.)

This is *not* real, and please don't get suckered into thinking it is. The guy who wrote this apparently "Supershadows"/parodies the science fiction/fantasy profic world, and that's what he's doing here. If you read with an eye toward sarcasm, you can see he's not praising fanfic authors, he's insulting profic authors who churn out tons of formulaic "EZ-books" set in other people's universes.

This, too, is a link, which could be cleverly hidden in a regular paragraph, and no one would know.

There were a few other things--a blog post in which Neil Gaiman declares his apathy about fanfic, an ad for Star Trek's "Strange New Worlds II" anthology (it's a juried fanfic collection), and that article we all screamed over a couple of months ago about that lady who put her Star Wars fanfic novel up for sale on Amazon, but only because "nobody knew it was there." None of it seemed that significant, though. Maybe other people will have better luck searching than I have, but the net seems pretty silent on the topic of putting fanfic up for "real" awards.

This is a link to a page of links listing about a dozen notable fantasy and science fiction awards. The Hugos say nothing at all about whether the work of their "

 

For the record, that's really not the case the last couple of year, if you look at the facts.

Karen Traviss was signed to write Hard Contact before she had a single novel in print. She was chosen by Sue Rostoni on the strength of the manuscript for the then-forthcoming City of Pearl, which had been forwarded to Sue and Shelly Shapiro at Del-Rey by a friend at Karen's publisher.

When he was signed to write Shatterpoint, Matt Stover's first two novels were already out of print. Although his second pair (Heroes Die and Blade of Tyshalle, published by Del Rey) received some critical acclaim, they were hardly bestsellers by any stretch.

Before he wrote SW, Troy Denning had written a good number of novels, but they were all (I think) Dungeons & Dragons tie-in fiction, which I'd have to say is about one notch above fan fiction - if that - when it comes to respect... Same for Elaine Cunningham. (Admittedly, R.A. Salvatore's name does sell books, including several series aside from his D&D Drizzt books.) And Voronica Whitney-Robinson got the Galaxies novel on a whole lot less - one D&D novel, or maybe two.

And speaking of that... Wizards of the Coast (the D&D people) actually does annual open submissions to identify previously unpublished writers to write tie-in novels on a freelance basis. So if you really want to get published and noticed quickly, your best odds are probably with WOTC. They'll publish you - and they're an established feeder to LFL.

 

Yes. Yes. I know that. I've already said so above.

One more time: A "transaction" of anything of monetary value is not what I'm after here.

What I am saying is, DON'T PUBLISH ME. DON'T PRINT ME. EVEN IF I PLACE OR WIN. I understand that they can't do that.

All I want is to be seen. All I want is to be read. That's it.

If I'm going to pay to enter a contest, and I know I can't be published if I win, and I know I can't be paid if I win, and I'm going to pay just to be read anyway, and I'm telling them that up front ... how can they possibly complain? That is my point.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So far, I've heard many naysayers, people who don't like this idea, people who think it is a bad idea, and people who would never try it.

Thanks for your time in at least considering it, everyone. If something is a bad idea, it's at least good to have cooler heads around to tell you so before you waste a pile of time and effort. I think Darth Lex's advice sounds like the best advice on here. And again, what do you need to do that?? Your own original, made up story, in your own original, made up world -- NOT fan fiction.

The moral of the story is, real authors make up their own original stories and write their own original fiction. If you want to be published, give up fan fiction and make up your own story.

If you can't do that, you're not good enough to be a real author, and you won't ever be one.

Let's just forget this, and let this thread drop to the bottom.